Israel's Salvation

[Oseas]

@RandyPNW

I too see Israel and the Church as two separate bodies of believers. 
Lees

Very interesting vision. The Word of GOD REVEALS there are two redeemers. One for the original and legitimate Israel, and another for the Gentile peoples. I would say: The Person of JESUS and the person of the Holy Spirit: John 16:v.7 to 15 . Check it.

Why do I am saying this? Here goes what the Word of GOD reveals about TWO REDEEMERS, I think this is marvelous, wonderful, glorious, as well as I marvel knowing that David had gentilic blood in his body. GOD IS IN CONTROL OF THE HISTORY, NOTHING RANDOM HAPPENS.

RUTH CHAPTER 4  (whoso readeth, let him understand:)

1 Then went Boaz up to the gate, and sat him down there: and, behold, the kinsman of whom Boaz spake came by; unto whom he said, Ho, such a one!(WHO IS THIS MYSTERIOUS ONE?) turn aside, sit down here. And he turned aside, and sat down.

2 And he took ten men of the elders of the city, and said, Sit ye down here. And they sat down.

3 And he said unto the kinsman, Naomi, that is come again out of the country of Moab, selleth a parcel of land, which was our brother Elimelech's:

4 And I thought to advertise thee, saying, Buy it before the inhabitants, and before the elders of my people. If thou wilt redeem it, redeem it: but if thou wilt not redeem it, then tell me, that I may know: for there is none to redeem it beside thee; and I am after thee. And he said, I WILL REDEEM IT.

5 Then said Boaz, What day thou buyest the field of the hand of Naomi, thou must buy it also of Ruth the Moabitess, the wife of the dead, to raise up the name of the dead upon his inheritance.

6 And the kinsman said, I cannot redeem it for myself, lest I mar MINE OWN INHERITANCE: redeem thou MY RIGHT TO THYSELF; FOR I CANNOT REDEEM IT.

7 Now this was the manner in former time in Israel concerning redeeming and concerning changing, for to confirm all things; a man plucked off his shoe, and gave it to his neighbour: and this was a testimony in Israel.

8 Therefore the kinsman said unto Boaz, Buy it for thee. So he drew off his shoe.

9 And Boaz said unto the elders, and unto all the people, Ye are witnesses this day, that I have bought all that was Elimelech's, and all that was Chilion's and Mahlon's, of the hand of Naomi.

10 Moreover Ruth the Moabitess, the wife of Mahlon, have I purchased to be my wife, to raise up the name of the dead upon his inheritance, that the name of the dead be not cut off from among his brethren, and from the gate of his place: ye are witnesses this day.

11 And all the people that were in the gate, and the elders, said, We are witnesses. The Lord make the woman that is come into thine house like Rachel and like Leah, which two did build the house of Israel: and do thou worthily in Ephratah, and be famous in Bethlehem:

12 And let thy house be like the house of Pharez, whom Tamar bare unto Judah, of the seed which the Lord shall give thee of this young woman.

13 So Boaz took Ruth, and she was his wife: and when he went in unto her, the Lord gave her conception, and she bare a son.

14 And the women said unto Naomi, Blessed be the Lord, which hath not left thee this day without a kinsman, that his name may be famous in Israel.

15 And he shall be unto thee a restorer of thy life, and a nourisher of thine old age: for thy daughter in law, which loveth thee, which is better to thee than seven sons, hath born him.

16 And Naomi took the child, and laid it in her bosom, and became nurse unto it.

17 And the women her neighbours gave it a name, saying, There is a son born to Naomi; and they called his name Obed: he is the father of Jesse, the father of David.

18 Now these are the generations of Pharez: Pharez begat Hezron,

19 And Hezron begat Ram, and Ram begat Amminadab,[/color]

20 And Amminadab begat Nahshon, and Nahshon begat Salmon,

21 And Salmon begat Boaz, and Boaz begat Obed,

22 And Obed begat Jesse, and Jesse begat David.

[RandyPNW]

I'm sorry, my friend, but you have to bring a predetermined pretribulational dispensational worldview into 1 Cor 12 in order to try to say that there are two separate bodies of believers.

It's just disingenuous to say otherwise from the text.  Yes, we was writing to the church, but that doesn't change the truth of what he said.

This effort to create a divided body drives Jesus nuts.

Having more than one godly nation doesn't drive Jesus nuts. God Himself separated the world into nations, and I'm sure He hopes each nation will be a godly nation. If more than one nation becomes godly, there is only unity between them--not division.

Having a universal Christian religion and a Christian nation is not a contradiction. It is an affirmation of an international Gospel, since if one nation can become a Christian nation, then any nation can become Christian.

Rom 9-11 absolutely affirms the salvation of national Israel and the salvation of the Jewish race. You would surely have to unravel what Paul said to say something else to deny this.

[RandyPNW]

You're on a roll lately.   

I just figure that if I'm living in an 'unjust society', one not centred 'on the true God', yet not miserable, then I might as well wildly abandon myself to the most irresponsibly creative rhetoric; for what else is there to do but conclude that my lack of misery betrays a lack of faith in God and Christ?

It's not a lack of faith. You just have to open your eyes to see the misery of others to be miserable yourself. And ultimately, as hard as you try not to be miserable you will be miserable, as you see things go from bad to worse.

We can survive in the fiery furnace, but is that God's objective with Man? It is by God's concession to the poor choice of others that causes us to end up there, metaphorically. God ideally wants just societies. There is oh so much in the Prophets about social justice. And there is oh so much in the Law about the need for  society to base its laws on only one God.

[RandyPNW]

When they deserved it. See Lev 26 or Deut 28.

I doubt they/we ever deserve it.  But there does come times when God certainly removes it.

Lees

Yet you just said "Yet God always seems to provide a safe political environment for His  people." Now you're saying He doesn't. Do you believe in anything at all?

Your ancestors learned to live in all of the varied conditions. The consistency is in God's provision for those who at least try. Those who surrender completely to the enemy will get what the enemy himself deserves.

But not all those who suffer do so because of their own sins. Sometimes the testimony of our faith is made in blood. There will be a resurrection, and a new city.

[Quantrill]

I'm sorry, my friend, but you have to bring a predetermined pretribulational dispensational worldview into 1 Cor 12 in order to try to say that there are two separate bodies of believers.

It's just disingenuous to say otherwise from the text.  Yes, we was writing to the church, but that doesn't change the truth of what he said.

This effort to create a divided body drives Jesus nuts.

Yes, Paul is writing to the Church at Corinth. (1 Cor. 1:2).   Jew and Gentile being made into one body is the Church, not Israel.  (1 Cor. 12:13) Israel is not found in (1 Cor. 12).

Lees

[Quantrill]

Very interesting vision. The Word of GOD REVEALS there are two redeemers. One for the original and legitimate Israel, and another for the Gentile peoples. I would say: The Person of JESUS and the person of the Holy Spirit: John 16:v.7 to 15 . Check it.

Why do I am saying this? Here goes what the Word of GOD reveals about TWO REDEEMERS, I think this is marvelous, wonderful, glorious, as well as I marvel knowing that David had gentilic blood in his body. GOD IS IN CONTROL OF THE HISTORY, NOTHING RANDOM HAPPENS.

RUTH CHAPTER 4  (whoso readeth, let him understand:)

1 Then went Boaz up to the gate, and sat him down there: and, behold, the kinsman of whom Boaz spake came by; unto whom he said, Ho, such a one!(WHO IS THIS MYSTERIOUS ONE?) turn aside, sit down here. And he turned aside, and sat down.

2 And he took ten men of the elders of the city, and said, Sit ye down here. And they sat down.

3 And he said unto the kinsman, Naomi, that is come again out of the country of Moab, selleth a parcel of land, which was our brother Elimelech's:

4 And I thought to advertise thee, saying, Buy it before the inhabitants, and before the elders of my people. If thou wilt redeem it, redeem it: but if thou wilt not redeem it, then tell me, that I may know: for there is none to redeem it beside thee; and I am after thee. And he said, I WILL REDEEM IT.

5 Then said Boaz, What day thou buyest the field of the hand of Naomi, thou must buy it also of Ruth the Moabitess, the wife of the dead, to raise up the name of the dead upon his inheritance.

6 And the kinsman said, I cannot redeem it for myself, lest I mar MINE OWN INHERITANCE: redeem thou MY RIGHT TO THYSELF; FOR I CANNOT REDEEM IT.

7 Now this was the manner in former time in Israel concerning redeeming and concerning changing, for to confirm all things; a man plucked off his shoe, and gave it to his neighbour: and this was a testimony in Israel.

8 Therefore the kinsman said unto Boaz, Buy it for thee. So he drew off his shoe.

9 And Boaz said unto the elders, and unto all the people, Ye are witnesses this day, that I have bought all that was Elimelech's, and all that was Chilion's and Mahlon's, of the hand of Naomi.

10 Moreover Ruth the Moabitess, the wife of Mahlon, have I purchased to be my wife, to raise up the name of the dead upon his inheritance, that the name of the dead be not cut off from among his brethren, and from the gate of his place: ye are witnesses this day.

11 And all the people that were in the gate, and the elders, said, We are witnesses. The Lord make the woman that is come into thine house like Rachel and like Leah, which two did build the house of Israel: and do thou worthily in Ephratah, and be famous in Bethlehem:

12 And let thy house be like the house of Pharez, whom Tamar bare unto Judah, of the seed which the Lord shall give thee of this young woman.

13 So Boaz took Ruth, and she was his wife: and when he went in unto her, the Lord gave her conception, and she bare a son.

14 And the women said unto Naomi, Blessed be the Lord, which hath not left thee this day without a kinsman, that his name may be famous in Israel.

15 And he shall be unto thee a restorer of thy life, and a nourisher of thine old age: for thy daughter in law, which loveth thee, which is better to thee than seven sons, hath born him.

16 And Naomi took the child, and laid it in her bosom, and became nurse unto it.

17 And the women her neighbours gave it a name, saying, There is a son born to Naomi; and they called his name Obed: he is the father of Jesse, the father of David.

18 Now these are the generations of Pharez: Pharez begat Hezron,

19 And Hezron begat Ram, and Ram begat Amminadab,[/color]

20 And Amminadab begat Nahshon, and Nahshon begat Salmon,

21 And Salmon begat Boaz, and Boaz begat Obed,

22 And Obed begat Jesse, and Jesse begat David.

There is only One Redeemer, Jesus Christ.  The nearer kinsman in (Ruth 4:6) could not redeem the land due to the Gentile wife connected to the land by marriage.  (Ruth 4:5)

In (John 16:7-15) the Holy Spirit is not another redeemer.  He is the Comforter sent to help and lead the believing and to reprove the world.  (John 16:7-8)

Lees

[Oseas]

Very interesting vision. The Word of GOD REVEALS there are two redeemers. One for the original and legitimate Israel, and another for the Gentile peoples. I would say: The Person of JESUS and the person of the Holy Spirit: John 16:v.7 to 15 . Check it.

Why do I am saying this? Here goes what the Word of GOD reveals about TWO REDEEMERS, I think this is marvelous, wonderful, glorious, as well as I marvel knowing that David had gentilic blood in his body. GOD IS IN CONTROL OF THE HISTORY, NOTHING RANDOM HAPPENS.

RUTH CHAPTER 4  (whoso readeth, let him understand:)

1 Then went Boaz up to the gate, and sat him down there: and, behold, the kinsman of whom Boaz spake came by; unto whom he said, Ho, such a one!(WHO IS THIS MYSTERIOUS ONE?) turn aside, sit down here. And he turned aside, and sat down.

2 And he took ten men of the elders of the city, and said, Sit ye down here. And they sat down.

3 And he said unto the kinsman, Naomi, that is come again out of the country of Moab, selleth a parcel of land, which was our brother Elimelech's:

4 And I thought to advertise thee, saying, Buy it before the inhabitants, and before the elders of my people. If thou wilt redeem it, redeem it: but if thou wilt not redeem it, then tell me, that I may know: for there is none to redeem it beside thee; and I am after thee. And he said, I WILL REDEEM IT.

6 And the kinsman said, I cannot redeem it for myself, lest I mar MINE OWN INHERITANCE: redeem thou MY RIGHT TO THYSELF; FOR I CANNOT REDEEM IT.
8 Therefore the kinsman said unto Boaz, Buy it for thee. So he drew off his shoe.

There is only One Redeemer, Jesus Christ.  The nearer kinsman in (Ruth 4:6) could not redeem the land due to the Gentile wife connected to the land by marriage.  (Ruth 4:5)

In (John 16:7-15) the Holy Spirit is not another redeemer.  He is the Comforter sent to help and lead the believing and to reprove the world.  (John 16:7-8)

Lees

But the Word of GOD above reveals crystaL clear there are two. Why don't you believe in the Word of GOD? The Word is GOD, understand?
There are three that bear record in heaven: the Father(GOD the Father), the Word(the Word made flesh-JESUS), and the Holy Spirit(who is not a ghost as is written in English language, but a Person like the Son of man): and these three are One. The testimony of JESUS is the Spirit of prophecy: JESUS said: John 16:v.13-15:
14 - He shall glorify me: for he shall receive of mine, and shall shew it unto you.- 
15 All things that the Father hath are mine: therefore said I, that he shall TAKE OF MINE, and shall shew it unto you.
13 -  he shall not speak of himself; but whatsoever he shall hear, that shall he speak: and he will shew you things to come.

The above prophecy of JESUS will fulfill LITERALLY as He spoke.

Revelation 14:v.14-20
14 And I looked, and behold a white cloud, and upon the cloud one sat like unto the Son of man, having on his head a golden crown, and in his hand a sharp sickle.

15 And another angel came out of the temple, crying with a loud voice to him that sat on the cloud, Thrust in thy sickle, and reap: for the time is come for thee to reap; for the harvest of the earth is ripe.

19 And the angel thrust in his sickle into the earth, and gathered the vine of the earth, and cast it into the great winepress of the wrath of God.

Matthew 25:v.31-33
1 When the Son of man shall come in his glory...then shall He sit upon the throne of His glory:

32 And before Him shall be gathered ALL nations: and separate them one from another, as a shepherd divide his sheep from the goats:

[Fenris]

There is only One Redeemer, Jesus Christ.  The nearer kinsman in (Ruth 4:6) could not redeem the land due to the Gentile wife connected to the land by marriage.  (Ruth 4:5)

The "redeemer" in Ruth 4 is referring to Levirate marriage. The stated purpose is to that the deceased will not be forgotten forever. This is explicitly described in Deut 25:

If brothers are living together and one of them dies without a son, his widow must not marry outside the family. Her husband’s brother shall take her and marry her and fulfill the duty of a brother-in-law to her. The first son she bears shall carry on the name of the dead brother so that his name will not be blotted out from Israel.

 However, if a man does not want to marry his brother’s wife, she shall go to the elders at the town gate and say, “My husband’s brother refuses to carry on his brother’s name in Israel. He will not fulfill the duty of a brother-in-law to me.”  Then the elders of his town shall summon him and talk to him. If he persists in saying, “I do not want to marry her,” his brother’s widow shall go up to him in the presence of the elders, take off one of his sandals, spit in his face and say, “This is what is done to the man who will not build up his brother’s family line.”

In Ruth 4, the proper closest relative declines to redeem Ruth in a Levirate marriage, claiming " I cannot redeem it because I might endanger my own estate. You redeem it yourself. I cannot do it." He doesn't want his tribal land to go down another's line. Because he declines, Boaz, the more distant relative, exercises the Levirate rights instead. Thus the chapter tells us that Boaz says, "I have also acquired Ruth the Moabite, Mahlon’s widow, as my wife, in order to maintain the name of the dead with his property, so that his name will not disappear from among his family or from his hometown." Which is exactly what Deut 25 says.

This has nothing whatsoever to do with Jesus, redemption from sin, or anything else you seem to be conjecturing here. You appear to have seized on it because it contains the word "redeem" without doing any research into the matter whatsoever.

[Oseas]

This has nothing whatsoever to do with Jesus, redemption from sin, or anything else you seem to be conjecturing here. You appear to have seized on it because it contains the word "redeem" without doing any research into the matter whatsoever.

Excelent interpretation. Actually, the Word of GOD is full of mysteries.

In Ruth 4, the proper closest relative declines to redeem Ruth in a Levirate marriage, claiming " I cannot redeem it because I might endanger my own estate. You redeem it yourself. I cannot do it." He doesn't want his tribal land to go down another's line. Because he declines, Boaz, the more distant relative, exercises the Levirate rights instead.

Very interesting interpretation. In fact, GOD's Word is full of mysteries. Another example as is written in Hebrew 7:v.1 to 6 and so on.

1 For this Melchisedec, king of Salem, priest of the most high God, who met Abraham returning from the slaughter of the kings, and blessed him;

2 To whom also Abraham gave a tenth part of all; first being by interpretation King of righteousness, and after that also King of Salem, which is, King of peace;

3 Without father, without mother, without descent, having neither beginning of days, nor end of life; but made like unto the Son of God; abideth a priest continually.

4 Now consider how great this man was, unto whom even the patriarch Abraham gave the tenth of the spoils.

5 And verily they that are of the sons of Levi, who receive the office of the priesthood, have a commandment to take tithes of the people according to the law, that is, of their brethren, though they come out of the loins of Abraham:

6 But he whose descent is not counted from them received tithes of Abraham, and blessed him that had the promises.

[Fenris]

Very interesting interpretation.

Its not an "interpretation", it's literally the explicit text.

In fact, GOD's Word is full of mysteries.

I... have no idea what this means or how it has anything to do with the text or anything else that I posted.

[Oseas]

Very interesting interpretation.

Its not an "interpretation", it's literally the explicit text.

In fact, GOD's Word is full of mysteries.

I... have no idea what this means or how it has anything to do with the text or anything else that I posted.

We speak the wisdom of GOD in a mystery, even the hidden wisdom, which God ordained before the world unto our glory:

[Fenris]

We speak the wisdom of GOD in a mystery, even the hidden wisdom, which God ordained before the world unto our glory:

So what you're saying is that we should completely ignore the plain text of the bible and instead adopt your "secret" understanding because...

[Oseas]

We speak the wisdom of GOD in a mystery, even the hidden wisdom, which God ordained before the world unto our glory:

So what you're saying is that we should completely ignore the plain text of the bible and instead adopt your "secret" understanding because...

Oh no, you are saying that. So, quite the contrary, how can we "ignore the plain text of the bible", that is the Word of GOD, the Word is GOD, if the Scriptures explain Scriptures? So there is not any "secret" understanding because as our Lord JESUS said : " The disciple is not above his master, nor the servant above his lord. It is enough for the disciple that he be as his master, and the servant as his lord". Mat.10:24-25

[RabbiKnife]

Whistle on the play.

Flag in the field.

Non sequitur

15 yard penalty
Still first down

[Fenris]

Oh no, you are saying that. So, quite the contrary, how can we "ignore the plain text of the bible"

You're ignoring the plain text of the bible. Since you appear to have not read what I posted, I'll post it again.

The "redeemer" in Ruth 4 is referring to Levirate marriage. The stated purpose is to that the deceased will not be forgotten forever. This is explicitly described in Deut 25:

If brothers are living together and one of them dies without a son, his widow must not marry outside the family. Her husband’s brother shall take her and marry her and fulfill the duty of a brother-in-law to her. The first son she bears shall carry on the name of the dead brother so that his name will not be blotted out from Israel.

 However, if a man does not want to marry his brother’s wife, she shall go to the elders at the town gate and say, “My husband’s brother refuses to carry on his brother’s name in Israel. He will not fulfill the duty of a brother-in-law to me.”  Then the elders of his town shall summon him and talk to him. If he persists in saying, “I do not want to marry her,” his brother’s widow shall go up to him in the presence of the elders, take off one of his sandals, spit in his face and say, “This is what is done to the man who will not build up his brother’s family line.”

In Ruth 4, the proper closest relative declines to redeem Ruth in a Levirate marriage, claiming " I cannot redeem it because I might endanger my own estate. You redeem it yourself. I cannot do it." He doesn't want his tribal land to go down another's line. Because he declines, Boaz, the more distant relative, exercises the Levirate rights instead. Thus the chapter tells us that Boaz says, "I have also acquired Ruth the Moabite, Mahlon’s widow, as my wife, in order to maintain the name of the dead with his property, so that his name will not disappear from among his family or from his hometown." Which is exactly what Deut 25 says.

This has nothing whatsoever to do with Jesus, redemption from sin, or anything else you seem to be conjecturing here. You appear to have seized on it because it contains the word "redeem" without doing any research into the matter whatsoever.