Our Lord Jesus Was Made A Curse?

[journeyman]

I've never experienced what you just stated.

The Apostles did, because Christ was in them. They knew very well how our Savior felt when they were persecuted and by his Spirit turned their anger away from their tormentors. Propitiation.

Edit: Let me add, should people do what you state, they're opinion does not change the meaning of "propitiation."

I should hope not, as giving someone what they deserve for wrongs committed is the opposite of propitiation.

Also, this past Sunday (3 Oct), our pastor raised the meaning of "propitiation" in the message brought forth. When I listened I was smiling, God always provides confirmation.

I hope your pastor has truly experienced the propitiation of Jesus in his life toward other sinners.

[RabbiKnife]

“When I use a word,” Humpty Dumpty said in rather a scornful tone, “it means just what I choose it to mean—neither more nor less.”

 “The question is,” said Alice, “whether you can make words mean so many different things.”

 “The question is,” said Humpty Dumpty, “which is to be master—that's all.”

Lewis Carroll: Through the Looking-Glass

[journeyman]

To wit, that God was in Christ, reconciling the world unto himself, not imputing their trespasses unto them; and hath committed unto us the word of reconciliation.
Now then we are ambassadors for Christ, as though God did beseech you by us: we pray you in Christ's stead, be ye reconciled to God. ---->For he hath made him to be sin for us, who knew no sin;[/b] that we might be made the righteousness of God in him.2Cor.5:19-21

Jesus came in the likeness of the Prophets and Apostles. Maybe in our times, he isn't coming to the lost very often.

[Slug1]

The Apostles did, because Christ was in them. They knew very well how our Savior felt when they were persecuted and by his Spirit turned their anger away from their tormentors. Propitiation.

In your previous post you stated:

And when people mention "propitiation", they often use it in a way that implies our Lord Jesus iwas someone other than God.

I made the comment that I've never experienced this. Meaning, I have never heard anyone teach or even allude to, that propitiation is about Christ NOT being God.


So what I just quoted for this response, well... while I understand your statement, it does not touch near the fullness of what propitiation means.

[RandyPNW]

We are a mixed breed and need to be scrutinized constantly.

I agree.

I don't know what that means.

it means Jesus, being One with his Father, turned his own wrath away from sinners.

You continue to protest statements that *nobody is making!* Nobody is saying the Father was "punishing" His own Son.

People here believe God poured his wrath out on his Son and you seem to agree with this. Do you believe God poured his wrath out on Jesus?

He was visiting the punishment upon him that we all deserved, as sinners.

If you don't think God can visit punishment upon Jesus that we deserved then you don't understand NT doctrine.[

The basis for our redemption was that Jesus took what we deserve and then forgave us for it. This is Christianity 101.

Your Jewish friend does not have "special revelation" on this when he contradicts it, revises it, and therefore distorts it.

Nobody will make Christian doctrine any simpler by reducing it to a strictly human understanding. It *always* required divine revelation to understand something that God Himself did!

It sounds like you're referring to OT passages which say God visits the iniquity of fathers to future generations of their children. This doesn't mean God punishes children for sins their fathers committed. It means God punishes future generations who commit sin as their fathers did,

Yet say ye, Why? doth not the son bear the iniquity of the father? Eze.18:19

It means that somebody does not experience punishment for doing something that somebody else does.

No. it means it's not God's will that someone be punished for what someone else dioes.

That is generally true.

No. it's always true where God's will is concerned.

But it is not true with respect to Jesus, who did indeed receive punishment for things we deserved.

But not from his Father where sin is being judged.

He did not deserve the punishment from men he received, and yet God gave him up to experience that.

Yes he did, but as the express image of himself. This is why it says,

Yet it pleased the LORD to bruise him; he hath put him to grief: when thou shalt make his soul an offering for sin, he shall see his seed, he shall prolong his days, and the pleasure of the LORD shall prosper in his hand. Isa.53:10

It pleases God that his Son feels the same way his Father is grieved and longsuffering when people sin against him.

Rev
What do you think this means, Journeyman?

Heb 2.9 But we do see Jesus, who was made lower than the angels for a little while, now crowned with glory and honor because he suffered death, so that by the grace of God he might taste death for everyone.

While it's true that Jesus was not "punished" for what we do, he did receive the punishment that sinners deserve in order to forgive them. He "tasted death for everyone.

The writer of Hebrews is quoting the OT with respect to Jesus. He's saying the Father set his Son (a man) over all creation. While he was "made lower" than angels, he was still above them. Same for anything, including death, which he tasted and no doubt spit out. Point is, our Lord proved to every man he is superior to all.

And when he says,

For if the message spoken through angels proved to be so firm that every violation or disobedience received its just penalty, Heb2:2,

He means, every disobedience receives its just penalty. So Jesus wasn't paying any just penalty.

I'm going to have to let you go on this, since you're unwilling to change your opinion. Your view is contrary to ages of belief in the Church, but that doesn't seem to bother you? It sure would bother me!

Generally, it is true that men don't get punished for things they didn't do. But Jesus was unique, and his situation can never apply to other men. He was the Son of God and experienced *what he did not deserve.* God his Father laid on him the punishment that *we deserve.*

May the Lord help you with this.

[RabbiKnife]

To wit, that God was in Christ, reconciling the world unto himself, not imputing their trespasses unto them; and hath committed unto us the word of reconciliation.
Now then we are ambassadors for Christ, as though God did beseech you by us: we pray you in Christ's stead, be ye reconciled to God. ---->For he hath made him to be sin for us, who knew no sin;[/b] that we might be made the righteousness of God in him.2Cor.5:19-21

Jesus came in the likeness of the Prophets and Apostles. Maybe in our times, he isn't coming to the lost very often.

Jesus did not come "in the likeness" of anyone.  There were no apostles prior to Jesus... it was the sending of men with the Gospel that made one an apostle.  And Jesus was not "in the likeness" of an Old Testament prophet.  John the Baptist was the last and greatest of the Old Testament prophets.

And contrary to your thought, Jesus comes to the lost every single day, as He desires that no human being should ever be lost, but that every single human being should be reconciled to the Father through His propitiation and being made sin for them.  Because, "while we were still sinners, Christ died for us."

[journeyman]

I made the comment that I've never experienced this. Meaning, I have never heard anyone teach or even allude to, that propitiation is about Christ NOT being God.

I know what you meant Slug. Please forgive my sarcasm. My point was, God doesn't pour his wrath out on himself.

So what I just quoted for this response, well... while I understand your statement, it does not touch near the fullness of what propitiation means.

Propitiation is the means by which God is appeased. He's appeased by his own nature.

[journeyman]

Your view is contrary to ages of belief in the Church, but that doesn't seem to bother you? It sure would bother me!

It bothered me that for a long time, I didn't know the Lord that well.

Generally, it is true that men don't get punished for things they didn't do. But Jesus was unique, and his situation can never apply to other men. He was the Son of God and experienced *what he did not deserve.* God his Father laid on him the punishment that *we deserve.*

No, he laid on him the iniquity of us all, which is hatred for God and those who love God experienced it,

They were stoned, they were sawn asunder, were tempted, were slain with the sword: they wandered about in sheepskins and goatskins; being destitute, afflicted, tormented; Of whom the world was not worthy: Heb.11:37-38

If ye be reproached for the name of Christ, happy are ye; for the spirit of glory and of God resteth upon you 1Per.4:14

and the reproaches of them that reproached thee are fallen upon me. Psa.69:9

It's his greatness.

May the Lord help you with this.

And you also kind sir.

[journeyman]

Jesus did not come "in the likeness" of anyone.

Wherefore in all things it behoved him to be made like unto his brethren, Heb.2:17

God sending his own Son in the likeness of sinful flesh Rom.8:3

And contrary to your thought, Jesus comes to the lost every single day, as He desires that no human being should ever be lost, but that every single human being should be reconciled to the Father through His propitiation and being made sin for them.  Because, "while we were still sinners, Christ died for us."

I wonder if that's how believers represent Christ to the lost.

[RabbiKnife]

Both of the verses you quoted are attesting to the fact of the incarnation and the nature of the hypostatic union, not to the suggestion that Jesus is "like" or "similar" to any other being in all of history.

Certainly not that he was "in the likeness" of a prophet or apostle.


Of course "that" referenced above is how believers communicate the truth of the Gospel and Christ being made sin for us to the unbelieving world.

It's called "the Gospel" for a reason.

[Slug1]

I know what you meant Slug. Please forgive my sarcasm. My point was, God doesn't pour his wrath out on himself.

Propitiation is the means by which God is appeased. He's appeased by his own nature.

I mentioned/asked earlier about how your theology is missing God's wrath. Even in the garden, Jesus "KNEW" His Father's wrath is about to be poured out ONTO Himself... so, your comments here, confirm your misunderstanding(s).

[Pbminimum]

How can one become sin, and not suffer the consequence of sin, or the curse of it ?

By the way, good to hear from some of you !

[Slug1]

How can one become sin, and not suffer the consequence of sin, or the curse of it ?

By the way, good to hear from some of you !

Hooah, God bless ya brother, joyful to see ya!

[journeyman]

Both of the verses you quoted are attesting to the fact of the incarnation and the nature of the hypostatic union, not to the suggestion that Jesus is "like" or "similar" to any other being in all of history.

Certainly not that he was "in the likeness" of a prophet or apostle.

The LORD thy God will raise up unto thee a Prophet from the midst of thee, of thy brethren, like unto me; unto him ye shall hearken; Deut.18:15

Art thou that prophet?..Jn.1:21.[/quote]

Point is, Israel persecuted her prophets, as they did the Messiah. The difference is, no excuse can be given for abusing the Messiah, as he was God on earth and this is the proper way to understand his sacrifice.

Of course "that" referenced above is how believers communicate the truth of the Gospel and Christ being made sin for us to the unbelieving world.

It's called "the Gospel" for a reason.

I was speaking of the character of the person communicating the gospel, as his character should be conformed to the image of Christ and the reason for "that" is because the gospel is how Jesus chose not to destroy people who deserved it.

[RabbiKnife]

Your hermeneutic is so strange to me that I cannot understand a thing you are trying to communicate.

Carry on.
I'm out of this discussion.