Moral Courage or Foolishness? Ukraine.

[Fenris]

The Messiah didn't ignore human suffering. He bore it head on.

This is an amazing theological statement. Because Jesus accepted suffering on himself, we are absolved from removing the suffering of other people? And you think this is moral?

[Fenris]

And why does the God you believe in put up with the sins of mankind every day?

What does this have to do with you ignoring human suffering?

[Fenris]

All actions of all people are sinful.

What does this have to do with ignoring human suffering?

[Fenris]

I'm reminded of the story of a rabbi beseeching a Catholic priest to help him save Jewish children during the Holocaust. The priest demurred, saying that he would not discuss "profane matters" on Sunday, a holy day.  Saving Jewish children's lives were a "profane matter" to him! That's the feeling I'm getting here from some of you. Saying that "the Ukraine is corrupt" of that "Jesus also suffered" is somehow an excuse for ignoring massive human suffering? You really think that this is what God wants you to do?

[IMINXTC]

No. It's near unbearable to watch this suffering on the hourly basis, and not being able to effectively respond personally is agony.

The theological stance that would prevent the believer from coming to the immediate aid of anyone, enemy or friend, suffering like this is, in short, twisted.

The notion that people are simply receiving their due is equally contrary to even the most basic principles of the faith and humanity, and Christ in no way taught such a thing.

[RabbiKnife]

OK, let's get down to the nitty gritty.

First, wars are not initiated or maintained by individual believers in either the Jewish or Christian faith.  War is not an individual issue, unless one finds oneself either in the middle of the conflict or raising an army aka Joan D'Arc.  No one on this forum has the power to either stop Putin or to stop the corruption in Ukraine or to stop the corruption in Washington DC.

Second, no one is ignoring or excusing massive human suffering -- except for the suffering of the Uyghurs, the Armenians, the Sudan, Yemen, South Africa, Nelpal, northern Mexico, Myanmar, Syria, Lebanon, yada yada yada.  Massive human suffering has been almost since the beginning of time until the present, yet often, we rise to defend or decry the latest "pop" war, the one with the best press. 

No one has said that Putin is justified, or that real humans with real skin in the Ukraine are not fleeing from Putin's invasion, but except for those being wounded or killed, I would believe that fewer Ukrainians are enduring actually "massive human suffering" in any greater degree than any of those in any of the other armed conflicts in the world today and certainly not on the scale of human history, as anyone with any inkling of knowledge of pre-WWII Europe or the Holocaust knows.  The Ukrainians do have better press, in part, because of the politics of the USA and western Europe.

The analogy of a stupid, ungodly Catholic priest using the idea of a "holy day" -- which Sunday is not -- to excuse assisting a human right in front of him is hardly evidence or even good analogy for what has been said on this forum.  If that occured, that priest is obviously both an idiot and morally bankrupt.  Emotions run high in these days, but let's not fall for the error of attributing moral malfeasance to anyone that doesn't see life exactly as we see it.

And saying Jesus also suffered is the mother of all non sequiturs. 

I can't speak for Jewish theology or practice, or what any Rabbi may have said in the past or present.  Not my lane.  I can speak as to what Christianity has taught.  I have no excuses for those that have named the name of Jesus in the past when they did not demonstrate that they knew Jesus Christ from the Jesus that cuts their lawn. 

Christianity only has two positions on war, those of pacifism and Just War theory.  Just War theory doesn't apply unless you are in the fight.

So the question is, "what does any person of faith do in the current situation regarding the invasion of Ukraine by Russia?"

First, obviously, pray.  God isn't surprised, He isn't worried, and He's still more than powerful enough to do whatever He deems necessary.

Second, unless you want to join the Ukrainian Foreign Legion and go fight, then petition your government.  Your congressional delegation, the President. 

Third, either give monetarily or by volunteering to support a humanitarian relief organization that will actually help the people in current distress.

Fourth, continue to dialogue with friends, family, co-workers, about both facts and feelings, but don't let this issue become a point of division among people of good will and faith, as Satan's first tool is always divide and conquer. 

[RabbiKnife]

I'll be as transparent as I can.

Maybe you guys are just more godly that I, but anything to do with the Ukraine is so far removed from the human suffering I deal with every day that I can barely even register it on my "give a damn" scale.  That's probably sinful, but I have a hard time getting my knickers in a twist over the fate of a nation and its citizens that have been involved in intra-nicene conflict  thousands of miles away across an ocean when I have situations in my life right now with children being abused by their parents and the system, with justice being a farce in both the civil and criminal judicial systems in my work, and with other humans actively working to defeat justice and all sense of human decency.

Maybe I'm just a small man, but on the scale of concerns I have in which I have any engagement or even power to engage...

[Fenris]

So we can get back to the original topic. What is being done, and what should be done?

[journeyman]

The Jesus of John 18 and Matthew 10 wasn't concerned with defeating his enemies within the context we're discussing. The Jesus of Revelation is a different story. Either way, your appeal is misguided, and I'm not saying I have a better way to defeat my enemies than Jesus.

The "revelation" of Jesus Christ is about knowimg him and is no different from the gispels. Go to battle now, because when he returns, the war is over.

What value do you bring to these discussions? Because no one has to hear anything from you.

I'm speaking of the gospel. Of course no one has to listen.

How very Platonic. But even Socrates went to war.

Jesus went to war every day. So do his followers.

[journeyman]

This is an amazing theological statement. Because Jesus accepted suffering on himself, we are absolved from removing the suffering of other people? And you think this is moral?

The Messiah suffered because he helped people and his followers do the same,

For even hereunto were ye called: because Christ also suffered for us, leaving us an example, that ye should follow his steps: 1Pet.2:21

What does this have to do with you ignoring human suffering?

I fight against evil the way the Messiah is teaching me. You also think your way is better.

[journeyman]

I'm reminded of the story of a rabbi beseeching a Catholic priest to help him save Jewish children during the Holocaust. The priest demurred, saying that he would not discuss "profane matters" on Sunday, a holy day.  Saving Jewish children's lives were a "profane matter" to him! That's the feeling I'm getting here from some of you. Saying that "the Ukraine is corrupt" of that "Jesus also suffered" is somehow an excuse for ignoring massive human suffering? You really think that this is what God wants you to do?

I think you got the story wrong. I think what happened was, the rabbi came to the church and tried to hand the priest a gun.

[IMINXTC]

Strategically, Syria remains an even more intractable problem - a product of inaction.

[Athanasius]

So we can get back to the original topic. What is being done, and what should be done?

Donating to efforts seems to be one thing people are doing.

[Athanasius]

I'm speaking of the gospel. Of course no one has to listen.

As the man said: people aren't going to care what you say if they don't think you care about them. Strange gospel you have, there.

[journeyman]

As the man said: people aren't going to care what you say if they don't think you care about them. Strange gospel you have, there.

Well, when Jesus spoke of the time Jerusalem would be surrounded by enemies, he didn't tell his disciples to kill their enemies. But you hit the nail on the head when you said,

This war isn't about Jesus and his followers allowing what they allowed to happen to them, in line with God's plan for Jesus and the apostles.

Because that's what the beast wants you to believe.

Ye have heard that it hath been said, Thou shalt love thy neighbour, and hate thine enemy. But I say unto you, Love your enemies, bless them that curse you, do good to them that hate you, and pray for them which despitefully use you, and persecute you; That ye may be the children of your Father which is in heaven: for he maketh his sun to rise on the evil and on the good, and sendeth rain on the just and on the unjust. For if ye love them which love you, what reward have ye? do not even the publicans the same? And if ye salute your brethren only, what do ye more than others? do not even the publicans so? Be ye therefore perfect, even as your Father which is in heaven is perfect.

Our Savior laid that sword against the head of that beast, but people are worshipping the beast still.