Our Lord Jesus Was Made A Curse?

[Athanasius]

And you're not hearing the contempt I have for myself, because sinning against God is like beating Jesus mercilessly.

What was it Brennan Manning used to say?

Jesus: Did you really believe that I loved you? Loved you as you are, and not as you should be? That I cared for you? That I longed after you day-after-day?
journeyman: Yeah sure well you know I was just so full of self-hatred and self-contempt; I wanted to believe it but I was too busy hating the person you loved and died to save.

No good comes from self-hatred, or self-contempt, or the myriad negative emotions, thoughts, feelings, etc., you might hold about yourself. It doesn't make sense, if you see yourself / your sin as beating Jesus mercilessly while also hating the very person Jesus died to save -- you.

[journeyman]

Ya know brother, seems the Holy Spirit is trying to show you something in what you just expressed. Let me express what is discerned.

God's wrath against sin STILL must be executed because of His righteousness, even against those who repent of sin while turning to Jesus in belief.

God will correct us as a Father loves his children, but his wrath is reserved for the unrepentant,

He that believeth on the Son hath everlasting life: and he that believeth not the Son shall not see life; but the wrath of God abideth on him. Jn.3:36

Question: Who received ALL of this wrath so believers are cleansed of their sin, when they repent before Christ in belief of Him?

God didn't pour his wrath out on his Son. We repent before Christ because sin was committed against him. Against the express image of God on earth.

Also, what can be discerned in your words speaking how you have contempt for yourself, if Jesus has forgiven you, has cleansed you, has redeemed you  (made you alive in Himself - born-again), your words reveal either you have not forgiven yourself or you do not understand a verse you posted the other day where there is NO condemnation found in those who are saved (you posted the Romans 8 verse).

In simple words, you CAN'T have contempt for yourself based on the very PROMISE of that Romans 8:1 verse. That verse is a PROMISE, not a piece of information. It is SUCH a powerful promise from God that with it, the Holy Spirit can re-new your mind and thus, there CAN'T be any (self) contempt found in you.

In other words, even WHEN a believer sins, there should be no "contempt" in them, only conviction and a deep remorse that PUSHES the person away from the sin they did, toward Christ for forgiveness and strength in resisting, overcoming (turned away) of the sin.

Contempt is not fruit of the Holy Spirit.

I'm grateful for the mercy Jesus has shown us. I don't live in condemnation, but as Paul said,

O wretched man that I am! Rom.7:24

And as David said,

For I am aware of my rebellious acts; I am forever conscious of my sin. Psa.51:3

And my reason for for thinking like those brothers is so I stay aware of the fact that I'm not better than anyone.

You know as well as I do that when the self righteous wanted to stome the adulteress, our Lord put them in rememberance that they were no better than she was and that kind of thinking about ourselves shouldnt change after salvation, because it's Christ God who is great.

[journeyman]

Is it harder to believe that a Sovereign God would pour out His wrath on the only One who could become sin on our behalf, thereby satisfying God's just nature

God's just nature is to give to every person what they deserve. Our perfect Father did not pour his wrath out on his innocent Son. No loving father would. The only people who regarded God as sin were the people who condemned him.

Believing that feeble men could inflict this justice through their own unrighteous anger themselves ?

Inflicting punishment on the innocent is sin.

The latter does not, in any way, satisfy God's wrath. In fact, it would only bring more.

You got that right.

[journeyman]

THERE IS THEREFORE NOW NO CONDEMNATION FOR THOSE WHO ARE IN CHRIST JESUS.

Hallelujah!

Get free, brother, get free.

All of your sins are already forgiven.  Jesus paid the price.  He suffered the wrath.  It is finished.  No condemnation.  No bondage.
Your sin now, as a believer, is not a source of condemnation or contempt.  Jesus already paid for it and forgave it.

He wants you to accept that and to not let guilt and false teaching keep you at arms distance from him by your efforts to appease the price of sin that He has already paid.

I hope you come to realize that what sinners did to Jesus, they were doing to God.

[journeyman]

What was it Brennan Manning used to say?

Jesus: Did you really believe that I loved you? Loved you as you are, and not as you should be? That I cared for you? That I longed after you day-after-day?

Actually, I believe this with all my heart. It's what I've been arguing in favor of throughout the entire thread. Instead of realizing how our Lord continued loving people who were sinning against him, theologians developed the idea that Jesus's Father was pouring out his wrath on him.

journeyman: Yeah sure well you know I was just so full of self-hatred and self-contempt; I wanted to believe it but I was too busy hating the person you loved and died to save.

No good comes from self-hatred, or self-contempt, or the myriad negative emotions, thoughts, feelings, etc., you might hold about yourself. It doesn't make sense, if you see yourself / your sin as beating Jesus mercilessly while also hating the very person Jesus died to save -- you.

Actually, I hate my old nature. I go to war against it every day.

[Athanasius]

Actually, I believe this with all my heart. It's what I've been arguing in favor of throughout the entire thread. Instead of realizing how our Lord continued loving people who were sinning against him, theologians developed the idea that Jesus's Father was pouring out his wrath on him.

Actually, I hate my old nature. I go to war against it every day.

Hating your 'old nature' and viewing yourself with contempt aren't the same thing. They aren't mutually exclusive either, so if you view yourself with contempt then what I wrote still applies, and no amount of "actually I espouse this or that theology" resolves the point I raised.

On the other hand, "I believe it with all my heart" and "you're not hearing the contempt I have for myself" are mutually exclusive. Maybe you misspoke, and you don't view yourself with contempt? (But then, exactly what was the point you were trying to convey?)

[Slug1]

I hope you come to realize that what sinners did to Jesus, they were doing to God.

I pray you come to realize that what God the Father "did" to God the Son, is so the sinners you are referring to, can be saved.

[journeyman]

Hating your 'old nature' and viewing yourself with contempt aren't the same thing.

It is to me. Regardless, my point was, I don't view myself as better than others. I view our Lord as better than others and sticking to the thread topic, so did his Father.

[journeyman]

I pray you come to realize that what God the Father "did" to God the Son, is so the sinners you are referring to, can be saved.

What God "allowed" to happen. If God didn't allow sinners time to repent for the miserable way we've treated him, none of us would be left. That's the gospel Jesus teaches.

[Athanasius]

It is to me. Regardless, my point was, I don't view myself as better than others. I view our Lord as better than others and sticking to the thread topic, so did his Father.

Then you need to consider more carefully the difference between 'contempt' and (righteous) hatred. If you believe what you say you believe then it would be prudent to stop confusing the two.

[journeyman]

Then you need to consider more carefully the difference between 'contempt' and (righteous) hatred. If you believe what you say you believe then it would be prudent to stop confusing the two.

Righteous hatred is contempt for self, not others. I understand that Jesus doesn't condemn me. This doesn't mean I should forget what a wretch I am. But this is a side issue that I shouldn't have addressed to begin with.

The point is, our Lord Jesus is the same as his Father, even though he appeared as a man. Reread the scriptures that way and you will understand them in a way you never did before. You'll understand them the right way.

[Athanasius]

Righteous hatred is contempt for self, not others. I understand that Jesus doesn't condemn me. This doesn't mean I should forget what a wretch I am. But this is a side issue that I shouldn't have addressed to begin with.

The point is, our Lord Jesus is the same as his Father, even though he appeared as a man. Reread the scriptures that way and you will understand them in a way you never did before. You'll understand them the right way.

I'm short of time so I'll reply in full later on, but this is the theological mess that happens when you don't properly distinguish between words.

[RabbiKnife]

Jesus did not “appear as a man.”

He was fully man, and fully God.

[journeyman]

Being fully God, Jesus didn't appear that way to the people he first walked among. He appeared to be only a man.

It's good to know Jesus was and always will be fully God. God could never be curse to himself.

[Athanasius]

Righteous hatred is contempt for self, not others. I understand that Jesus doesn't condemn me. This doesn't mean I should forget what a wretch I am. But this is a side issue that I shouldn't have addressed to begin with.

Righteous hatred isn't 'contempt for self'. When something, or someone, is held in contempt, then this is a view, or an act, that is fundamentally derisive, disrespectful, and so on, of something, or someone, that ought to otherwise be valued. Contempt is always relative to that which is worth something, or valuable. It's part of the act of denying the worth that something or someone has. It is wholly negative.

Righteous hatred, on the other hand, is the proper working out of hatred towards that which is a deserving object of said hatred such as evil, or sin. These things are never worth something, and are never valuable in that they are goods we should pursue. Unlike contempt, righteous hatred is wholly positive when properly applied. It is a good thing to hate evil. (But there is always the temptation for righteous hatred to be misapplied by humans and become, itself, evil in its application.)

When you confuse righteous hatred with contempt for self, you confuse the positive and negative aspects of either, and thus fail to differentiate between the good of the one from the evil of the other. One of these things is proper, and one is improper.

More to the point, nowhere in Scripture are we told to hold ourselves in contempt. If you want to derisively view yourself as a 'wretch' then go for it, but make sure your theology is spot on. I'm very well aware of the sin that I'm aware of. I have introspected and prayed enough to know that the longer I consider my being the more I realise how awful the reality is. But Jesus knew that, and more, about me when I was mere potential. Whatever I find out about myself, Jesus already knew, and He still gave up His life to save mine.

That's the point of the song, right? "He saved a wretch like me". Not, "I'm a wretch I'll be self-contemptuous now". There is a multitude of properly critical attitudes and views towards the self, but contempt is at the extreme and not one of them. Self-contempt is to (unrighteously) hate who Jesus loves, and loved enough to die for.

The point is, our Lord Jesus is the same as his Father, even though he appeared as a man.

The same, or the same substance as the Father? And, what do you mean 'he appeared as a man'. Do you mean He appeared on earth vis-a-vis His incarnation (that is, fully human and fully God), or do you mean He only appeared to be human, which is some Docetic fallacy? (Or some form of Monarchianism, maybe?)

Reread the scriptures that way and you will understand them in a way you never did before. You'll understand them the right way.

You aren't going to convince anyone of that if you can't be bothered to properly understand contempt and righteous hatred.