Gog's endtime construction?

[Fenris]

So, to summarize:

We have one Christian trying to teach me about Judaism and another spouting random verses from the bible and telling me that I really worship the devil.

Let's try and elevate the level of discourse.

[Athanasius]

May we flirt with boredom once more (Oseas won't be participating further).

[RandyPNW]

So, to summarize:

We have one Christian trying to teach me about Judaism and another spouting random verses from the bible and telling me that I really worship the devil.

Let's try and elevate the level of discourse.

Please allow me to correct what I think is an error here. I am not sure whether you are referring to me, as the one who trying to "teach you about Judaism?" But having just today discussed this with you I can see that you haven't understood my point.

In case you think so let me first set you straight: I am *not* trying to teach you Judaism as that religion defines itself. It is for Jews to define Judaism for themselves, since it is their practice--not mine.

But when it comes to the Scriptures, these books can be called either the Jewish Bible or the Christian Bible. Both Jews and Christians lay claim to the Bible, and Christians would say that they are both, since both testaments were written by Hebrews.

Since Christians have their own interpretation of the Jewish Bible, as explained in the NT Bible, we Christians have every right to present what our own faith is, and how it views Judaism. We can place our own stamp of approval on Judaism or not.

As such, Christians don't believe Judaism in the NT era, has in any way represented what the Jewish Bible intended for that religion to be. We believe it was intended to become Christianity, a Jewish religion that we believe God intended to go international.

Christianity believes in ecumenism, and Judaism believes in inclusivism. Both are respectable traits. But never have I tried to define how Jews practice their own religion. I'm just judging whether Jewish religion properly conforms to their Bible, based on how Christians interpret it.

I'm sure there have been many Hebrews in ancient history who believed that they could mix idol worship with their practice of the Law. And they would've had the right to define their own religion as such.

But other Jews would've retained the right to judge this mixture of polytheism with monotheism as inconsistent, based on their own interpretation of the Law, and based on their own religious standards. It is not a matter of dictating what a religion, like Judaism, is, but rather, a matter of judging whether it is right or not.

[Fenris]

Please allow me to correct what I think is an error here. I am not sure whether you are referring to me, as the one who trying to "teach you about Judaism?"

Yes, you're trying to teach me about Judaism. Obviously you're the expert.

[RandyPNW]

Please allow me to correct what I think is an error here. I am not sure whether you are referring to me, as the one who trying to "teach you about Judaism?"

Yes, you're trying to teach me about Judaism. Obviously you're the expert.

OK, we're done. I think just about any objective observer can see that I'm not trying to teach you about Judaism's beliefs. I don't even know Judaism's beliefs that well.

I'm trying to teach you what I think Judaism *should be teaching,* based on my own beliefs and interpretation of the Bible.

[Athanasius]

I think just about any objective observer can see that I'm not trying to teach you about Judaism's beliefs. I don't even know Judaism's beliefs that well.

I'm trying to teach you what I think Judaism *should be teaching,* based on my own beliefs and interpretation of the Bible.

Sigh, let's try to take a break without me locking the thread. For now, I'm going to steal the last word --

The objective observer will understand that teaching someone about what some thing ought to teach, is to make a judgment on what that some thing does teach, such that knowledge of both teachings (in this case, beliefs) is assumed if one is going to say, "don't teach X, instead, teach Y". If there is no such knowledge, or the knowledge is lacking, then there is a problem.

Now, let's resist the temptation for a day or so because if I have to lock the thread that will be a lame indictment of our self-control.

[RandyPNW]

I think just about any objective observer can see that I'm not trying to teach you about Judaism's beliefs. I don't even know Judaism's beliefs that well.

I'm trying to teach you what I think Judaism *should be teaching,* based on my own beliefs and interpretation of the Bible.

Sigh, let's try to take a break without me locking the thread. For now, I'm going to steal the last word --

The objective observer will understand that teaching someone about what some thing ought to teach, is to make a judgment on what that some thing does teach, such that knowledge of both teachings (in this case, beliefs) is assumed if one is going to say, "don't teach X, instead, teach Y". If there is no such knowledge, or the knowledge is lacking, then there is a problem.

Now, let's resist the temptation for a day or so because if I have to lock the thread that will be a lame indictment of our self-control.

Yes, we should do everything to build others in Christ up, and to be a good testimony to others. At various times, regardless of how we feel about something, if nothing good will take place, it's good to resist the temptation to "get the last word!"

Sadly, when closure doesn't happen, issues tend to pop up again later. If they do, I hope that it will come across in a less offensive way.

I don't want to think the worst of this forum, so I will try one more time to present my thoughts on this subject, apart from this particular thread, and hopefully avoid any more discussion with Fenris.

Has it occurred to anybody that he is not a Christian and is trying to paint Judaism as "truth" for the Jewish People? It is only *his truth,* and not *truth for the Jewish People!* If Christians allow that to stand, it completely nullifies our witness to the Jewish People!

If I become a victim of a kind of Cancel Culture, then I know I have no place here. I can tolerate a lot of things--the one thing I cannot tolerate is censorship, particularly when it cancels Christian thought and offers no defense.

[Athanasius]

Has it occurred to anybody that he is not a Christian and is trying to paint Judaism as "truth" for the Jewish People? It is only *his truth,* and not *truth for the Jewish People!* If Christians allow that to stand, it completely nullifies our witness to the Jewish People!

I think we're more in danger of confusing Fenris for an Asgardian than we are of forgetting that he's Jewish. You knew what conversation you were getting to when you replied to him: you were going to get his Jewish view of the matter.

So, what exactly am I allowing to stand that's nullifying our witness 'to the Jewish People!'? Are you asking me to censor or otherwise restrict the things Fenris can write while raising the demon of 'cancel culture' for yourself?

If I become a victim of a kind of Cancel Culture, then I know I have no place here. I can tolerate a lot of things--the one thing I cannot tolerate is censorship, particularly when it cancels Christian thought and offers no defense.

If you want to be 'cancelled' you need only say things like, "the father of all Jews is Satan" and otherwise put forward any number of Biblically misinformed, anti-semitic views. But then, you aren't being 'cancelled', and you're in no danger of being 'cancelled' as far as I can see. It's a forum, the views you present are often taken to task. Welcome to the conversation. Taken aback much?

[IMINXTC]

I've known many Jews over the years who have come to Christ and who have remained friends and continue to be active witnesses, particularly in the mission field.

Several are very steeped in Jewish culture and most are highly skilled in the scriptures and transmission of the Bible.

I am especially familiar with "Jews For Jesus" and continue to follow their work.

The common denominator among these Jewish Christians is a conviction that is shared with Protestant believers of all sorts: the authority and sufficiency of the scriptures.

If "Christ in all the Scriptures" does not convince, isms and culture are near hopeless tools and endless arguments.

"Search the scriptures; for in them ye think ye have eternal life: and they are they which testify of me. Jn 5:39

[RandyPNW]

I've known many Jews over the years who have come to Christ and who have remained friends and continue to be active witnesses, particularly in the mission field.

Several are very steeped in Jewish culture and most are highly skilled in the scriptures and transmission of the Bible.

I am especially familiar with "Jews For Jesus" and continue to follow their work.

The common denominator among these Jewish Christians is a conviction that is shared with Protestant believers of all sorts: the authority and sufficiency of the scriptures.

If "Christ in all the Scriptures" does not convince, isms and culture are near hopeless tools and endless arguments.

"Search the scriptures; for in them ye think ye have eternal life: and they are they which testify of me. Jn 5:39

I agree. I favor a Christian culture because God indicated that in the OT Bible, and also because it is in our interest to have a just society.

The culture is to allow for the greatest freedom for Christian expression, and that expresses the heart of God. I'm not interested in pleasing man, but rather, in pleasing God.

Those who don't wish to follow my vision of godliness are entitled to do so up to the standards that a Christian society will allow under the Scriptures. And God's theocracies of the past have never required Inquisitions--only reasonable good behavior.

In a Christian society one doesn't have to sign on to the Christian Constitution--he only may not speak out against it as a form of sedition. God's theocracies have never been liberal democracies, except in the modern world.

[Athanasius]

And God's theocracies of the past have never required Inquisitions--only reasonable good behavior.

You uh, super duper confident about that? I mean, if we look at the ANE for just a little bit...

[RandyPNW]

What is the acronym ANE? What country are you speaking from?

[Athanasius]

What is the acronym ANE? What country are you speaking from?

Ancient
Near
East

[RandyPNW]

What is the acronym ANE? What country are you speaking from?

Ancient
Near
East

Gotcha. Yes, I'm referring to God's *ideal* theocracies. He gave His Law to Israel--that was the ideal setup--no Inquistions.

Many liberals have tried to paint God's Law as evil, bigoted, and inhumane. After all, God wanted Israel to completely erase the 7 pagan nations of Canaan. They ignore the fact that God is patient and gave these nations ample opportunity to repent, and only acted when their violence and rebellion against God's Law became so great that He was done with them.

There is a lot of mercy and understanding, as well as tolerance under the Mosaic Law. In fact, the Law contained within it the means of forgiveness, as well as cleansing--something that is foreign to our judicial systems today. There is a taint and a record that goes along with doing wrong in our societies today.

But God is forgiving and forgets sins, so to speak. That is, He doesn't hold anything against us, even if it seems so, due to the need to "correct us" and "change us."

So the Law was a theocracy but it was also merciful and compassionate. It did not judge pagan nations who didn't know any better except in ways to correct them over time through the human conscience.

And so, Christian nations could live with Jews in their midst without forcing them to sign onto the Christian religion. Christians were largely, by the Gospel, to witness to Christ, and not judge by appearances, nor to be quick to judgment. Our goal is to *win* the soul, not force it down their throat. I think we are agreed on that?

[Athanasius]

Gotcha. Yes, I'm referring to God's *ideal* theocracies. He gave His Law to Israel--that was the ideal setup--no Inquistions.

Did God have non-ideal theocracies? I'm not sure I know what this means.

Sure, the Abrahamic, let's say, theocracies of the past won't have Monty Python showing up any time soon, but let's not pretend that there weren't severe consequences of lapses of faith and disobedience. If you don't want to use the word 'inquisition' that's up to you, but I don't think anyone else is buying.

But why are you even making such a claim in the first place?

Many liberals have tried to paint God's Law as evil, bigoted, and inhumane. After all, God wanted Israel to completely erase the 7 pagan nations of Canaan. They ignore the fact that God is patient and gave these nations ample opportunity to repent, and only acted when their violence and rebellion against God's Law became so great that He was done with them.

The problem isn't what liberals have tried to do, it's what people try to do with the w/Word of God. If the liberals try to paint as evil, then the conservative temptation is to apply without love. There's no left and right division, or red and blue, or Republican or Democrat. This group politik doesn't help anyone. Liberals aren't your enemy.

There is a lot of mercy and understanding, as well as tolerance under the Mosaic Law. In fact, the Law contained within it the means of forgiveness, as well as cleansing--something that is foreign to our judicial systems today. There is a taint and a record that goes along with doing wrong in our societies today.

If it were possible I'd say there were some rose-tinted glasses lying around. Judaism at the time wasn't without its issues, and I don't know about you, but the Law seems pretty harsh to me. But that's just coming from would-have-been-stoned-4,000-years-ago-little-old-me.

And so, Christian nations could live with Jews in their midst without forcing them to sign onto the Christian religion. Christians were largely, by the Gospel, to witness to Christ, and not judge by appearances, nor to be quick to judgment. Our goal is to *win* the soul, not force it down their throat. I think we are agreed on that?

Win the soul --> "my issue with Judaism"
"If Christians allow that to stand, it completely nullifies our witness to the Jewish People!"

You still haven't told me what I'm allowing to stand that's nullifying... 'our'? Witness to the Jewish person!