Question about Nephilim

[Taylor]

Are Nephilim descendants responsible for most of the evil in the world?  And if so, why don't religious leaders, pastors, etc. ever mention it?

Looking around, we can see society breaking down more and more, every day.   My friends, neighbors and family are all Christians.   So who (and what) are these people doing all of the evil around the globe?

[RandyPNW]

Nephilim may simply refer to very large people. In a race featuring larger than average sizes, they can be referred to as Nephilim, as compared with other races.

Some literature in the Early Church indicated it was believed that the term in Genesis referred to fallen angels. That may have been believed, as such.

However, it was written that they had sexual relations with people, indicating to me that these were just large men--not angels. I don't believe angels and people can procreate or have sexual relations.

[Athanasius]

Are Nephilim descendants responsible for most of the evil in the world?

No. The Nephilim - who were not transgender transspecies fallen angels - were destroyed in the flood.

Looking around, we can see society breaking down more and more, every day. My friends, neighbors and family are all Christians. So who (and what) are these people doing all of the evil around the globe?

They're people just like you, your friends, your neighbours, and your family. If you think there's a strong divide, a 'you' vs 'them' mentality, then you aren't being honest with yourself.

[agnostic]

Are Nephilim descendants responsible for most of the evil in the world?

According to 1 Enoch, Jubilees, a handful of Dead Sea Scrolls, and some NT books which used 1 Enoch.

And if so, why don't religious leaders, pastors, etc. ever mention it?

Because those other books are not biblical canon in most of Christianity. 1 Enoch lost popularity by the fifth century, and theologians like Augustine came up with different views to avoid accepting that Genesis says angels and humans had children. Most importantly, the idea that the world's problems originated with the Nephilim doesn't easily fit with the idea that the world's problems originated with Adam.

1 Enoch and Jubilees are canonical in one or two Eastern Orthodox denominations, so they've found a way to fit it into their theology.

[Taylor]

Nephilim may simply refer to very large people. In a race featuring larger than average sizes, they can be referred to as Nephilim, as compared with other races.

Some literature in the Early Church indicated it was believed that the term in Genesis referred to fallen angels. That may have been believed, as such.

However, it was written that they had sexual relations with people, indicating to me that these were just large men--not angels. I don't believe angels and people can procreate or have sexual relations.

Well then, what you believe does not jive with the Old Testiment.  Just sayin....

[Taylor]

No. The Nephilim - who were not transgender transspecies fallen angels - were destroyed in the flood.

Not all of them were destroyed in the flood.  The Old Testament refers to the Anakites and other peoples that descended from Nephilim.   A common physical characteristic was their greater size and height, hence... the "giants".   The Israelites were commanded by God to destroy entire cities.... men, women, children and animals.   Why do you think that is?

They're people just like you, your friends, your neighbours, and your family. If you think there's a strong divide, a 'you' vs 'them' mentality, then you aren't being honest with yourself.

No, they're not anything like me, my family, friends and/or neighbors.   They are evil beings doing evil deeds.   God gives us the power of discernment (if you pray for it).   Discerning between good and evil is crucial.... especially in these 'last' days.

[Athanasius]

Not all of them were destroyed in the flood.  The Old Testament refers to the Anakites and other peoples that descended from Nephilim.   A common physical characteristic was their greater size and height, hence... the "giants".   The Israelites were commanded by God to destroy entire cities.... men, women, children and animals.   Why do you think that is?

Or is that what the spies said, out of fear, having not been around during the time of Noah to see what the Nephilim actually looked like? The people are strong! The land devours everyone!! THERE ARE NEPHILIM!!!

Let's not ignore that:

- Angels are an entirely different species than humans
- There's no reason to think that angels find human beings sexually attractive
- There's no reason to think that angels are sexual beings at all
- There's no reason to think that even if angels are sexual, that they are genetically compatible with humans (being a different species and all)
- There's no reason to think that angels can transmogrify themselves into human males
- There's no reason to think that these fallen angels are master geneticists that could produce supercharged sperm resulting in giant offspring
- There's every reason to question how the idea of transgender angels impacts on the notion of humans as being made in the image of God.

And on, and on, and on. The spies of Numbers 13 were plain old cowards looking for excuses.

(And no, none of this is against the OT. What it's against are poor readings of the OT.)

No, they're not anything like me, my family, friends and/or neighbors.   They are evil beings doing evil deeds.   God gives us the power of discernment (if you pray for it).   Discerning between good and evil is crucial.... especially in these 'last' days.

Have you read any books like 'Ordinary Men' (Browning)? The point isn't that they're like you, it's that you're just as capable of the evil around you as anyone else is. So it's no big mystery who the evil people are. Beyond all the hardened criminals and serial killers and whatever else, it's normal, everyday people.

[RandyPNW]

Nazianzus: Very good questions--well beyond what I've normally asked on this subject. Excellent!

[Athanasius]

Nazianzus: Very good questions--well beyond what I've normally asked on this subject. Excellent!

Yes, well -- ahem -- putting my knowledge of all things trans to use.

[Taylor]

Nazianzus: Very good questions--well beyond what I've normally asked on this subject. Excellent!

Yes, well -- ahem -- putting my knowledge of all things trans to use.

Ok, I admit it.   I'm confused now.   What does any of this have to do with "trans"?   Please explain.

[Taylor]

Not all of them were destroyed in the flood.  The Old Testament refers to the Anakites and other peoples that descended from Nephilim.   A common physical characteristic was their greater size and height, hence... the "giants".   The Israelites were commanded by God to destroy entire cities.... men, women, children and animals.   Why do you think that is?

Or is that what the spies said, out of fear, having not been around during the time of Noah to see what the Nephilim actually looked like? The people are strong! The land devours everyone!! THERE ARE NEPHILIM!!!

Let's not ignore that:

- Angels are an entirely different species than humans
- There's no reason to think that angels find human beings sexually attractive
- There's no reason to think that angels are sexual beings at all
- There's no reason to think that even if angels are sexual, that they are genetically compatible with humans (being a different species and all)
- There's no reason to think that angels can transmogrify themselves into human males
- There's no reason to think that these fallen angels are master geneticists that could produce supercharged sperm resulting in giant offspring
- There's every reason to question how the idea of transgender angels impacts on the notion of humans as being made in the image of God.

And on, and on, and on. The spies of Numbers 13 were plain old cowards looking for excuses.

(And no, none of this is against the OT. What it's against are poor readings of the OT.)

No, they're not anything like me, my family, friends and/or neighbors.   They are evil beings doing evil deeds.   God gives us the power of discernment (if you pray for it).   Discerning between good and evil is crucial.... especially in these 'last' days.

Have you read any books like 'Ordinary Men' (Browning)? The point isn't that they're like you, it's that you're just as capable of the evil around you as anyone else is. So it's no big mystery who the evil people are. Beyond all the hardened criminals and serial killers and whatever else, it's normal, everyday people.

You sound like you are an expert on angels.   How many of them have you met and/or known?

And no, I haven't read Ordinary Men.   And no, I am not capable of the evil around me.   To me, all life is sacred and precious....as it is created and given by God.

[Athanasius]

You sound like you are an expert on angels. How many of them have you met and/or known?

Given Hebrews 13:2, I couldn't say. Do you have any thoughts on my seven points beyond this implied, "yeah but since we don't know a lot about angels it could be true right, right?"

And no, I haven't read Ordinary Men. And no, I am not capable of the evil around me. To me, all life is sacred and precious....as it is created and given by God.

That's what a great many people who commit evil, including some of those chronicled in Ordinary Men. But getting back to your question:

"So who (and what) are these people doing all of the evil around the globe?"

Since it's normal, every day people, who are you planning on doing with that information?

[agnostic]

Or is that what the spies said, out of fear, having not been around during the time of Noah to see what the Nephilim actually looked like? The people are strong! The land devours everyone!! THERE ARE NEPHILIM!!!

I do not agree that dismissing the scouts' claim that they saw Nephilim as cowardly hyperbole is an honest interpretation of the text. (The narrative goes on to prove their concerns correct.) The narrator of the book inserts a parenthetical note that says the Anakites in Canaan are descended from the Nephilim.

Let's not ignore that:

Your objections are anachronistic. The ancient world did not share your criticisms.

"The sons of God" (sons of elohim) elsewhere in the Old Testament always refers to angels. The label evolved from a regional term for the divine beings in heaven, the "sons of El."

It's not a coincidence the earliest interpretations of Genesis 6 all agreed the "sons of God" were angels who had sex with humans and fathered giants. 1 Enoch (fourth century BCE through first century BCE), the Septuagint (third century BCE), Jubilees (third century BCE), the Dead Sea Scrolls (third century BCE through first century CE), Philo (first century CE), Josephus (first century CE), Jude (first century CE). Christian acceptance of this interpretation continued for a few centuries before waning.

The epistle of Jude is the earliest Christian text to weigh in on the issue. Its author regarded 1 Enoch as scripture equal to the traditional Old Testament. The author borrows a lot of his wording and metaphors from 1 Enoch, and quotes a Greek translation of 1 Enoch 1:9 in Jude 1:14-15. Then we have

Jude 1:6-7 And the angels who did not keep their own position, but left their proper dwelling, he has kept in eternal chains in deepest darkness for the judgement of the great day. Likewise, Sodom and Gomorrah and the surrounding cities, which, in the same manner as they, indulged in sexual immorality and pursued unnatural lust, serve as an example by undergoing a punishment of eternal fire.

Jude first mentions angels that sinned, then he mentions how Sodom "indulged in sexual immorality". He is presenting two stories from Genesis in sequence. The second is obviously from Genesis 19, where the men of Sodom attempt to have sex with angels. He also says that Sodom engaged in sexual sin "likewise" and "in the same manner as they," the antecedent angels who "left their proper dwelling." Which story in Genesis 1-18 could be read as angels "indulged in sexual immorality?" Clearly, the same story every reader of Genesis agreed up until Jude's time was a story about angels committing a sexual sin and producing the Nephilim.

[Taylor]

Given Hebrews 13:2, I couldn't say. Do you have any thoughts on my seven points beyond this implied, "yeah but since we don't know a lot about angels it could be true right, right?"

My main thought on your points about angels is... it's not based in Biblical teaching.   It goes directly against what it says in the Old Testament.   So, if one were to 'throw our' part of the Old Testament (the part that one doesn't agree with).... which parts would one choose to refute?   It's a slippery slope ....cherry-picking certain parts of the Bible to ignore, wouldn't you agree?   

And please don't give me that "interpretation" excuse.   It's clear as day what the Bible says about sons of god (angels) going into sons of man (human women).  No interpretation needed (for me, at least).

That's what a great many people who commit evil, including some of those chronicled in Ordinary Men. But getting back to your question:

"So who (and what) are these people doing all of the evil around the globe?"

Since it's normal, every day people, who are you planning on doing with that information?

I have no idea what your question is getting at.  We're having a discussion.   There are questions I have had that I wanted answers and feedback on.   I never said that I would agree with all of that feedback, however.

[Athanasius]

My main thought on your points about angels is... it's not based in Biblical teaching.   It goes directly against what it says in the Old Testament.   So, if one were to 'throw our' part of the Old Testament (the part that one doesn't agree with).... which parts would one choose to refute?   It's a slippery slope ....cherry-picking certain parts of the Bible to ignore, wouldn't you agree?

Okay but, do you have any specific disagreements with my questions like agnostic does? He didn't interact with them and instead favoured a textual/historical argument (in an attempt to demonstrate my questions don't matter because this is apparently the original authors, audience, etc. believed).

Would you do the same, and if so, would you have anything to add? At the moment you are ignoring the points, but only through bare assertion and then this mention of ignoring parts of the OT and slippery slopes, and gas lighting -- oh, gas lighting.

And please don't give me that "interpretation" excuse.   It's clear as day what the Bible says about sons of god (angels) going into sons of man (human women).  No interpretation needed (for me, at least).

That's good for you, then. The view in question isn't universal or uncontentious.

I have no idea what your question is getting at.  We're having a discussion.   There are questions I have had that I wanted answers and feedback on.   I never said that I would agree with all of that feedback, however.

I'm asking what your thoughts are on that feedback. Clearly, you disagree with the idea that you could commit evil, but you were asking where those evil acts were coming from. Now that you know, what do you think?