Our Lord Jesus Was Made A Curse?

[journeyman]

Righteous hatred isn't 'contempt for self'.

It is when I know how evil  I am.

When something, or someone, is held in contempt, then this is a view, or an act, that is fundamentally derisive, disrespectful, and so on, of something, or someone, that ought to otherwise be valued. Contempt is always relative to that which is worth something, or valuable. It's part of the act of denying the worth that something or someone has. It is wholly negative.

I agree. This is what the thread is about. Looking at our Lord Jesus as sin, or a curse. Only men saw him that way.

Righteous hatred, on the other hand, is the proper working out of hatred towards that which is a deserving object of said hatred such as evil, or sin. These things are never worth something, and are never valuable in that they are goods we should pursue. Unlike contempt, righteous hatred is wholly positive when properly applied. It is a good thing to hate evil. (But there is always the temptation for righteous hatred to be misapplied by humans and become, itself, evil in its application.)

When you confuse righteous hatred with contempt for self, you confuse the positive and negative aspects of either, and thus fail to differentiate between the good of the one from the evil of the other. One of these things is proper, and one is improper.

I agree, because of the aforementioned.

More to the point, nowhere in Scripture are we told to hold ourselves in contempt. If you want to derisively view yourself as a 'wretch' then go for it, but make sure your theology is spot on. I'm very well aware of the sin that I'm aware of. I have introspected and prayed enough to know that the longer I consider my being the more I realise how awful the reality is. But Jesus knew that, and more, about me when I was mere potential. Whatever I find out about myself, Jesus already knew, and He still gave up His life to save mine.

That's the point of the song, right? "He saved a wretch like me". Not, "I'm a wretch I'll be self-contemptuous now". There is a multitude of properly critical attitudes and views towards the self, but contempt is at the extreme and not one of them. Self-contempt is to (unrighteously) hate who Jesus loves, and loved enough to die for.

I agree, as had not Jesus endured the abuse of sins against himself, that would have been the end of sinners.

The same, or the same substance as the Father? And, what do you mean 'he appeared as a man'. Do you mean He appeared on earth vis-a-vis His incarnation (that is, fully human and fully God), or do you mean He only appeared to be human, which is some Docetic fallacy? (Or some form of Monarchianism, maybe?)

what i mean is, when Jesus told someone his sins were forgiven....and some listening said only God can forgive sins.... they didn't see him as God. They only saw him as a man.

You aren't going to convince anyone of that if you can't be bothered to properly understand contempt and righteous hatred.

Righteous hatred is contempt for inflicting sins on God.

[Athanasius]

It is when I know how evil  I am.

As explained, it's not. Still, you confuse the two. Perhaps it's worth meditating on the question of whether this confusion that drives your self-contempt, one you seem to desire to wallow in, is itself sin.

[Slug1]

What God "allowed" to happen. If God didn't allow sinners time to repent for the miserable way we've treated him, none of us would be left. That's the gospel Jesus teaches.

The Bible refutes your statement that God "allowed."

The two verses that immediately come to mind:

John 3:  16 For God so loved the world that He gave His only begotten Son, that whoever believes in Him should not perish but have everlasting life.

The other that comes immediately to mind is:

Titus 2:14 who gave Himself for us, that He might redeem us from every lawless deed and purify for Himself His own special people, zealous for good works.

In the Bible, the fact that God gave His Son to us as a sacrifice is described as an indescribable gift.

God's permissive will or God's divine will... which does Christ's death fall under? A: His divine will.

Edit: Come to think about your words, you are speaking a "works" based salvation 

[RabbiKnife]

Being fully God, Jesus didn't appear that way to the people he first walked among. He appeared to be only a man.

It's good to know Jesus was and always will be fully God. God could never be curse to himself.

You seem to have difficulty separating the independence and  interdependence of the persons of the Trinity.

[journeyman]

As explained, it's not. Still, you confuse the two. Perhaps it's worth meditating on the question of whether this confusion that drives your self-contempt, one you seem to desire to wallow in, is itself sin.

I don't wallow in self contempt. I'm happy to know how great God is and how great I'm not,

If ye then, being evil.....Mt.7:11

[journeyman]

The Bible refutes your statement that God "allowed."

The two verses that immediately come to mind:

John 3:  16 For God so loved the world that He gave His only begotten Son, that whoever believes in Him should not perish but have everlasting life.

Jn.3;16 should be seen in light of,

Having yet therefore one son, his wellbeloved, he sent him also last unto them, saying, They will reverence my son. But those husbandmen said among themselves, This is the heir; come, let us kill him, and the inheritance shall be ours. Mt.12:6-7

The other that comes immediately to mind is:

Titus 2:14 who gave Himself for us, that He might redeem us from every lawless deed and purify for Himself His own special people, zealous for good works.

This goes with this,

Behold, I have refined you, but not like silver; I have tried you in the furnace of affliction. Isa.48:10

Affliction comes from following the One who was afflicted and he's not the one who needed to be refined.

In the Bible, the fact that God gave His Son to us as a sacrifice is described as an indescribable gift.

God suffering the terrible treatment he received from sinners and offering forgiveness is a great gift.

God's permissive will or God's divine will... which does Christ's death fall under? A: His divine will.

Comitting sin (which is what the mistreatment of Christ was) isn't his divine will. He permitted it to show his divine will, which is to forgive the repentant, even of the worst sin.

Edit: Come to think about your words, you are speaking a "works" based salvation 

He's doing the works, not me.

[journeyman]

You seem to have difficulty separating the independence and  interdependence of the persons of the Trinity.

The people who nailed Jesus to the cross are the ones who had that problem.

[Slug1]

Affliction comes from following the One who was afflicted and he's not the one who needed to be refined.

Your whole response boils down to how your misunderstanding drives all your responses. We're not speaking about persecution. We're speaking about the fact that God decided His Son needed to "die," so sinful man can be redeemed and thus, there is the possibility of restoration to relationship with God.

[RabbiKnife]

The Bible refutes your statement that God "allowed."

The two verses that immediately come to mind:

John 3:  16 For God so loved the world that He gave His only begotten Son, that whoever believes in Him should not perish but have everlasting life.

Jn.3;16 should be seen in light of,

Having yet therefore one son, his wellbeloved, he sent him also last unto them, saying, They will reverence my son. But those husbandmen said among themselves, This is the heir; come, let us kill him, and the inheritance shall be ours. Mt.12:6-7

The other that comes immediately to mind is:

Titus 2:14 who gave Himself for us, that He might redeem us from every lawless deed and purify for Himself His own special people, zealous for good works.

This goes with this,

Behold, I have refined you, but not like silver; I have tried you in the furnace of affliction. Isa.48:10

Affliction comes from following the One who was afflicted and he's not the one who needed to be refined.

In the Bible, the fact that God gave His Son to us as a sacrifice is described as an indescribable gift.

God suffering the terrible treatment he received from sinners and offering forgiveness is a great gift.

God's permissive will or God's divine will... which does Christ's death fall under? A: His divine will.

Comitting sin (which is what the mistreatment of Christ was) isn't his divine will. He permitted it to show his divine will, which is to forgive the repentant, even of the worst sin.

Edit: Come to think about your words, you are speaking a "works" based salvation 

He's doing the works, not me.

Actually, John 3:16 should be viewed in light of its context, which is the entirety of John 3.

We should never use parables to make theology.

[Athanasius]

I don't wallow in self contempt. I'm happy to know how great God is and how great I'm not,

If ye then, being evil.....Mt.7:11

And you do this by proof-texting Matthew 7, or maybe Luke 11?

Are you suggesting then that you're saved by Grace, but still evil? Like, evil in some ontological sense that has persisted? Evil, through and through, which seems to be what you think Jesus is saying? (as in, He isn't saying something like, we're morally imperfect by nature, or inherently bad, or evil when contrasted with the goodness of God?)

If you know "how great [you're] not" and you engage in self-contempt then the issue persists, and yeah, contempt comes with wallowing. Why not wallow, if you're evil and not even the redeeming work of Christ can change that?

[journeyman]

God decided His Son needed to "die," so sinful man can be redeemed and thus, there is the possibility of restoration to relationship with God.

God decided he loved people, regardless of how much sin they commited against him and thus, there is the possibility of restoration to relationship with God.

[journeyman]

Actually, John 3:16 should be viewed in light of its context, which is the entirety of John 3.

he that believeth not the Son shall not see life; but the wrath of God abideth on him. Jn.3:36

We should never use parables to make theology.

When the lord therefore of the vineyard cometh, what will he do unto those husbandmen? They say unto him, He will miserably destroy those wicked men, and will let out his vineyard unto other husbandmen, which shall render him the fruits in their seasons. Jesus saith unto them, Did ye never read in the scriptures, The stone which the builders rejected, the same is become the head of the corner: this is the Lord's doing, and it is marvellous in our eyes? Mt.21:40-42

[journeyman]

And you do this by proof-texting Matthew 7, or maybe Luke 11?

I just showed you that our Lord viewed people as evil.

Are you suggesting then that you're saved by Grace, but still evil? Like, evil in some ontological sense that has persisted? Evil, through and through, which seems to be what you think Jesus is saying? (as in, He isn't saying something like, we're morally imperfect by nature, or inherently bad, or evil when contrasted with the goodness of God?)

Being morally imperfect by nature etc is just another way of saying people are evil.

If you know "how great [you're] not" and you engage in self-contempt then the issue persists, and yeah, contempt comes with wallowing. Why not wallow, if you're evil and not even the redeeming work of Christ can change that?

I never said Christ wasn't changing me. In fact it's because of his nature that I realize how evil I am. Maybe you're old nature is no longer with you. I'm in a war against mine every day, because it's contemptible.

[Slug1]

he that believeth not the Son shall not see life; but the wrath of God abideth on him. Jn.3:36

After reading your response to my post and then this post, you still seem to be avoiding what is revealed in the very verses you raise.

In your response to me, you said:

God decided he loved people, regardless of how much sin they commited against him and thus, there is the possibility of restoration to relationship with God.

While I can agree with your response here, there is however a "context" you seem to actively avoid, even resist. While God loves mankind, His "wrath" MUST be served to all of sinful mankind. This means that even FOR the believer, God's wrath must be executed.


Now, you pointed out a VERY important part of a verse in your response to RabbiKnife. In paraphrase, you pointed out those who don't believe, God's wrath abides on them (the unbeliever).


So, on "Who" did God's wrath abide on, for believers?

[journeyman]

While God loves mankind, His "wrath" MUST be served to all of sinful mankind. This means that even FOR the believer, God's wrath must be executed.

No it doesn't.

So, on "Who" did God's wrath abide on, for believers?

On nobody. It's like when your children are repentant for something they did. You don't take your anger out on anyone for the offense after that, because as a loving father, you forgive them.

God chastens all his children. Even Jesus submitted himself to his Father in this way, although he needed no correction,

Though he were a Son, yet learned he obedience by the things which he suffered; Heb.5:8

The writer doesn't mean "Jesus learned obedience". He means obedience is learned through suffering and Jesus is the perfect example of this. Look at Heb.12:4-13. Look at what he's saying.