Might as well make use of this space

[Fenris]

I sure hope he'll fill Docs' mouth with laughter, because his prime didn't last long.

I was hoping to fill your mouth with laughter, because you look like you could use a laugh. 

[journeyman]

That makes no sense. How does having another faith disagree with "all other human doctrine"? You may not have noticed, but a majority of the human race is not Christian.

I don't know what the fraction of those who actually follow the Messiahs' teachings are, but it seems that if a majority of the human race did, things would be much better for all. And.....they are.

Saying that Jews are persecuted because they're wrong.....

I never said this, or implied it, or the rest of your comment.

I'm not talking about Jesus, I'm talking about Christians. Christians do not follow the bible's laws, and Jews do. See?

I see I'm not going back to look at your quote but a christian is a follower of the Messiah. I can't repeat this again.

So then you actually can't boast of God's goodness t Israel, because it hasn't happened yet. Finally, a point we agree on. This is progress.

The Apostles were Jews.....following behind Their King. For a long time, it never occurred to me that God was blessing Israel either. But that's what can happen, when you're a gentile, living in a gentile world.

The point is debatable.

You cited Job, so.....

And after my skin, they have cut into this, and from my flesh I see judgment. Jb.19:26

So no it isn't debatable, as you must agree with everything Job says. That's your standard. You live by it.

You mean by coming back from the dead, but only to his closest disciples?

Yes and to his closest disciples, all of Israel. Isn't that what you mean?

I'll have to finish the rest later.

[journeyman]

I was hoping to fill your mouth with laughter, because you look like you could use a laugh.

My heart isn't filled with laughter at the thought of, "Doc Holiday is cool." Not unless at some point, he gave himself to God and even then, it would only be because he'd heard of God.....because of what the Messiah did. If that's not YIKES!, I don't know what is.

[Athanasius]

Yeah, you could definitely laugh a bit more.

[RabbiKnife]

A merry heart forth good like a medicine.

[journeyman]

God's promises are primarily to Israel.....
You really need to read more.....
Jews also don't believe that Jesus was resurrected.....

The people who first believed in Jesus were Jews. They explained how God gathered them out of this sinful world to build his temple, which is the believers themselves collectively.

That's a statement of faith, not fact.

Of course it is. God has chosen the faithful,

And he believed in the LORD; and he counted it to him for righteousness. Gen.15:6

No, let's go there. Who wrote the NT? Seems important.

It is, but I satisfied my curiosity about it years ago. Start a thread, since you're concerned about it.

But worshipping a man is idolatry, for Jews at least. And some Christians carried out mass murder.

Messiahs' disciples don't commit murder. The King of the Jews should be worshipped.

It sounds like you need to work on your patience. And politeness.

And then some.
 

Amazing that Israel itself doesn't recognize this "new covenant". It's as if in the end of days the Jews will be proven wrong and the gentiles correct.

You keep thinking "Israel" doesn't include Jesus (a Jew) and those who knew him (all Jews). What is it that you can't seem to understand? Is it that you believe the NT is a gentile conspiracy?

She's crying for the exiles. That's why God promises her "... your work will be rewarded...They will return from the land of the enemy." Words mean things.

Would you agree that Gods' promise includes her children that died in exile?

Where?.....

And he said unto them, Ye know how that it is an unlawful thing for a man that is a Jew to keep company, or come unto one of another nation; but God hath shewed me that I should not call any man common or unclean. Act.10:28

Peter is referring to the unclean animals God showed him.

If the long waited messiah has come, why have Jews been in exile the last 2000 years? Where's the rebuilt temple? Where the universal peace and knowledge of God? These are all things that the messiah was supposed to bring, yet they have not happened.

They are happening my friend. It's "universal" in the sense of availability. I'm not lying about the great peace I have been given by the knowledge of God through the Messiah.

Again with this double standard. So when Jesus is treated in vile ways, it is significant, but when Jews are treated in vile ways, sometimes by the very followers of Jesus, you sweep it under the rug.

Nothing is swept under the rug. When the Messiah returns, some will hear him say, "Depart from me. I never knew you."

How about everyone else? Also corrected for sin, or nah?

For those who repented.

[journeyman]

Yeah, you could definitely laugh a bit more.

I laugh when it's appropriate. I think the life Doc Holiday lived is pretty sad.

[Athanasius]

I laugh when it's appropriate. I think the life Doc Holiday lived is pretty sad.

It's a forum, you're allowed to laugh. Contextually, it's fine. You be you, though.

[Fenris]

I don't know what the fraction of those who actually follow the Messiahs' teachings are

And you're meandering off topic again, without addressing what I said at all. Because of course you are.

I never said this, or implied it, or the rest of your comment.

You most certainly did. But you be you.

I see I'm not going back to look at your quote but a christian is a follower of the Messiah.

sigh. Again you aren't even bothering anymore.

The Apostles were Jews.....following behind Their King. For a long time, it never occurred to me that God was blessing Israel either. But that's what can happen, when you're a gentile, living in a gentile world.

Again, doesn't address my point at all. If you ignore what I say there isn't any point in having a discussion.

You cited Job, so.....

And after my skin, they have cut into this, and from my flesh I see judgment. Jb.19:26

So no it isn't debatable, as you must agree with everything Job says. That's your standard. You live by it.

I have no idea what this has to do with anything, Job is talking about himself so what magical point you're trying to make here is lost on me.

Yes and to his closest disciples, all of Israel. Isn't that what you mean?

His closest disciples were all of Israel? I have no idea what you're trying to say here.

[Fenris]

God's promises are primarily to Israel.....
You really need to read more.....
Jews also don't believe that Jesus was resurrected.....

The people who first believed in Jesus were Jews.

This has nothing to do with what I said. At all. I make some statement and your answer is Jesus. And Jesus and Jesus and Jesus. It doesn't address what I said at all.

Of course it is. God has chosen the faithful,

And he believed in the LORD; and he counted it to him for righteousness. Gen.15:6

I see this verse quoted all the time, and never with context. So let's give the verse context.

Genesis 15

After this, the word of the Lord came to Abram in a vision: "Do not be afraid, Abram. I am your shield, your very great reward.”

But Abram said, “Sovereign Lord, what can you give me since I remain childless and the one who will inherit my estate is Eliezer of Damascus?” And Abram said, “You have given me no children; so a servant in my household will be my heir.”


God is telling Abram that his reward will be very great, and Abram says so what? I have no kids to pass it on to.

The chapter continues

Then the word of the Lord came to him: “This man will not be your heir, but a son who is your own flesh and blood will be your heir.” He took him outside and said, “Look up at the sky and count the stars—if indeed you can count them.” Then he said to him, “So shall your offspring be.”

God says, don't worry, I got this. You will have a son to inherit you, and, in fact, your descendants will be as numerous as the stars in the sky.

Then we come to verse .

Abram believed the Lord, and he credited it to him as righteousness.

Now, it isn't clear from the English (or the original Hebrew, for that matter) who is crediting who with being righteous. I know it's standard Christian dogma that God is crediting Abram for believing Him, but it's just as grammatically correct to say that Abram was crediting God for being righteous in promising him a son. Anyway, even assuming that the Christian read is correct, all it says is that Abram trusted God in a specific promise. Not that he had faith in God's existence or whatever. I mean, who was he talking to? God.

It is, but I satisfied my curiosity about it years ago. Start a thread, since you're concerned about it.

I'm asking you about it now, but uh, yeah, you don't like to answer things I'm noticing.

Messiahs' disciples don't commit murder.

How does the song go? "Don't know much about history..."

There's an excellent take of this song in the film "Animal House" which I am not suggesting that you go watch since it has scenes that would be offensive to devout Christians. And Jews.

The King of the Jews should be worshipped.

No human being should be worshipped.

 

You keep thinking "Israel" doesn't include Jesus (a Jew) and those who knew him (all Jews). What is it that you can't seem to understand? Is it that you believe the NT is a gentile conspiracy?

This is not really addressing my point though. The prophets spoke of wonderful things happening to Israel in the messianic era. In your take, it actually applies to everyone but Israel. I don't know how you square this circle.

Would you agree that Gods' promise includes her children that died in exile?

No, it's talking about her children that live in exile. "They shall return from the land of the enemy."

And he said unto them, Ye know how that it is an unlawful thing for a man that is a Jew to keep company, or come unto one of another nation; but God hath shewed me that I should not call any man common or unclean. Act.10:28

Peter is referring to the unclean animals God showed him.

So ummm, first if all this wrong, Jews can and do "keep company" with people of other nations. I don't know where Paul gets this from. Second of all, it doesn't address animals at all. And even if it did, Leviticus is very explicit as I already posted, most animals may not be eaten under the Sinai covenant. If Paul is permitting non Kosher animals to be eaten, this brings us back to my first post. If God forbade something, how does a human being permit it?

If the long waited messiah has come, why have Jews been in exile the last 2000 years? Where's the rebuilt temple? Where the universal peace and knowledge of God? These are all things that the messiah was supposed to bring, yet they have not happened.

They are happening my friend. It's "universal" in the sense of availability. I'm not lying about the great peace I have been given by the knowledge of God through the Messiah.

I think it's wonderful that you personally have peace, but that isn't a messianic prophecy. World peace is. And universal knowledge of God. And a rebuilt temple. And Jewish exiles being returned to the land of Israel. You're hanging your hat on "the messiah came" for a "fulfillment" that isn't in the bible and ignoring all the unfulfilled prophecies  that are in the bible.

Nothing is swept under the rug. When the Messiah returns, some will hear him say, "Depart from me. I never knew you."

Again ignoring what I said. Yawn.

How about everyone else? Also corrected for sin, or nah?

For those who repented.

Has nothing to do with what I said. Again.

[journeyman]

This has nothing to do with what I said. At all. I make some statement and your answer is Jesus. And Jesus and Jesus and Jesus. It doesn't address what I said at all.

Sure it does, because your contention is Jews don't believe in Jesus, but his followers were Jews.

I see this verse quoted all the time, and never with context. So let's give the verse context.

Abram believed the Lord, and he credited it to him as righteousness.

I know it's standard Christian dogma that God is crediting Abram for believing Him...

Jews believe this also,

The Holy One, blessed be He, accounted it to Abram as a merit and as righteousness for the faith that he believed in Him (Targum Jonathan). (Rabbi Rashis' commentary)

I'm asking you about it now, but uh, yeah, you don't like to answer things I'm noticing.

waste your own time studying scholars who disagree with one another. The only way to determine the validity of scripture is,

If any man will do his will, he shall know of the doctrine, whether it be of God, or whether I speak of myself. Jn.7:17
And,
The fear of the LORD is the beginning of wisdom: and the knowledge of the holy is understanding. Pro.9:10

How does the song go? "Don't know much about history..."

God knows the history of every individuals heart and he will decide who and who didn't believe in him.

No human being should be worshipped.

I do not receive honor from men, but I know you, that you do not have the love of God in you. I have come in My Father’s name, and you do not receive me. If another comes in his own name, him you will receive. How can you believe, who receive honor from one another, and do not seek the honor that comes from the only God? Jn.5:41-44
 

This is not really addressing my point though. The prophets spoke of wonderful things happening to Israel in the messianic era. In your take, it actually applies to everyone but Israel. I don't know how you square this circle.

The Messiah did wonderful things to Israel and wonderful things happen to Jews and now gentiles by faith in God through the Messiah.

No, it's talking about her children that live in exile. "They shall return from the land of the enemy."

Jews who recognized the Messiah understood his expansion of the "land of the enemy" to include death.

So ummm, first if all this wrong, Jews can and do "keep company" with people of other nations. I don't know where Paul gets this from.

It was Peter who claimed the stigma. Apparently in 1st century Israel, it was unlawful for Jews to enter a pagans house.

Second of all, it doesn't address animals at all. And even if it did, Leviticus is very explicit as I already posted, most animals may not be eaten under the Sinai covenant. If Paul is permitting non Kosher animals to be eaten, this brings us back to my first post. If God forbade something, how does a human being permit it?

By knowing the reason behind it. If eating a certain food would defile someone, the Patriarchs would have been told.

I think it's wonderful that you personally have peace, but that isn't a messianic prophecy. World peace is. And universal knowledge of God. And a rebuilt temple. And Jewish exiles being returned to the land of Israel. You're hanging your hat on "the messiah came" for a "fulfillment" that isn't in the bible and ignoring all the unfulfilled prophecies  that are in the bible.

You're assuming when Messiah came, everyone on earth would live in peace. You're confusing his return with his 1st appearing,

Do you suppose that I came to give peace on earth? I tell you, not at all, but rather division. Lk.12:51

Again ignoring what I said. Yawn.

I'm aware of your inability to understand. An adherent is someone who practices what the Messiah preached.

Has nothing to do with what I said. Again.

You don't seem to understand that some people choose death over repentance.

[Fenris]

This has nothing to do with what I said. At all. I make some statement and your answer is Jesus. And Jesus and Jesus and Jesus. It doesn't address what I said at all.

Sure it does, because your contention is Jews don't believe in Jesus, but his followers were Jews.

Here we go again. Jesus Jesus Jesus Jesus Jesus Jesus! Not discussing what I said at all.

And just because some Jews believe something doesn't make it a Jewish belief. There are Jews that converted to Islam and Hinduism, using your logic those other faiths are actually Jewish.

The Holy One, blessed be He, accounted it to Abram as a merit and as righteousness for the faith that he believed in Him (Targum Jonathan). (Rabbi Rashis' commentary)

As I said, one can read it either way. Regardless (and again, because you never address what I actually said) this doesn't mean that Abram believed in God , he was already talking to God. It means Abram believed that God would fulfill a specific promise that He, God, had made. But of course you'll ignore me saying it now just like you ignored me saying it before.

waste your own time studying scholars who disagree with one another. The only way to determine the validity of scripture is,

If any man will do his will, he shall know of the doctrine, whether it be of God, or whether I speak of myself. Jn.7:17
And,
The fear of the LORD is the beginning of wisdom: and the knowledge of the holy is understanding. Pro.9:10

These verses also apply to everyone else here, including me. What makes you any more correct?

How does the song go? "Don't know much about history..."

God knows the history of every individuals heart and he will decide who and who didn't believe in him.

Don't know much about history.
 Don't know much biology.
 Don't know much about science book.
 Don't know much about the French I took...

No human being should be worshipped.

I do not receive honor from men, but I know you, that you do not have the love of God in you. I have come in My Father’s name, and you do not receive me. If another comes in his own name, him you will receive. How can you believe, who receive honor from one another, and do not seek the honor that comes from the only God? Jn.5:41-44

Yeah quoting a book that isn't holy writ to me is sure to get me to agree with you!

Deuteronomy 4  You saw no form of any kind the day the Lord spoke to you at Horeb out of the fire. Therefore watch yourselves very carefully, so that you do not become corrupt and make for yourselves an idol, an image of any shape, whether formed like a man or a woman, or like any animal on earth or any bird that flies in the air, or like any creature that moves along the ground or any fish in the waters below.

"You saw no form at Horeb, so don't worship anything that has a form" seems self explanatory to me.
 

This is not really addressing my point though. The prophets spoke of wonderful things happening to Israel in the messianic era. In your take, it actually applies to everyone but Israel. I don't know how you square this circle.

The Messiah did wonderful things to Israel and wonderful things happen to Jews and now gentiles by faith in God through the Messiah.

Again ignoring what I said. God promised wonderful things to Israel, none of which have yet occurred. Yet you're saying that it's actually the gentiles who are right, and not the Jews. This is the opposite of what the bible says.

No, it's talking about her children that live in exile. "They shall return from the land of the enemy."

Jews who recognized the Messiah understood his expansion of the "land of the enemy" to include death.

It isn't what the text says, and there's no evidence of your belief existing in Judaism, or that you didn't just invent it right now for that matter.

It was Peter who claimed the stigma. Apparently in 1st century Israel, it was unlawful for Jews to enter a pagans house.

"Apparently" according to who?

By knowing the reason behind it. If eating a certain food would defile someone, the Patriarchs would have been told.

The bible doesn't say that the Patriarchs were told anything. Jacob married two sisters, which is expressly forbidden in Lev 18. Why didn't God tell him? Obviously because the Sinai covenant added the laws, including the laws of forbidden foods. And God helpfully provides the reason in Lev 11-

"I am the Lord your God. Consecrate yourselves therefore, and be holy, because I am holy. And you shall not make yourselves unclean with any of the swarming things that swarm on the earth. For I am the Lord who brought you up from the land of Egypt, to be your God; so you shall be holy, because I am holy.’”

By what right does any human being override what God says here?

You're assuming when Messiah came, everyone on earth would live in peace.

I'm "assuming" that the messiah would actually, you know, fulfill messianic prophecy. Which hasn't happened yet.

You're confusing his return with his 1st appearing,

Which isn't in my bible.

Do you suppose that I came to give peace on earth? I tell you, not at all, but rather division. Lk.12:51

This isn't in my bible. Quoting NT verses to me isn't authoritative, I thought you would know that by now.

I'm aware of your inability to understand.

I'm aware of your ability to ignore things I say. Hoo boy am I aware.

An adherent is someone who practices what the Messiah preached.

The messiah's mission isn't to "preach" anything. It's to fulfill messianic prophecy, which has yet to occur.

You don't seem to understand that some people choose death over repentance.

I have no idea what this means.

[journeyman]

Here we go again. Jesus Jesus Jesus Jesus Jesus Jesus! Not discussing what I said at all.


And just because some Jews believe something doesn't make it a Jewish belief. There are Jews that converted to Islam and Hinduism, using your logic those other faiths are actually Jewish.

I explained this already. I didn't mean everything Jews believe is true. I meant whatever harmonizes with the OT is true and Jesus expounded on the OT. Jesus the Messiah is right.

As I said, one can read it either way. Regardless (and again, because you never address what I actually said)

What you "actually said" was,

I know it's standard Christian dogma that God is crediting Abram for believing Him...

Then, when I cite a  Rabbi you respect that agrees with me, you divert the conversation toward false religions.
 I'll finish the rest later God willing. Happy New Year 😊

[journeyman]

These verses also apply to everyone else here, including me. What makes you any more correct?

I'm not more correct. They apply to anyone who does Gods' will. To anyone who respects the Lord. It's available to everyone on earth, but everyone on earth isn't going to avail himself of it.

Don't know much about history.
 Don't know much biology.
 Don't know much about science book.
 Don't know much about the French I took...

God will decide if Paul Simon loved him.

Yeah quoting a book that isn't holy writ to me is sure to get me to agree with you!

I'm just thanking God that his Messiah conquered all of our enemies. Some don't believe it.

Deuteronomy 4  You saw no form of any kind the day the Lord spoke to you at Horeb out of the fire. Therefore watch yourselves very carefully, so that you do not become corrupt and make for yourselves an idol, an image of any shape, whether formed like a man or a woman, or like any animal on earth or any bird that flies in the air, or like any creature that moves along the ground or any fish in the waters below.

"You saw no form at Horeb, so don't worship anything that has a form" seems self explanatory to me.

I also believe we should only worship our Creator.
 

...Yet you're saying that it's actually the gentiles who are right, and not the Jews...

I didn't write it. The Jews did lol.

It isn't what the text says, and there's no evidence of your belief existing in Judaism, or that you didn't just invent it right now for that matter.

The text says Rachels' children are no more, which really isn't true if they're still alive and being raised from death is a belief in Judaism. You seem unhappy about that good news.

"Apparently" according to who?

Apparently religious leaders of his day.

The bible doesn't say that the Patriarchs were told anything. Jacob married two sisters, which is expressly forbidden in Lev 18. Why didn't God tell him? Obviously because the Sinai covenant added the laws, including the laws of forbidden foods. And God helpfully provides the reason in Lev 11-

"I am the Lord your God. Consecrate yourselves therefore, and be holy, because I am holy. And you shall not make yourselves unclean with any of the swarming things that swarm on the earth. For I am the Lord who brought you up from the land of Egypt, to be your God; so you shall be holy, because I am holy.’”

By what right does any human being override what God says here?

None, but my point was if eating certain food would make someone unclean, why wait to prohibit it?

I'm "assuming" that the messiah would actually, you know, fulfill messianic prophecy. Which hasn't happened yet.

Which isn't in my bible.

This isn't in my bible. Quoting NT verses to me isn't authoritative, I thought you would know that by now.

I'm aware of your ability to ignore things I say. Hoo boy am I aware.

The messiah's mission isn't to "preach" anything. It's to fulfill messianic prophecy, which has yet to occur.

I have no idea what this means.

It's time to agree to disagree.

[Fenris]

I explained this already. I didn't mean everything Jews believe is true. I meant whatever harmonizes with the OT is true and Jesus expounded on the OT. Jesus the Messiah is right.

What you mean is "my beliefs are right". Judaism or any other religion for that matter is internally self-consistent.

Then, when I cite a  Rabbi you respect that agrees with me

The rabbi isn't just agreeing with you. As I said, it's perfectly justified way to read the text. The problem is that it isn't the sweeping statement you make it out to be. Abram believed that God would fulfill a specific promise, namely that he would have children.

Happy New Year 😊

Happy new year!