Might as well make use of this space

[journeyman]

You made some comment about Maimonides. What are you referring to?

Maimonidea said,
"If a king will arise from the House of David who diligently contemplates the Torah and observes its mitzvot as prescribed by the Written Law and the Oral Law as David, his ancestor, will compel all of Israel to walk in (the way of the Torah) and rectify the breaches in its observance, and fight the wars of God, we may, with assurance, consider him Mashiach." Halacha 4
https://jewsforjudaism.org/knowledge/articles/maimonides-laws-pertaining-messiah/

I suspect our disagreement has nothing to do with what Moses wrote, but with the oral law, although I don't know what's in the Talmud. I do know there can be no conflict between Moses and the Messiah.

Where did Jesus abrogate what Moses wrote?

[Fenris]

No it doesn't abrogate the old covenant. It agrees with it 100%,

You have to take this up with your fellow Christians, not me. Because according to you, either the bible's laws were never in effect; or else they remain in effect. In either case there is no need for a "new covenant".

This is going to sound like a bizarre and crazy thing, but I think I understand Christian theology better than you do.

[Fenris]

You made some comment about Maimonides. What are you referring to?

Maimonidea said,
"If a king will arise from the House of David who diligently contemplates the Torah and observes its mitzvot as prescribed by the Written Law and the Oral Law as David, his ancestor, will compel all of Israel to walk in (the way of the Torah) and rectify the breaches in its observance, and fight the wars of God, we may, with assurance, consider him Mashiach." Halacha 4
https://jewsforjudaism.org/knowledge/articles/maimonides-laws-pertaining-messiah/

You're quoting for Maimonides "laws of kings", a 12 chapter work. Only the last two chapters are of interest to this discussion, as they pertain to the messiah (who will, after all, be a king).

Some observations

You're being disingenuous here. You can't accept one concept that Maimonides rules on without accepting them all. For example, chapter 11 begins with "In the future, the Messianic king will arise and renew the Davidic dynasty, restoring it to its initial sovereignty. He will build the Temple and gather the dispersed of Israel." You obviously don't accept this because after Jesus the exact opposite happened: the temple was destroyed and the Jews were exiled. He continues "Then, in his days, the observance of all the statutes will return to their previous state. We will offer sacrifices, observe the Sabbatical and Jubilee years according to all their particulars as described by the Torah." Christians don't believe there will be sacrifices in the messianic era, as Jesus made them superfluous.

The paragraph you're quoting in full

If a king will arise from the House of David who diligently contemplates the Torah and observes its mitzvot as prescribed by the Written Law and the Oral Law as David, his ancestor, will compel all of Israel to walk in (the way of the Torah) and rectify the breaches in its observance, and fight the wars of God, we may, with assurance, consider him Mashiach.

Maimonides then continues-

If he succeeds in the above, builds the Temple in its place, and gathers the dispersed of Israel, he is definitely the Mashiach.

Which clearly has not happened. As I pointed out above, the opposite occurred.

skipping a paragraph, we have

If he did not succeed to this degree or was killed, he surely is not the redeemer promised by the Torah.

Maimonides then makes observations about Jesus-

Jesus of Nazareth who aspired to be the Mashiach and was executed by the court was also alluded to in Daniel's prophecies, as ibid. 11:14 states: 'The vulgar among your people shall exalt themselves in an attempt to fulfill the vision, but they shall stumble.'

Can there be a greater stumbling block than Christianity? All the prophets spoke of Mashiach as the redeemer of Israel and their savior who would gather their dispersed and strengthen their observance of the mitzvot. In contrast, Christianity caused the Jews to be slain by the sword, their remnants to be scattered and humbled, the Torah to be altered, and the majority of the world to err and serve a god other than the Lord.

Nevertheless, the intent of the Creator of the world is not within the power of man to comprehend, for His ways are not our ways, nor are His thoughts, our thoughts. Ultimately, all the deeds of Jesus of Nazareth and that Ishmaelite who arose after him will only serve to prepare the way for Mashiach's coming and the improvement of the entire world, motivating the nations to serve God together as Tzephaniah 3:9 states: 'I will transform the peoples to a purer language that they all will call upon the name of God and serve Him with one purpose.'

How will this come about? The entire world has already become filled with the mention of Mashiach, Torah, and mitzvot. These matters have been spread to the furthermost islands to many stubborn-hearted nations. They discuss these matters and the mitzvot of the Torah, saying: 'These mitzvot were true, but were already negated in the present age and are not applicable for all time.'

When the true Messianic king will arise and prove successful, his position becoming exalted and uplifted, they will all return and realize that their ancestors endowed them with a false heritage and their prophets and ancestors caused them to err.

 

You can't quote from Maimonides if you're not willing to accept everything that he says.   

I suspect our disagreement has nothing to do with what Moses wrote

What God said. Not "what Moses wrote". The law comes from God, not Moses. And yes, we have disagreement. The bible says in many places that the law is eternal, and we are not to either add or subtract from it.

[Athanasius]

No it doesn't abrogate the old covenant. It agrees with it 100%...

You asked why I wrote what I wrote, and the post you're replying to is me telling you why; that post is not my attempt to debate the subject with you.

Rather than appeal to Maimonides, it seems more fruitful to point out the... double standard? special pleading? in Fenris' own position vis-a-vis his phrasing and interaction with some of the replies received (with particular respect to hearing from God directly). I don't care to get into it though, because I don't see this discussion going anywhere it hasn't gone before.

[journeyman]

You have to take this up with your fellow Christians, not me. Because according to you, either the bible's laws were never in effect; or else they remain in effect. In either case there is no need for a "new covenant".

I took it up with the person I made that comment to,
Athanasius, a fellow Christian. And your comment of needing no new covenant is senseless, since God said there will be a new one.

This is going to sound like a bizarre and crazy thing, but I think I understand Christian theology better than you do.

Others here may agree with you about that. So while we're on the subject, do you know why God wanted a new covenant?

[journeyman]

Some observations

You're being disingenuous here. You can't accept one concept that Maimonides rules on without accepting them all.

I can't agree on any point with anyone.....unless I agree with everything they say? What's disingenuous about that?

For example, chapter 11 begins with "In the future, the Messianic king will arise and renew the Davidic dynasty, restoring it to its initial sovereignty. He will build the Temple and gather the dispersed of Israel." You obviously don't accept this because after Jesus the exact opposite happened: the temple was destroyed and the Jews were exiled.

I accept it. I just understand it the correct way, because I understand real power isn't always to destroy your enemies when it's in your power to do it.

He continues "Then, in his days, the observance of all the statutes will return to their previous state. We will offer sacrifices, observe the Sabbatical and Jubilee years according to all their particulars as described by the Torah." Christians don't believe there will be sacrifices in the messianic era, as Jesus made them superfluous.

And I asked you where Jesus didn't observe the law, or tell anyone not to?
And I don't agree with many Christians.Torah observance occurs as a result of faith in what the Messiah taught.

Love does no harm to a neighbor. Therefore love is the fulfillment of the law. Rom.13:10

All the Law and the Prophets hang on these two commandments. Mt.22:40

The paragraph you're quoting in full

If a king will arise from the House of David who diligently contemplates the Torah and observes its mitzvot as prescribed by the Written Law and the Oral Law as David, his ancestor, will compel all of Israel to walk in (the way of the Torah) and rectify the breaches in its observance, and fight the wars of God, we may, with assurance, consider him Mashiach.

Maimonides then continues-

If he succeeds in the above, builds the Temple in its place, and gathers the dispersed of Israel, he is definitely the Mashiach.

Which clearly has not happened. As I pointed out above, the opposite occurred.

The Messiah is gathering his people together, which began with the Jewish Apostles and many others.

skipping a paragraph, we have

If he did not succeed to this degree or was killed, he surely is not the redeemer promised by the Torah.

Maimonides then makes observations about Jesus-

Jesus of Nazareth who aspired to be the Mashiach and was executed by the court was also alluded to in Daniel's prophecies, as ibid. 11:14 states: 'The vulgar among your people shall exalt themselves in an attempt to fulfill the vision, but they shall stumble.'

Can there be a greater stumbling block than Christianity? All the prophets spoke of Mashiach as the redeemer of Israel and their savior who would gather their dispersed and strengthen their observance of the mitzvot. In contrast, Christianity caused the Jews to be slain by the sword, their remnants to be scattered and humbled, the Torah to be altered, and the majority of the world to err and serve a god other than the Lord.

Nevertheless, the intent of the Creator of the world is not within the power of man to comprehend, for His ways are not our ways, nor are His thoughts, our thoughts. Ultimately, all the deeds of Jesus of Nazareth and that Ishmaelite who arose after him will only serve to prepare the way for Mashiach's coming and the improvement of the entire world, motivating the nations to serve God together as Tzephaniah 3:9 states: 'I will transform the peoples to a purer language that they all will call upon the name of God and serve Him with one purpose.'

How will this come about? The entire world has already become filled with the mention of Mashiach, Torah, and mitzvot. These matters have been spread to the furthermost islands to many stubborn-hearted nations. They discuss these matters and the mitzvot of the Torah, saying: 'These mitzvot were true, but were already negated in the present age and are not applicable for all time.'

When the true Messianic king will arise and prove successful, his position becoming exalted and uplifted, they will all return and realize that their ancestors endowed them with a false heritage and their prophets and ancestors caused them to err.

Well, I told you Rambam equated the oral law with the written law. I do wonder what he'd do, or say, if someone who didn't like his religious beliefs punched him in the face. I know what the Messiah did, thank God.
 

You can't quote from Maimonides if you're not willing to accept everything that he says.

You sound like a man who never agrees with anybody.

What God said. Not "what Moses wrote". The law comes from God, not Moses.

Moses was Gods mediator and the only reason you have what God said, is for what Moses wrote. Which brings up a statement you made about why you shouldn't listen to a man, but only God. How does God speak to you? Seriously.

And yes, we have disagreement. The bible says in many places that the law is eternal, and we are not to either add or subtract from it.

For verily I say unto you, Till heaven and earth pass, one jot or one tittle shall in no wise pass from the law, till all be fulfilled. Mt.5:18

[journeyman]

You asked why I wrote what I wrote, and the post you're replying to is me telling you why; that post is not my attempt to debate the subject with you.

Rather than appeal to Maimonides, it seems more fruitful to point out the... double standard? special pleading? in Fenris' own position vis-a-vis his phrasing and interaction with some of the replies received (with particular respect to hearing from God directly). I don't care to get into it though, because I don't see this discussion going anywhere it hasn't gone before.

That's a possibility. I'm not a betting man.

[Fenris]

I took it up with the person I made that comment to,
Athanasius, a fellow Christian.

Your disagreement isn't with Athanasius. It's with all Christians.

And your comment of needing no new covenant is senseless, since God said there will be a new one.

Yet nothing changed, according to you.

Others here may agree with you about that. So while we're on the subject, do you know why God wanted a new covenant?

Bible says nothing about God "wanting" a new covenant. He simply describes it. First, being with Israel and Judah, not the world at large. And secondly, that the law will be written on our hearts.

[Fenris]

I can't agree on any point with anyone.....unless I agree with everything they say? What's disingenuous about that?

You can't cite one thing that Maimonides says and ignore everything else, especially when the everything else is exactly the opposite of what you believe. Maimonides output of intellectual and Jewish works is massive. He wrote the first comprehensive codification of Jewish law. He wrote a text on logic. He espoused on Judaism and philosophy. He wrote a medical treatise (he was the Sultan's physician.) Oh, and he wrote a single paragraph that someone on the internet who calls himself "journeyman" cited.

You don't get to pick one idea from the thousands of pages he wrote and ignore everything else.

I accept it. I just understand it the correct way, because I understand real power isn't always to destroy your enemies when it's in your power to do it.

"Real power" has nothing to do with it. It's actually irrelevant. The bible lays out a set of prophecies about the messiah. Either the person in question fulfilled them, or he didn't. And that's it. "Real power" isn't a messianic prophecy. It's something you shoehorned in because you like it. And the bible specifically says "don't add to this word" yet you do it whenever you wish.

And I asked you where Jesus didn't observe the law, or tell anyone not to?
And I don't agree with many Christians.Torah observance occurs as a result of faith in what the Messiah taught.

Round and round we go. Do you observe the Sabbath or Kashrut? No? Why not?

Love does no harm to a neighbor. Therefore love is the fulfillment of the law. Rom.13:10

"Love thy neighbor" is just one command out of 613. Where are the other 612?

The Messiah is gathering his people together

Aaaand you're ignoring everything else that Maimonides says in this paragraph.

The people have not been gathered (although right now a larger percentage of the world's Jews live in Israel than at any other time since the first temple era. Maybe Herzl or Ben Gurion are the messiah? At least they are fulfilling that prophecy!) The Jews have not returned to complete observance of the law (Although Rabbi Schneerson the "Lubavitcher rebbe" sent messengers all over the world to return Jews to observance. Also he was a descendant of king David. He took part in fulfilling that prophecy at least). Unfortunately, the temple remains unbuilt so it seems we aren't in the messianic era yet.

Well, I told you Rambam equated the oral law with the written law.

And you know this because of your extensive research and years of study Maimonides works? Or is it just a talking point to score points?

I do wonder what he'd do, or say, if someone who didn't like his religious beliefs punched him in the face. I know what the Messiah did, thank God.

We Jews are well versed in people punching us in the face, or worse, because they don't like our beliefs. A well versed student of history such as yourself has certainly heard of the Crusades? Or the Inquisition?
 

You sound like a man who never agrees with anybody.

I agree with more people on these very forums than you do. One point for me!

Moses was Gods mediator and the only reason you have what God said, is for what Moses wrote. Which brings up a statement you made about why you shouldn't listen to a man, but only God. How does God speak to you? Seriously.

God spoke to my ancestors at Sinai. That is why we believe. Not because of anything that Moses said or did.

For verily I say unto you, Till heaven and earth pass, one jot or one tittle shall in no wise pass from the law, till all be fulfilled. Mt.5:18

And yet you do not observe the Sabbath. Why?

[journeyman]

Your disagreement isn't with Athanasius. It's with all Christians.

You don't know all Christians and people disagree one or some, but never all at once.

Yet nothing changed, according to you.

Not according to me. According to me, believers in Jesus turned the world upside down.

Bible says nothing about God "wanting" a new covenant. He simply describes it.

No Fenris. The Bible says God wanted the new covenant for this reason,

Behold, days are coming, says the Lord, and I will form a covenant with the house of Israel and with the house of Judah, a new covenant. Not like the covenant that I formed with their forefathers on the day I took them by the hand to take them out of the land of Egypt, that they broke My covenant, although I was a lord over them, says the Lord. For this is the covenant that I will form with the house of Israel after those days, says the Lord: I will place My law in their midst and I will inscribe it upon their hearts, and I will be their God and they shall be My people. Jer.31:30-32

God wanted a covenant whereby his laws would be heartfelt. Now, who displayed that more than the Messiah?

First, being with Israel and Judah, not the world at large. And secondly, that the law will be written on our hearts.

These twelve Jesus sent forth, and commanded them, saying, Go not into the way of the Gentiles, and into any city of the Samaritans enter ye not: But go rather to the lost sheep of the house of Israel.
Mt.10:5-6

And if neither Jews or gentiles can regret what was done to Gods' greatest messenger, his King no less, then read on,

In those days they shall say no more, The fathers have eaten a sour grape, and the children's teeth are set on edge. But every one shall die for his own iniquity: every man that eateth the sour grape, his teeth shall be set on edge. Jer.30:29-30

So much for the congregational theory.

[Fenris]

You don't know all Christians and people disagree one or some, but never all at once.

You are disagreeing on basic Christian doctrine. Enjoy your new religion, come up with a name for it yet?

Not according to me. According to me, believers in Jesus turned the world upside down.

And yet you say they changed nothing. How peculiar.

No Fenris. The Bible says God wanted the new covenant for this reason,

Behold, days are coming, says the Lord, and I will form a covenant with the house of Israel and with the house of Judah, a new covenant. Not like the covenant that I formed with their forefathers on the day I took them by the hand to take them out of the land of Egypt, that they broke My covenant, although I was a lord over them, says the Lord. For this is the covenant that I will form with the house of Israel after those days, says the Lord: I will place My law in their midst and I will inscribe it upon their hearts, and I will be their God and they shall be My people. Jer.31:30-32

God wanted a covenant whereby his laws would be heartfelt. Now, who displayed that more than the Messiah?

And yet you don't follow those laws. So, urp?

These twelve Jesus sent forth, and commanded them, saying, Go not into the way of the Gentiles, and into any city of the Samaritans enter ye not: But go rather to the lost sheep of the house of Israel.
Mt.10:5-6

"From now on I will go to the Gentiles" Acts, 18.

In those days they shall say no more, The fathers have eaten a sour grape, and the children's teeth are set on edge. But every one shall die for his own iniquity: every man that eateth the sour grape, his teeth shall be set on edge. Jer.30:29-30

It's Jeremiah 31, you didn't even get the chapter right. And you seemingly ignore the rest of the chapter, which is a shame, because it is glorious.

“I have loved you with an everlasting love;
    I have drawn you with unfailing kindness.

“Hear the word of the Lord, you nations;
    proclaim it in distant coastlands:
‘He who scattered Israel will gather them
    and will watch over his flock like a shepherd.’
 For the Lord will deliver Jacob
    and redeem them from the hand of those stronger than they.
 They will come and shout for joy on the heights of Zion;
    they will rejoice in the bounty of the Lord

“Restrain your voice from weeping
    and your eyes from tears,
for your work will be rewarded,”
declares the Lord.
    “They will return from the land of the enemy.
 So there is hope for your descendants,”
declares the Lord.
    “Your children will return to their own land.

This is what the Lord Almighty, the God of Israel, says: “When I bring them back from captivity, the people in the land of Judah and in its towns will once again use these words: ‘The Lord bless you, you prosperous city, you sacred mountain.’  People will live together in Judah and all its towns—farmers and those who move about with their flocks.  I will refresh the weary and satisfy the faint.”


and then comes your verse

“The days are coming,” declares the Lord, “when I will plant the kingdoms of Israel and Judah with the offspring of people and of animals. Just as I watched over them to uproot and tear down, and to overthrow, destroy and bring disaster, so I will watch over them to build and to plant,” declares the Lord.  “In those days people will no longer say,

‘The parents have eaten sour grapes,
    and the children’s teeth are set on edge.’


It's talking about the redemption of Zion and the Jews being restored to the land of Israel. Has no application to gentiles whatsoever.

[journeyman]

You can't cite one thing that Maimonides says and ignore everything else, especially when the everything else is exactly the opposite of what you believe. Maimonides output of intellectual and Jewish works is massive. He wrote the first comprehensive codification of Jewish law. He wrote a text on logic. He espoused on Judaism and philosophy. He wrote a medical treatise (he was the Sultan's physician.) Oh, and he wrote a single paragraph that someone on the internet who calls himself "journeyman" cited.

You don't get to pick one idea from the thousands of pages he wrote and ignore everything else.

I've heard you say that what Jesus taught wasn't new. How the rabbis said things that Jesus is said to have quoted. So Jesus agreed in ways with other teachers. And hypocrisy is when someone thinks it's ok to believe part of what others say about the New Testament, but it's not ok to believe part of what others say about the Old Testament.

Just to be clear, you believe certain things written in the New Testament are true, but other things are untrue, right? So please, stop it already.

"Real power" has nothing to do with it. It's actually irrelevant. The bible lays out a set of prophecies about the messiah. Either the person in question fulfilled them, or he didn't. And that's it. "Real power" isn't a messianic prophecy. It's something you shoehorned in because you like it. And the bible specifically says "don't add to this word" yet you do it whenever you wish.

I don't mean to insult you, but when you think about it, the Messiah wouldn't be able to fulfill any prophecy, unless he had some real power. Knowing this has nothing to do with me wanting to shoehorn my asnine thinking into a text. It's just common sense.

Round and round we go. Do you observe the Sabbath or Kashrut? No? Why not?

I understand the Sabbath to be Gods' day of rest, which rest is entered through the Messiah. I celebrate the Sabbath every day and work on any day God wants me to do something. For now, that includes the seventh day.
Under the new covenant, we may eat what we wish, but if anyone has a special diet, no problem.

"Love thy neighbor" is just one command out of 613. Where are the other 612?

They're hanging on the first two.

Aaaand you're ignoring everything else that Maimonides says in this paragraph.

I told you that Rabbi thought Jesus was powerless against mankind. He thought wrong.

The people have not been gathered (although right now a larger percentage of the world's Jews live in Israel than at any other time since the first temple era. Maybe Herzl or Ben Gurion are the messiah? At least they are fulfilling that prophecy!) The Jews have not returned to complete observance of the law (Although Rabbi Schneerson the "Lubavitcher rebbe" sent messengers all over the world to return Jews to observance. Also he was a descendant of king David. He took part in fulfilling that prophecy at least).

God wasn't speaking of returning his people to a physical location, but of returning his people to himself.

Unfortunately, the temple remains unbuilt so it seems we aren't in the messianic era yet.

The temple where God resides is within the individual.

And you know this because of your extensive research and years of study Maimonides works? Or is it just a talking point to score points?

It's a matter of reading the paragraph I cited, where Maimonides equated the oral with the written. I'm not illiterate.

We Jews are well versed in people punching us in the face, or worse, because they don't like our beliefs. A well versed student of history such as yourself has certainly heard of the Crusades? Or the Inquisition?

I certainly have.That's one reason why I understand your inability to recognize Jesus as the Messiah. You think messiah will slays his enemies without first putting up with all their crap, but Jesus is as his Father is, because God puts up with a lot of crap before dropping the hammer. The great King is full of mercy.
 

I agree with more people on these very forums than you do. One point for me!

Well, since your philosophy is not to quote anyone, unless you quote everything they say, don't cite any examples.

God spoke to my ancestors at Sinai. That is why we believe. Not because of anything that Moses said or did.

People know God spoke to your ancestors because,

Moses wrote this Torah, and gave it to the priests, the descendants of Levi, who carried the ark of the covenant of the Lord, and to all the elders of Israel. Deut.31:9

And yet you do not observe the Sabbath. Why?

Tedious.

[journeyman]

You are disagreeing on basic Christian doctrine.

Listen carefully. The Jews religion disagrees with basic all other human doctrine and is the real reason they have been persecuted like no other.

Enjoy your new religion, come up with a name for it yet?

Listen very carefully. It's not a new religion. Believers in Jesus have been persecuted like no other. You don't accept the reason.

And yet you say they changed nothing. How peculiar.

Don't know who you'll be citing on this, but it won't be me.

And yet you don't follow those laws. So, urp?

Answered already.

"From now on I will go to the Gentiles" Acts, 18.

"From now on", means "I went to the Jews first, like Jesus and all his believing Jews did, which he commanded them,

he answered and said, I am not sent but unto the lost sheep of the house of Israel. Mt.15:24

It's Jeremiah 31, you didn't even get the chapter right.

Thanks fir the correction. I was tired when I miscopied that, as I am now.

And you seemingly ignore the rest of the chapter, which is a shame, because it is glorious.

“I have loved you with an everlasting love;
    I have drawn you with unfailing kindness.

And what love is more everlasting than loving someone, even an enemy enough to die for them?

“Hear the word of the Lord, you nations;
    proclaim it in distant coastlands:
‘He who scattered Israel will gather them
    and will watch over his flock like a shepherd.’
 For the Lord will deliver Jacob
    and redeem them from the hand of those stronger than they.
 They will come and shout for joy on the heights of Zion;
    they will rejoice in the bounty of the Lord

I'm doing that now, along with other gentiles and Jews, in honor of the one who drew us with unfailing kindness.

I've told you numerous times now. You think he was too weak, or couldn't find a reason. You're wrong on either count.

“Restrain your voice from weeping
    and your eyes from tears,

And what could do this, more than knowing there really is life after death? Being assured our loved ones will see a better life? Please tell me Fenris if you know of any reason better to restrain from tears of sorrow.

for your work will be rewarded,”
declares the Lord.

And thou shalt be blessed; for they cannot recompense thee: for thou shalt be recompensed at the resurrection of the just. Lk.14:14

Whosoever therefore shall break one of these least commandments, and shall teach men so, he shall be called the least in the kingdom of heaven: but whosoever shall do and teach them, the same shall be called great in the kingdom of heaven Mt.5:19







and commanded them, saying, Go not into the way of the Gentiles, and into any city of the Samaritans enter ye not. But go rather to the lost sheep of the house of Israel
Mt.10:5-6

he answered and said, I am not sent but unto the lost sheep of the house of Israel. Mt.15:24

It's Jeremiah 31, you didn't even get the chapter right.

Thanks fir the correction. I was tired when I miscopied that, as I am now.

And you seemingly ignore the rest of the chapter, which is a shame, because it is glorious.

“I have loved you with an everlasting love;
    I have drawn you with unfailing kindness.

And what love is more everlasting than loving someone, even an enemy enough to die for them?

“Hear the word of the Lord, you nations;
    proclaim it in distant coastlands:
‘He who scattered Israel will gather them
    and will watch over his flock like a shepherd.’
 For the Lord will deliver Jacob
    and redeem them from the hand of those stronger than they.
 They will come and shout for joy on the heights of Zion;
    they will rejoice in the bounty of the Lord

I'm doing that now, along with other gentiles and Jews, in honor of the one who drew us with unfailing kindness.

I've told you numerous times now. You think he was too weak, or couldn't find a reason. You're wrong on either count.

“Restrain your voice from weeping
    and your eyes from tears,

And what could do this, more than knowing there really is life after death? Being assured our loved ones will see a better life? Please tell me Fenris if you know of any reason better to restrain from tears of sorrow.

for your work will be rewarded,”
Lk.14:14

declares the Lord.

Whosoever therefore shall break one of these least commandments, and shall teach men so, he shall be called the least in the kingdom of heaven: but whosoever shall do and teach them, the same shall be called great in the kingdom of heaven. Mt.5:19

    “They will return from the land of the enemy.

The land of the enemy is anywhere people are ignorant of God. Believers return to him from there.

So there is hope for your descendants,”
declares the Lord.
    “Your children will return to their own land.

That's where God is.

This is what the Lord Almighty, the God of Israel, says: “When I bring them back from captivity, the people in the land of Judah and in its towns will once again use these words: ‘The Lord bless you, you prosperous city, you sacred mountain.’  People will live together in Judah and all its towns—farmers and those who move about with their flocks.  I will refresh the weary and satisfy the faint.”

It's sin that brings people into captivity and there they stay, until they learn how forgiving God was,

Then said Jesus, Father, forgive them; for they know not what they do. And they parted his raiment, and cast lots. Lk.23:34

I must tell you Fenris, had it been me, I would have slaughtered them. How bout you? Just read it with no preconceived notions.

and then comes your verse

“The days are coming,” declares the Lord, “when I will plant the kingdoms of Israel and Judah with the offspring of people and of animals. Just as I watched over them to uproot and tear down, and to overthrow, destroy and bring disaster, so I will watch over them to build and to plant,” declares the Lord.  “In those days people will no longer say,

‘The parents have eaten sour grapes,
    and the children’s teeth are set on edge.’

It's talking about the redemption of Zion and the Jews being restored to the land of Israel. Has no application to gentiles whatsoever.

It's talking about those who say, The fathers ate sour grapes, but their children were affected .....and those who learn not to say that, which includes both Jews and gentiles.

    “They will return from the land of the enemy.

The land of the enemy is anywhere people are ignorant of God. Believers return to him from there.

So there is hope for your descendants,”
declares the Lord.
    “Your children will return to their own land.

That's where God is.

This is what the Lord Almighty, the God of Israel, says: “When I bring them back from captivity, the people in the land of Judah and in its towns will once again use these words: ‘The Lord bless you, you prosperous city, you sacred mountain.’  People will live together in Judah and all its towns—farmers and those who move about with their flocks.  I will refresh the weary and satisfy the faint.”

It's sin that brings people into captivity and there they stay, until they learn how forgiving God was,

Then said Jesus, Father, forgive them; for they know not what they do. And they parted his raiment, and cast lots. Lk.23:34

I must tell you Fenris, had it been me, I would have slaughtered them. How bout you? Just read it with no preconceived notions.

and then comes your verse

“The days are coming,” declares the Lord, “when I will plant the kingdoms of Israel and Judah with the offspring of people and of animals. Just as I watched over them to uproot and tear down, and to overthrow, destroy and bring disaster, so I will watch over them to build and to plant,” declares the Lord.  “In those days people will no longer say,

‘The parents have eaten sour grapes,
    and the children’s teeth are set on edge.’


It's talking about the redemption of Zion and the Jews being restored to the land of Israel. Has no application to gentiles whatsoever.

It's talking about those who say, The fathers ate sour grapes, but their children were affected .....and those who learn not to say that, which includes both Jews and gentiles.

[journeyman]

I'm worn out

[Fenris]

I've heard you say that what Jesus taught wasn't new. How the rabbis said things that Jesus is said to have quoted. So Jesus agreed in ways with other teachers. And hypocrisy is when someone thinks it's ok to believe part of what others say about the New Testament, but it's not ok to believe part of what others say about the Old Testament.

I don't agree with some things Jesus said because they're in the NT. I agree with some of the things he said because they're either already in my bible, or other rabbis had already said them first.  So no, it's not hypocritical at all.

I don't mean to insult you, but when you think about it, the Messiah wouldn't be able to fulfill any prophecy, unless he had some real power.

Like what, for example? Please illuminate me.

I understand the Sabbath to be Gods' day of rest, which rest is entered through the Messiah.

Actually the bible says that it is to be our day of rest, too.

Exodus 20: Remember the Sabbath day by keeping it holy. Six days you shall labor and do all your work, but the seventh day is a sabbath to the Lord your God. On it you shall not do any work, neither you, nor your son or daughter, nor your male or female servant, nor your animals, nor any foreigner residing in your towns...

Words, they mean things.

Under the new covenant, we may eat what we wish

But under the covenant at Sinai, there are things we are not permitted to eat. Leviticus 11

‘Every creature that moves along the ground is to be regarded as unclean; it is not to be eaten. You are not to eat any creature that moves along the ground, whether it moves on its belly or walks on all fours or on many feet; it is unclean. Do not defile yourselves by any of these creatures. Do not make yourselves unclean by means of them or be made unclean by them. I am the Lord your God; consecrate yourselves and be holy, because I am holy. Do not make yourselves unclean by any creature that moves along the ground. I am the Lord, who brought you up out of Egypt to be your God; therefore be holy, because I am holy.

“‘These are the regulations concerning animals, birds, every living thing that moves about in the water and every creature that moves along the ground. You must distinguish between the unclean and the clean, between living creatures that may be eaten and those that may not be eaten.’”


This is the plain text.

They're hanging on the first two.

But God specifically gave hundreds of others. I listed two, above. When did they stop being God's will? As I started this topic, if God said we must do these things, how can a person come and say we don't have to?

Aaaand you're ignoring everything else that Maimonides says in this paragraph.

I told you that Rabbi thought Jesus was powerless against mankind. He thought wrong.

Has nothing whatsoever to do with my comment.

God wasn't speaking of returning his people to a physical location, but of returning his people to himself.

Again, not what the text says. Ezekeil 37: ‘This is what the Sovereign Lord says: I will take the Israelites out of the nations where they have gone. I will gather them from all around and bring them back into their own land. and They will live in the land I gave to my servant Jacob, the land where your ancestors lived. Jeremiah 29 I will be found by you, declares the LORD, and I will restore you from captivity and gather you from all the nations and places to which I have banished you, declares the LORD. I will restore you to the place from which I sent you into exile." Ezekeil 36 For I will take you from among the nations and gather you out of all the countries, and I will bring you back into your own land. Amos 9 I will plant Israel in their own land, never again to be uprooted from the land I have given them,” says the LORD your God. Jeremiah 3 In those days the house of Judah will walk with the house of Israel, and they will come together from the land of the north to the land that I gave to your fathers as an inheritance. Jeremiah 23 Instead they will say, 'As surely as the LORD lives, who brought and led the descendants of the house of Israel up out of the land of the north and all the other lands to which He had banished them.' Then they will dwell once more in their own land." Jeremiah 32 I will surely gather My people from all the lands to which I have banished them in My furious anger and great wrath, and I will return them to this place and make them dwell in safety. etc etc are we even reading the same bible here?

The temple where God resides is within the individual.

It's fine if you believe that, but it isn't in my bible anywhere. Ezekeil from chapter 40 and on goes into exhaustive detail about a rebuilt temple, with a detailed floor plan and the specific sacrifices that will be brought. Why dwell on it if it's just something "in the individual"?

It's a matter of reading the paragraph I cited, where Maimonides equated the oral with the written.

I'm sorry, where does he do that?

We Jews are well versed in people punching us in the face, or worse, because they don't like our beliefs. A well versed student of history such as yourself has certainly heard of the Crusades? Or the Inquisition?

I certainly have.That's one reason why I understand your inability to recognize Jesus as the Messiah. You think messiah will slays his enemies without first putting up with all their crap

No, uh, actually, I believe that the messiah will you know, fulfill messianic prophecies. gather Jewish exiles back to the holy land, rebuilt temple, universal peace and knowledge of God, and so on. As Jesus didn't do these things, and in fact the opposite happened after his death, we're still waiting.

people know God spoke to your ancestors because,

Moses wrote this Torah, and gave it to the priests, the descendants of Levi, who carried the ark of the covenant of the Lord, and to all the elders of Israel. Deut.31:9

People know that God spoke to my ancestors because (Exodus 20) And God spoke all these words: “I am the Lord your God..."

And yet you do not observe the Sabbath. Why?

Tedious.

It's ok to ignore God's word because it's tedious? Weird flex but ok.