Israel's Salvation

[RandyPNW]

This may be somewhat controversial, because some of my friends here are not Premillennial, and I am. However, I was asked by a friend, who believes "Israel" is the Church, "What is the basis of your belief that Natural Israel will be saved?" I've had a long-standing, somewhat-friendly discussion with him about this. And I thought I'd let you in on some of my thinking, right or wrong. Here's his question, and my answer...

Brother:
What would convince me, would be a scripture that says the Jews will be forgiven and redeemed.

All I can see are the ones which tell of their virtual demise.

In Isaiah 22:14 The Lord says: Assuredly your [the House of Judah] wickedness will never be wiped out, you will die for your sins.

My Answer:
I can't say anything definitively, brother, because this is all future business--it's speculative. Like you, I love the word of God and have been studying it over 50 years. I've gone over every page of the prophets and circled virtually every verse, but there are still lots of things I don't know like the back of my hand. I have a bird's eye view, but that bird is a little myopic, and things remain somewhat blurry.

I've favored the Jews because I've studied them for about as long as I've studied prophecy. And I believe the reason they are judged so harshly is because as a people they were given to know better. As the few sinned, sin spread, until sin won over the majority. Everybody caved to their weakness, save a few.

Well, God it seems decided to no longer call the nation as a race, but now as a religion. This would make the standard for their salvation based not on their race, but on their religious integrity. Christianity became the standard, and Israel as a nation would have to be rebuilt on the religion.

So we do have an emphasis on tearing down the race in favor of the few who are properly religious--the faithful remnant. But that doesn't prevent that remnant from one day becoming the foundation upon which the nation is revived and restored.

If you look at the Prophets, there are many references to a "final restoration" of Israel, never more to be exiled, defeated, or punished. They are there, and that's why I hold to the position I do.

Not only that, but it gives hope not just to individuals but also to society where individuals have to live. Is it any great comfort for an individual to enjoy spiritual life but have to live in an unjust society?

And so, I believe God has always wished to save the society and the nation, as well as the individual. Saving the nation is a matter of delivering it from the influence of sinners, who cause the masses to stray, bringing upon them judgment from God and enemies to that nation. If the nation is guarded against corruption, not all will be saved, but the society will be able to withstand pressures to cave to sin, and thus avoid the destruction of the nation.

This is what I mean by the promise of salvation of the nation. It begins with the spirituality of a few, and ends with the adoption, by the majority, of the Christian standard. And this in turn saves the nations from its enemies, who would destroy them by the hand of God if they return to sin.

End of Discussion: I welcome all comments/insights, no matter what you believe on this.

[Quantrill]

@RandyPNW

I too see Israel and the Church as two separate bodies of believers. 

And I agree that a believer living in an 'unjust society' or one not centered on the true God is miserable for the believer in God and Christ. 

I know there is the tendency of some believers to reject or ignore the politics of a nation, as though that is unspiritual.  Yet God always seems to provide a safe political environment for His  people.   He did so with Israel when he went down into Egypt with Joseph  as a ruler there.  He did so with Israel in taking them to the promised land and destroying their enemies.  I believe He did so with the Church in establishing Europe and the U.S. as great Christian centers.   

Of course I do not discount the spiritual warfare that takes place with this also.  Our  arch-enemy satan is always working against this political safety.  All of which is envolved in satan's 'mystery of iniquity' and the Holy Spirit's effort of resistance. (2 Thess. 2:7)

Lees

[RabbiKnife]

I think Paul would beg to differ with the opinion that "Israel and the Church are two separate bodies of believers."


Ephesians 4: 4-6 There is one body, and one Spirit, even as ye are called in one hope of your calling;  5 One Lord, one faith, one baptism, 6 One God and Father of all, who is above all, and through all, and in you all.

1 Cor. 12:13:  For by one Spirit we were all baptized into one body, whether Jews or Greeks, whether slaves or free, and we were all made to drink of one Spirit.

All of Romans 11

[Athanasius]

Yet God always seems to provide a safe political environment for His people.

And Diocletian said to Nero, "challenge accepted".

[Quantrill]

I think Paul would beg to differ with the opinion that "Israel and the Church are two separate bodies of believers."


Ephesians 4: 4-6 There is one body, and one Spirit, even as ye are called in one hope of your calling;  5 One Lord, one faith, one baptism, 6 One God and Father of all, who is above all, and through all, and in you all.

1 Cor. 12:13:  For by one Spirit we were all baptized into one body, whether Jews or Greeks, whether slaves or free, and we were all made to drink of one Spirit.

All of Romans 11

(Eph. 4:4-6) speak to the Church only.  As does (1 Cor. 12:13) also.  (Rom. 11) speaks to Israel in contrast with the Gentiles. 

Paul would agree that God is not finished with Israel, as many Gentiles are led to believe. 

Lees

[Quantrill]

Yet God always seems to provide a safe political environment for His people.

And Diocletian said to Nero, "challenge accepted".

As I said, I recognize the spiritual war from satan against this.   Thus you have the times of persecution. 

God still establishes a political safety for His people.

Lees

[RabbiKnife]

I'm sorry, my friend, but you have to bring a predetermined pretribulational dispensational worldview into 1 Cor 12 in order to try to say that there are two separate bodies of believers.

It's just disingenuous to say otherwise from the text.  Yes, we was writing to the church, but that doesn't change the truth of what he said.

This effort to create a divided body drives Jesus nuts.

[RabbiKnife]

Yet God always seems to provide a safe political environment for His people.

And Diocletian said to Nero, "challenge accepted".

As I said, I recognize the spiritual war from satan against this.   Thus you have the times of persecution. 

God still establishes a political safety for His people.

Lees

Eh.  I don't thing Peter felt very political safe as the centurion drove the nail, nor Paul as the executioner's sword fell, even though he was a citizen of Rome.

The folks in Revelation certainly didn't feel very politcally safe.

[Fenris]

Yet God always seems to provide a safe political environment for His people.

And Diocletian said to Nero, "challenge accepted".

You're on a roll lately.   

[Fenris]

Yet God always seems to provide a safe political environment for His  people.   

When they deserved it. See Lev 26 or Deut 28.

[Athanasius]

You're on a roll lately.   

I just figure that if I'm living in an 'unjust society', one not centred 'on the true God', yet not miserable, then I might as well wildly abandon myself to the most irresponsibly creative rhetoric; for what else is there to do but conclude that my lack of misery betrays a lack of faith in God and Christ?

[Quantrill]

Eh.  I don't thing Peter felt very political safe as the centurion drove the nail, nor Paul as the executioner's sword fell, even though he was a citizen of Rome.

The folks in Revelation certainly didn't feel very politcally safe.

You didn't pay attention to what I said.

Lees

[Quantrill]

When they deserved it. See Lev 26 or Deut 28.

I doubt they/we ever deserve it.  But there does come times when God certainly removes it.

Lees

[Fenris]

When they deserved it. See Lev 26 or Deut 28.

I doubt they/we ever deserve it.  But there does come times when God certainly removes it.

Lees

Yet you just said "Yet God always seems to provide a safe political environment for His  people." Now you're saying He doesn't. Do you believe in anything at all? 

[Fenris]

You're on a roll lately.   

I just figure that if I'm living in an 'unjust society', one not centred 'on the true God', yet not miserable, then I might as well wildly abandon myself to the most irresponsibly creative rhetoric; for what else is there to do but conclude that my lack of misery betrays a lack of faith in God and Christ?

It's all so confusing, isn't it?