Moral Courage or Foolishness? Ukraine.

[Fenris]

The Messiah suffered because he helped people and his followers do the same,

I'm talking about relieving suffering. Not anyone's followers. Jesus's message was to lead a good life, not that people have to suffer. Your view is either sadistic or masochistic.

I fight against evil the way the Messiah is teaching me. You also think your way is better.

I'm not talking about "fighting evil." I'm talking about relieving suffering. But you think it's important that people suffer for some inexplicable reason.

[Fenris]

I think you got the story wrong. I think what happened was, the rabbi came to the church and tried to hand the priest a gun.

"I don't like this story, so I am going to change it to a story more to my liking".

It is not healthy behavior to fabricate an alternative reality.

[Fenris]

Strategically, Syria remains an even more intractable problem - a product of inaction.

Yes but also no. At least Syria doesn't have nukes (thanks to Israeli action in 2007) and so gives is a wider set of options for action.

[Fenris]

Well, when Jesus spoke of the time Jerusalem would be surrounded by enemies, he didn't tell his disciples to kill their enemies.

Rabbi Baeck describes you to a T.

Perhaps such indifference is even more romantic than intolerance, for it is more passive. It is wholly fitting for the faith which does not want to wrestle and act, but is content to wait and experience; it is entirely commensurate with the repudiation of the Law. The moral duty of justice and the fight for justice are associated with the phase that lies in the past and has been overcome.

[Athanasius]

Because that's what the beast wants you to believe.

Oh, yeah? Well, why don't you tell me more about how the beast is corrupting my beliefs and then I'll help you make that self-fulfilling prophecy come to pass.

[RabbiKnife]

I had roast beast for lunch…

[journeyman]

I'm talking about relieving suffering. Not anyone's followers. Jesus's message was to lead a good life, not that people have to suffer. Your view is either sadistic or masochistic.

It's ironic that you don't believe Jesus is the Messah, but then tell me what his message was. What was done to him was sadistic.

I'm not talking about "fighting evil." I'm talking about relieving suffering. But you think it's important that people suffer for some inexplicable reason.

I understand it's inevitable because this world hates God and therefore,

as it is written, The reproaches of them that reproached thee fell on me. Rom.15:3

You simply don't want the Messiah who showed in flesh the grief his Father feels in Spirit when mankind sins against him.

[journeyman]

]"I don't like this story, so I am going to change it to a story more to my liking".

It is not healthy behavior to fabricate an alternative reality.

That was your point, wasn't it?  People who refuse to take up arms are the same as people who refuse to harbor children in need???Personally, I've never met a Christian who wouldn't help a child.

[journeyman]

Rabbi Baeck describes you to a T.

Perhaps such indifference is even more romantic than intolerance, for it is more passive. It is wholly fitting for the faith which does not want to wrestle and act, but is content to wait and experience; it is entirely commensurate with the repudiation of the Law. The moral duty of justice and the fight for justice are associated with the phase that lies in the past and has been overcome.

I understand your rabbis misconception of what the Messiah does.

[journeyman]

Oh, yeah? Well, why don't you tell me more about how the beast is corrupting my beliefs and then I'll help you make that self-fulfilling prophecy come to pass.

It's not only you. I heard a well known Christian radio personality discussing the war in the Ukraine. I listened to this hour long program and not once was the gospel mentioned. Our Lords command to reach wicked sinners by his gospel was ignored.

[IMINXTC]

It's not only you. I heard a well known Christian radio personality discussing the war in the Ukraine. I listened to this hour long program and not once was the gospel mentioned.

This is completely irrelevant. And, by the way, there are many believers in Ukraine as the nation is well acquainted with the Gospel.

Our Lords command to reach wicked sinners by his gospel was ignored.

You intimate that these besieged Ukrainians are somehow more wicked and needful of the Gospel than others.

Yes, tell them about salvation in Christ as you, by all means, meet their immediate needs, which also involves their defense, when and if you are able.

[Slug1]

It's not only you. I heard a well known Christian radio personality discussing the war in the Ukraine. I listened to this hour long program and not once was the gospel mentioned.

This is completely irrelevant. And, by the way, there are many believers in Ukraine as the nation is well acquainted with the Gospel.

Our Lords command to reach wicked sinners by his gospel was ignored.

You intimate that these besieged Ukrainians are somehow more wicked and needful of the Gospel than others.

Yes, tell them about salvation in Christ as you, by all means, meet their immediate needs, which also involves their defense.

The last statistic I read, 71-78 % of the Ukrainian population is Christian.

[Athanasius]

It's not only you. I heard a well known Christian radio personality discussing the war in the Ukraine. I listened to this hour long program and not once was the gospel mentioned. Our Lords command to reach wicked sinners by his gospel was ignored.

Enjoy your weekend off. Suggesting nebulous Christian radio personalities, let alone other Christians you directly interact with, are Satanically deceived is unacceptable.

[RandyPNW]

Yes, that's been a major dilemma. We see all these heart-breaking pictures of people leaving in droves, losing their home and possessions, and their men. And yet biblically, we know that divine judgment comes to corrupt nations.

And then Job turned to his friend Randy and replied... Or perhaps Abraham said, "Far be it from you [Lord] to do such a thing -- to kill the righteous with the wicked, treating the righteous and the wicked alike". I very much doubt this is divine justice.

What it is, is:

- A megalomaniacal leader who has clearly lost his mind or is in the grips of desperation (impending death?). Either must be the case because everyone knows, even Putin, that a good way to lose a war is to invade Ukraine. This has always been known.
- A country that has gone apoplectic at the thought of US missile defence systems in Eastern Europe; EU and NATO membership for Ukraine, the possibility of US military basis in Crimea. Think missiles in Cuba. What outrage would the US engage in should Russia or Iran set up basis in Canada, or Mexico?
- Evil men who will say they were only obeying orders. Driving a tank blowing up cars with old couples in them is not justice. What was the evil Job's dead family did, again?

There's no need to bring God into it, as Ukraine had begun working on its corruption. Ukraine should have always been a buffer: no NATO, no military basis, and everyone leave it alone. Military parades for NATO leaders were a stupid show of force and intention, but that in no way excuses Russia. This is a stupid, senseless, needless war that ought to have been handled diplomatically.

Putin is clearly not of his right mind, so all bets are off.

You bring up some important points. 1) Both Russia and Ukraine are corrupt. 2) NATO drew close to Russia's "bubble," or comfort zone. So, is NATO's close proximity to Russia the equivalent of the Soviet proximity to US during the Cuban Missile Crisis?

Well, it's a good comparison, but no--not the same thing. It is well, however, to understand that that's how Russia sees it. The Soviet era, which Putin is reviving, was an explicit competition between Communist expansion and Capitalist expansion.

The big difference was that after WW2 the Iron Curtain was an imposition by Russia upon Eastern Europe, whereas the West was more in a kind of "colonialist" mindset, establishing spheres of interest for markets. Both obviously had their abuses, but I think the Soviet expansion, by force, into E. Europe was far, far worse.

So the Cuban Missile Crisis had the mind-set of the Soviets to deal with, in which they aggressively conquered perceived enemies, while the Ukraine Crisis was hardly a militaristic imposition upon Ukraine by the West. I would state, again, my belief, that ultimately, both E. and W. Europe will all be part of a single military alliance, a union of the old NATO and Warsaw Pact entities.

I see no reason for Putin to be paranoid over NATO, except that it is a relic of past animosity between the Soviets and W. Europe. NATO is interested only in preserving the autonomy of independent states. It is no threat to Russia except if it returns to Soviet-style military aggression.

As far as Ukraine corruption, there is little question they have had a dark past. And why the US leadership is concerned is a mixed bag. I think some of it may be US corruption, being in bed with Ukrainian elites. But some of it is simply human compassion for a helpless people victimized by the reemergence of old Soviet-style aggression. This threatens the political stability of Europe, which should be everybody's concern, along with simply human compassion.

[RandyPNW]

I took a day or two off, and reread this thread. The injection of Jesus' theology into this was interesting, and I thought the responses also intelligent and interesting. I wouldn't at all discourage the application of Jesus to theory about responding to world crises! Of course, the theological interpretation is subject to scrutiny.

The question of *which conflict* is more important to address, and how to address it, individually, is also interesting. While our political interests determine what crisis to address, it does not mean that one kind of suffering is more important than another kind of suffering.

It is really a heady question because it is all explained in geo-politics and in the mind of God, prophetically. Which corruptions are important to God? All of them.

How is each case dealt with? Unevenly, because nations and people are inherently selfish and corrupt.

What international problems get dealt with and how? Part of it is God letting nations express their corruption, and part of it is the freedom of both good and evil people to respond accordingly. In the end, God still controls the outcome, prophetically.

I know this resolves nothing. But it does make me think. I would agree that sometimes prayer and making our positions heard is helpful. And I do think that those pursuing the good should help the weak and vulnerable--our brother and neighbor.

But there is also a time we need to face the reality that things are outside our sphere of influence, ie out of "our lane." May God grant our respective nations wisdom to know the difference!