Israel's Salvation

[Quantrill]

@Fenris

I, (yes, I was Lees a year ago), didn't hand wave the Biblical texts away.   My answer was also based upon 'Biblical texts'.  All of the Old Testament is about Jesus Christ.  (Luke 24:27,44)

In other words, is all you see in the book of (Ruth) a nice story of a Jewish marriage?  You think it is just a nice romantic love story with no connection to God's plan of redemption? 

Do you think the story of Joseph is just a story about Joseph?  Have you ever compared Joseph's life with Christ's?   

(1 Cor. 10:11) "Now all these things happened unto them for ensamples: and they are written for our admonition, upon whom the ends of the world are come."

Quantrill

[Fenris]

All of the Old Testament is about Jesus Christ. 

I understand that Christians see it this way. That's fine. But there's no reason for me to see it that way.

In other words, is all you see in the book of (Ruth) a nice story of a Jewish marriage?  You think it is just a nice romantic love story with no connection to God's plan of redemption? 

It is part of the story of king David.

"Redemption"? I've had this discussion already. In my view the bible is about sanctification, not redemption.

Do you think the story of Joseph is just a story about Joseph?  Have you ever compared Joseph's life with Christ's?   

With some imagination I can compare the story of Joseph to anyone I like.

(1 Cor. 10:11) "Now all these things happened unto them for ensamples: and they are written for our admonition, upon whom the ends of the world are come."

Your bible is not holy writ to me.

[Quantrill]

@Fenris

That's fine.  Then we have nothing more to say to each other.

Quantrill

[Fenris]

Then we have nothing more to say to each other.

We can't talk about the weather, or a good book I read last week?

[Quantrill]

We can't talk about the weather, or a good book I read last week?

What do I care about your opinion of the weather?   What do I care about any book you call 'good'?  Hint....nothing.

You say you don't consider my Bible as 'Holy Writ'.  But, when I show you that you don't know what you're talking about with your Bible, the Old Testament, you retreat  to 'Judaism'. 

In other words, whatever we talk about, you wind up revealing you don't know what you're talking about. 

Quantrill

[Fenris]

In other words, whatever we talk about, you wind up revealing you don't know what you're talking about.

From your need to lash out in anger, I'm sensing a lot of pain here. Do you want to talk about it?

[Athanasius]

A moment of silence for Quantrill.

...carry on.

[RabbiKnife]

In other words, whatever we talk about, you wind up revealing you don't know what you're talking about.

From your need to lash out in anger, I'm sensing a lot of pain here. Do you want to talk about it?

Well done, Sybock.

[jaareshiah]

This may be somewhat controversial, because some of my friends here are not Premillennial, and I am. However, I was asked by a friend, who believes "Israel" is the Church, "What is the basis of your belief that Natural Israel will be saved?" I've had a long-standing, somewhat-friendly discussion with him about this. And I thought I'd let you in on some of my thinking, right or wrong. Here's his question, and my answer...

Brother:
What would convince me, would be a scripture that says the Jews will be forgiven and redeemed.

All I can see are the ones which tell of their virtual demise.

In Isaiah 22:14 The Lord says: Assuredly your [the House of Judah] wickedness will never be wiped out, you will die for your sins.

My Answer:
I can't say anything definitively, brother, because this is all future business--it's speculative. Like you, I love the word of God and have been studying it over 50 years. I've gone over every page of the prophets and circled virtually every verse, but there are still lots of things I don't know like the back of my hand. I have a bird's eye view, but that bird is a little myopic, and things remain somewhat blurry.

I've favored the Jews because I've studied them for about as long as I've studied prophecy. And I believe the reason they are judged so harshly is because as a people they were given to know better. As the few sinned, sin spread, until sin won over the majority. Everybody caved to their weakness, save a few.

Well, God it seems decided to no longer call the nation as a race, but now as a religion. This would make the standard for their salvation based not on their race, but on their religious integrity. Christianity became the standard, and Israel as a nation would have to be rebuilt on the religion.

So we do have an emphasis on tearing down the race in favor of the few who are properly religious--the faithful remnant. But that doesn't prevent that remnant from one day becoming the foundation upon which the nation is revived and restored.

If you look at the Prophets, there are many references to a "final restoration" of Israel, never more to be exiled, defeated, or punished. They are there, and that's why I hold to the position I do.

Not only that, but it gives hope not just to individuals but also to society where individuals have to live. Is it any great comfort for an individual to enjoy spiritual life but have to live in an unjust society?

And so, I believe God has always wished to save the society and the nation, as well as the individual. Saving the nation is a matter of delivering it from the influence of sinners, who cause the masses to stray, bringing upon them judgment from God and enemies to that nation. If the nation is guarded against corruption, not all will be saved, but the society will be able to withstand pressures to cave to sin, and thus avoid the destruction of the nation.

This is what I mean by the promise of salvation of the nation. It begins with the spirituality of a few, and ends with the adoption, by the majority, of the Christian standard. And this in turn saves the nations from its enemies, who would destroy them by the hand of God if they return to sin.

End of Discussion: I welcome all comments/insights, no matter what you believe on this.

So many believe that fleshly Israel is still God's people, but they have failed to make a SERIOUS examination of the Bible, as for example at Isaiah 66, whereby it shows a transition from the nation of fleshly Israel, due to being apostate and incorrigible, to a new "nation of Israel", which the apostle Paul called it "the Israel of God" at Galatians 6:16.

At Isaiah 66, God, whose name is Jehovah (see Isa 12:2; 26:4, KJV), shows the change (or replacing) from fleshly Israel to spiritual Israel, saying: "This is what Jehovah says: “The heavens are my throne, and the earth is my footstool. Where, then, is the house (or body of loyal people, compare 2 Sam 3:6) that you could build for me (that would be Jehovah's "special property, a kingdom of priests and a holy nation", Ex 19:5, 6), and where is my resting-place ?"

"My own hand has made all these things, and this is how they all came to be,” declares Jehovah. “To this one, then, I will look, to the one humble and broken in spirit who trembles at my word (which the nation of fleshly Israel refused to do, see Isa 1:3-5; 30:9-11, but were apostate, see Isa 10:6)."

"The one slaughtering the bull is like one striking down a man.(see Isa 1:11, where fleshly Israel's sacrifices was "a waste of time") The one sacrificing a sheep is like one breaking the neck of a dog. (see Lev 11:27) The one offering a gift—like the blood of a pig ! (see Deut 14: The one presenting a memorial offering of frankincense is like one saying a blessing with magical words.(see Isa 1:13, where the offering of incense in the altar of incense in the Holy compartment was detestable to Jehovah, due to fleshly Israel hands "filled with blood", Isa 1:18, with murders) They have chosen their own ways, and they take delight in what is disgusting."

"So I will choose ways to punish them (see Deut 28:15, placing "curses" on them), and the very things they dread (destruction and death) I will bring upon them. Because when I called, no one answered; When I spoke, there were none who listened. They (fleshly Israel) kept doing what was bad in my eyes,and they chose to do what displeased me.”

So, at Isaiah 66:5, 6, Jehovah separates two bodies of people, and calls the nation of fleshly Israel his enemy, saying: "Hear the word of Jehovah, you who tremble at his word (spiritual Israel): “Your brothers who hate you and exclude you because of my name said, ‘May Jehovah be glorified !’ (as Jesus said of fleshly Israel, quoting Isa 29:13, that "this people honor me with their lips, but their hearts are far removed from me", Matt 15:"

"But He (Jehovah) will appear and bring you (spiritual Israel) joy, and they are the ones (the nation of fleshly Israel) who will be put to shame.” There is a sound of uproar from the city (of literal Jerusalem), a sound from the temple ! It is the sound of Jehovah repaying his enemies (fleshly Israel) what they deserve (when the Roman armies destroyed Jerusalem with its temple in 70 C.E., see Matt 24:2)."

Isaiah 66:7-10 now says: "Before she (the symbolic "woman" at Gen 3:15) went into labor, she gave birth. Before birth pangs came to her, she delivered a male child (of a heavenly government called God's Kingdom, see Rev 12:1-5). Who has ever heard of such a thing ? Who has seen such things ?"

"Will a land be brought to birth in one day (as on the day of Pentecost when the holy spirit was poured out on the first prospective members of God's Kingdom, Acts 2:1-4) ? Or will a nation be born all at once? Yet, as soon as Zion went into labor, she gave birth to her sons."

“Will I bring it to the point of birth and then not bring it forth ?” says Jehovah. “Or would I cause the birth and then shut the womb ?” says your God. Rejoice with (symbolic) Jerusalem (see Isa 2:2, 3 where symbolic Jerusalem and Zion is seen) and be joyful with her, all you who love her. Exult greatly with her, all you who are in mourning over her."

At Galatians 4, the apostle Paul makes this clear, saying: "These things may be taken as a symbolic drama; for these women (Hagar and Sarah) mean two covenants, the one from Mount Siʹnai (or Jews under the Mosaic Law), which bears children for slavery and which is Haʹgar."

"Now Haʹgar means Siʹnai, a mountain in Arabia, and she corresponds with the (fleshly) Jerusalem today, for she is in slavery (to sin, being very militaristic and murderous) with her children. But the (symbolic) Jerusalem above is free, and she is our mother".(Gal 4:24-26)

So, the nation of fleshly Israel is NOT Jehovah's people, but rather the new nation of spiritual Israel, for Jesus told the Pharisees, who represented the fleshly Israelites as their leaders: "Did you never read in the Scriptures (at Ps 118:22, 23), ‘The stone (Jesus Christ) that the builders (the Jewish religious leaders) rejected (and murdered, see Acts 5:30), this has become the chief cornerstone (of God's Kingdom). This has come from Jehovah, and it is marvelous in our eyes’?"

"This is why I say to you, the Kingdom of God will be TAKEN FROM YOU and be given to a (new) nation (of spiritual Israel) producing its fruits (of holy conduct, see John 13:34, 35). Also, the person falling on (or attacking) this stone (of God's Kingdom, that is the symbolic "woman's offspring", see Rev 12:17) will be shattered. As for anyone on whom it falls (or attacks), it will crush him.”(Matt 21:42-44)

[Fenris]

So many believe that fleshly Israel is still God's people, but they have failed to make a SERIOUS examination of the Bible

Why do people think that Jews don't know what's in our own bible?

[Fenris]

God, whose name is Jehovah

You know there's no "J" sound in Hebrew, right?

[Athanasius]

So many believe that fleshly Israel is still God's people, but they have failed to make a SERIOUS examination of the Bible

Why do people think that Jews don't know what's in our own bible?

Same reason people show up with a "You Christians are apostate God has revealed to me!" attitude?

[Rebecca]

This may be somewhat controversial, because some of my friends here are not Premillennial, and I am. However, I was asked by a friend, who believes "Israel" is the Church, "What is the basis of your belief that Natural Israel will be saved?" I've had a long-standing, somewhat-friendly discussion with him about this. And I thought I'd let you in on some of my thinking, right or wrong. Here's his question, and my answer...

Brother:
What would convince me, would be a scripture that says the Jews will be forgiven and redeemed.

All I can see are the ones which tell of their virtual demise.

In Isaiah 22:14 The Lord says: Assuredly your [the House of Judah] wickedness will never be wiped out, you will die for your sins.

My Answer:
I can't say anything definitively, brother, because this is all future business--it's speculative. Like you, I love the word of God and have been studying it over 50 years. I've gone over every page of the prophets and circled virtually every verse, but there are still lots of things I don't know like the back of my hand. I have a bird's eye view, but that bird is a little myopic, and things remain somewhat blurry.

I've favored the Jews because I've studied them for about as long as I've studied prophecy. And I believe the reason they are judged so harshly is because as a people they were given to know better. As the few sinned, sin spread, until sin won over the majority. Everybody caved to their weakness, save a few.

Well, God it seems decided to no longer call the nation as a race, but now as a religion. This would make the standard for their salvation based not on their race, but on their religious integrity. Christianity became the standard, and Israel as a nation would have to be rebuilt on the religion.

So we do have an emphasis on tearing down the race in favor of the few who are properly religious--the faithful remnant. But that doesn't prevent that remnant from one day becoming the foundation upon which the nation is revived and restored.

If you look at the Prophets, there are many references to a "final restoration" of Israel, never more to be exiled, defeated, or punished. They are there, and that's why I hold to the position I do.

Not only that, but it gives hope not just to individuals but also to society where individuals have to live. Is it any great comfort for an individual to enjoy spiritual life but have to live in an unjust society?

And so, I believe God has always wished to save the society and the nation, as well as the individual. Saving the nation is a matter of delivering it from the influence of sinners, who cause the masses to stray, bringing upon them judgment from God and enemies to that nation. If the nation is guarded against corruption, not all will be saved, but the society will be able to withstand pressures to cave to sin, and thus avoid the destruction of the nation.

This is what I mean by the promise of salvation of the nation. It begins with the spirituality of a few, and ends with the adoption, by the majority, of the Christian standard. And this in turn saves the nations from its enemies, who would destroy them by the hand of God if they return to sin.

End of Discussion: I welcome all comments/insights, no matter what you believe on this.

So many believe that fleshly Israel is still God's people, but they have failed to make a SERIOUS examination of the Bible, as for example at Isaiah 66, whereby it shows a transition from the nation of fleshly Israel, due to being apostate and incorrigible, to a new "nation of Israel", which the apostle Paul called it "the Israel of God" at Galatians 6:16.

At Isaiah 66, God, whose name is Jehovah (see Isa 12:2; 26:4, KJV), shows the change (or replacing) from fleshly Israel to spiritual Israel, saying: "This is what Jehovah says: “The heavens are my throne, and the earth is my footstool. Where, then, is the house (or body of loyal people, compare 2 Sam 3:6) that you could build for me (that would be Jehovah's "special property, a kingdom of priests and a holy nation", Ex 19:5, 6), and where is my resting-place ?"

"My own hand has made all these things, and this is how they all came to be,” declares Jehovah. “To this one, then, I will look, to the one humble and broken in spirit who trembles at my word (which the nation of fleshly Israel refused to do, see Isa 1:3-5; 30:9-11, but were apostate, see Isa 10:6)."

"The one slaughtering the bull is like one striking down a man.(see Isa 1:11, where fleshly Israel's sacrifices was "a waste of time") The one sacrificing a sheep is like one breaking the neck of a dog. (see Lev 11:27) The one offering a gift—like the blood of a pig ! (see Deut 14: The one presenting a memorial offering of frankincense is like one saying a blessing with magical words.(see Isa 1:13, where the offering of incense in the altar of incense in the Holy compartment was detestable to Jehovah, due to fleshly Israel hands "filled with blood", Isa 1:18, with murders) They have chosen their own ways, and they take delight in what is disgusting."

"So I will choose ways to punish them (see Deut 28:15, placing "curses" on them), and the very things they dread (destruction and death) I will bring upon them. Because when I called, no one answered; When I spoke, there were none who listened. They (fleshly Israel) kept doing what was bad in my eyes,and they chose to do what displeased me.”

So, at Isaiah 66:5, 6, Jehovah separates two bodies of people, and calls the nation of fleshly Israel his enemy, saying: "Hear the word of Jehovah, you who tremble at his word (spiritual Israel): “Your brothers who hate you and exclude you because of my name said, ‘May Jehovah be glorified !’ (as Jesus said of fleshly Israel, quoting Isa 29:13, that "this people honor me with their lips, but their hearts are far removed from me", Matt 15:"

"But He (Jehovah) will appear and bring you (spiritual Israel) joy, and they are the ones (the nation of fleshly Israel) who will be put to shame.” There is a sound of uproar from the city (of literal Jerusalem), a sound from the temple ! It is the sound of Jehovah repaying his enemies (fleshly Israel) what they deserve (when the Roman armies destroyed Jerusalem with its temple in 70 C.E., see Matt 24:2)."

Isaiah 66:7-10 now says: "Before she (the symbolic "woman" at Gen 3:15) went into labor, she gave birth. Before birth pangs came to her, she delivered a male child (of a heavenly government called God's Kingdom, see Rev 12:1-5). Who has ever heard of such a thing ? Who has seen such things ?"

"Will a land be brought to birth in one day (as on the day of Pentecost when the holy spirit was poured out on the first prospective members of God's Kingdom, Acts 2:1-4) ? Or will a nation be born all at once? Yet, as soon as Zion went into labor, she gave birth to her sons."

“Will I bring it to the point of birth and then not bring it forth ?” says Jehovah. “Or would I cause the birth and then shut the womb ?” says your God. Rejoice with (symbolic) Jerusalem (see Isa 2:2, 3 where symbolic Jerusalem and Zion is seen) and be joyful with her, all you who love her. Exult greatly with her, all you who are in mourning over her."

At Galatians 4, the apostle Paul makes this clear, saying: "These things may be taken as a symbolic drama; for these women (Hagar and Sarah) mean two covenants, the one from Mount Siʹnai (or Jews under the Mosaic Law), which bears children for slavery and which is Haʹgar."

"Now Haʹgar means Siʹnai, a mountain in Arabia, and she corresponds with the (fleshly) Jerusalem today, for she is in slavery (to sin, being very militaristic and murderous) with her children. But the (symbolic) Jerusalem above is free, and she is our mother".(Gal 4:24-26)

So, the nation of fleshly Israel is NOT Jehovah's people, but rather the new nation of spiritual Israel, for Jesus told the Pharisees, who represented the fleshly Israelites as their leaders: "Did you never read in the Scriptures (at Ps 118:22, 23), ‘The stone (Jesus Christ) that the builders (the Jewish religious leaders) rejected (and murdered, see Acts 5:30), this has become the chief cornerstone (of God's Kingdom). This has come from Jehovah, and it is marvelous in our eyes’?"

"This is why I say to you, the Kingdom of God will be TAKEN FROM YOU and be given to a (new) nation (of spiritual Israel) producing its fruits (of holy conduct, see John 13:34, 35). Also, the person falling on (or attacking) this stone (of God's Kingdom, that is the symbolic "woman's offspring", see Rev 12:17) will be shattered. As for anyone on whom it falls (or attacks), it will crush him.”(Matt 21:42-44)

Rom 14:17  For the kingdom of God is not meat and drink; but righteousness, and peace, and joy in the Holy Ghost. 

[Fenris]

Same reason people show up with a "You Christians are apostate God has revealed to me!" attitude?

[Fenris]

Rom 14:17 For the kingdom of God is not meat and drink; but righteousness, and peace, and joy in the Holy Ghost.

Again, we know what's in our own bible. We've no obligation to study the holy books of other religions before deciding that what we know is correct.