Cain's action

[journeyman]

That's...not what the bible says. Isaiah 11: the earth will be filled with the knowledge of the Lord as the waters cover the sea. That means everyone. He will raise a banner for the nations and gather the exiles of Israel; he will assemble the scattered people of Judah from the four quarters of the earth. Jewish exiles haven't been completely gathered yet. Isaiah 2: They will beat their swords into plowshares and their spears into pruning hooks. Nation will not take up sword against nation, nor will they train for war anymore. That hasn't happened yet.

It has been happening since the Messiah came. No one has to use a plane or boat to get to God's holy mountain. It's entered by faith in him,

his rest shall be glorious. Isa.11:10

Peace I leave with you, my peace I give unto you: not as the world giveth, give I unto you. Let not your heart be troubled, neither let it be afraid. Jn.14:27

Believers have been beating their swords into plowshares since the Messiah appeared.

[journeyman]

What do you think "the blood of Jesus Christ, his Son, cleanses us from all sin" in 1 John 1:7 means? You think it is Jesus' life and not his death that cleanses us from sin? If we temporarily set aside "crushed for [from] our iniquities", the latter part of Isaiah 53:5 says "by his wounds we are healed". We are healed (and our sins are forgiven) because Jesus suffered (and died).

Yes my friend, but the Messiah is the image of God on earth, enduring the sinfulness of people without immediately bringing evildoers into judgement. We are healed because we see how he patiently endured mankinds unrighteousness treatment against himself. If that doesn't cause humbly coming to God in repentance, nothing will.

[Fenris]

It has been happening since the Messiah came. No one has to use a plane or boat to get to God's holy mountain. It's entered by faith in him,

I mean, it's fine if you want to believe this. But I don't see anyplace in the bible that it's anything but an actual place.

Believers have been beating their swords into plowshares since the Messiah appeared.

And they're being protected by those who kept their swords. Those who, you would say, are less moral than they are, yet risk their lives to protect others. I never got that.

[greenonions]

So it sounds like you are saying that Jesus' death demonstrates love which draws people to repentance and life. That is true, but it is Jesus' death which turns away God's wrath and need to punish our sins.

1 John 2:1 And he is the atoning sacrifice[ b ] for our sins, and not for ours only, but also for the whole world.

[Footnote b: “atoning sacrifice” is from the Greek “ιλασμος”, an appeasing, propitiating, or the means of appeasement or propitiation—the sacrifice that turns away God’s wrath because of our sin.]

The blood typically refers to blood that is outside the body, and symbolizes death. For example, at the first Passover, the Israelites painted blood on the doorposts and lintel of the houses. When God sees the blood, He means blood that is outside of the animal, indicating that the animal was killed.

Exodus 12:13 The blood shall be to you for a token on the houses where you are. When I see the blood, I will pass over you, and no plague will be on you to destroy you when I strike the land of Egypt.

Other verses that link Jesus' sacrifice to forgiveness of sins, and not the obedience of people who repent (repentance is necessary, but not sufficient without Jesus' sacrifice).

Romans 5:18 So then as through one trespass, all men were condemned; even so through one act of righteousness, all men were justified to life. 19 For as through the one man’s disobedience many were made sinners, even so through the obedience of the one, many will be made righteous.

Hebrews 9:27 ... But now once at the end of the ages, he has been revealed to put away sin by the sacrifice of himself. ... 10:10 by which will we have been sanctified through the offering of the body of Jesus Christ once for all. ... 14 For by one offering he has perfected forever those who are being sanctified.

What do you think "the blood of Jesus Christ, his Son, cleanses us from all sin" in 1 John 1:7 means? You think it is Jesus' life and not his death that cleanses us from sin? If we temporarily set aside "crushed for [from] our iniquities", the latter part of Isaiah 53:5 says "by his wounds we are healed". We are healed (and our sins are forgiven) because Jesus suffered (and died).

Yes my friend, but the Messiah is the image of God on earth, enduring the sinfulness of people without immediately bringing evildoers into judgement. We are healed because we see how he patiently endured mankinds unrighteousness treatment against himself. If that doesn't cause humbly coming to God in repentance, nothing will.

[greenonions]

Let's go to the beginning of the passage, disregarding the "horrible chapter break".

Isaiah 52:13 Behold, my servant will deal wisely.
    He will be exalted and lifted up,
    and will be very high.
14 Just as many were astonished at you—
    his appearance was marred more than any man, and his form more than the sons of men—
15 so he will cleanse[a] many nations.
    Kings will shut their mouths at him;
    for they will see that which had not been told them,
    and they will understand that which they had not heard.
53:1 Who has believed our message?
    To whom has Yahweh’s arm been revealed?

Isaiah 52:13 is God speaking about "my servant". Verse 14 "just as" and Verse 15 "so" indicates a comparison between the servant's "marred appearance" (and associated sufferings) and his "cleansing/sprinkling many nations" (and success). Kings will understand -- they do not understand until after the servant is highly exalted, namely in the Messianic era. Do you agree that if the kings gave a report, it would be after the beginning of the Messianic era?

You claim that Isaiah 53:1 is the kings speaking. "Who has believed our message?" indicates that there was 1) a message reported in the past which 2) people did not believe. The kings did not understand until now, so 1) they never had this message prior to this late time. At this time when it is clear that the servant is highly exalted, 2) people will believe the message that the servant's suffering was not because the servant was guilty.

Another passage that describes the beginning of the Messianic era (when God destroys the armies of Gog and Magog) indicates that much of Israel's suffering before their deliverance was in fact because of their own sins (as well as others' sins).

Ezekiel 39:21 “I will set my glory among the nations. Then all the nations will see my judgment that I have executed, and my hand that I have laid on them. 22 So the house of Israel will know that I am Yahweh their God, from that day and forward. 23 The nations will know that the house of Israel went into captivity for their iniquity; because they trespassed against me, and I hid my face from them; so I gave them into the hand of their adversaries, and they all fell by the sword. 24 I did to them according to their uncleanness and according to their transgressions. I hid my face from them.
25 “Therefore the Lord Yahweh says: ‘Now I will reverse the captivity of Jacob, and have mercy on the whole house of Israel. I will be jealous for my holy name. 26 They will bear their shame, and all their trespasses by which they have trespassed against me, when they dwell securely in their land, and no one will make them afraid, 27 when I have brought them back from the peoples, and gathered them out of their enemies’ lands, and am sanctified in them in the sight of many nations. 28 They will know that I am Yahweh their God, in that I caused them to go into captivity among the nations, and have gathered them to their own land. Then I will leave none of them captive any more. 29 I won’t hide my face from them any more; for I have poured out my Spirit on the house of Israel,’ says the Lord Yahweh.”

If on the other hand, Isaiah is speaking in Isaiah 53:1, and the servant is Jesus, the report about Jesus would have been preached before the Messianic era (at Jesus' second coming), many people have not believed the message, and Israel receives both peace and healing at the beginning of the Messianic era.

Here is another passage about the beginning of the Messianic era. Jesus, the pierced God, will provide healing by taking away the people's sins.

Zechariah 12:8 In that day Yahweh will defend the inhabitants of Jerusalem. He who is feeble among them at that day will be like David, and David’s house will be like God, like Yahweh’s angel before them. 9 It will happen in that day, that I will seek to destroy all the nations that come against Jerusalem. 10 I will pour on David’s house, and on the inhabitants of Jerusalem, the spirit of grace and of supplication; and they will look to me whom they have pierced; and they shall mourn for him, as one mourns for his only son, and will grieve bitterly for him, as one grieves for his firstborn. ... 13:1  “In that day there will be a spring opened to David’s house and to the inhabitants of Jerusalem, for sin and for uncleanness. 2 It will come to pass in that day, says Yahweh of Armies, that I will cut off the names of the idols out of the land, and they will be remembered no more. I will also cause the prophets and the spirit of impurity to pass out of the land.

True, the word "for" brings some interpretation to the word "from". Do you think "because of" is correct?

In Hebrew the prefix מ "mem" means "from". The word in question is "מִפְּשָׁעֵ֔נוּ" which means "from our sins" and not "for our sins".

I see the report given by Isaiah, "he" being Jesus, "our sins" referring to the sins of Israel, and "healing" to mean actual forgiveness of sins by God and the blessings that accompany that.

I see the report being given by the startled kings in 52:15 (which really belongs in chapter 53, it's a horrible chapter break). "He" being "God's servant" named some 9 times between Is 40 and Is 50 as being the nation of Israel. The "healing" was the nations misconception that by oppressing and murdering Jews, they were actually 'healing' their nation. It's not crazy hyperbole, the Nazis said exactly that.

If the Gentile kings are giving the report as witnesses looking back at history, the timing would be AFTER the restoration of the kingdom of Israel at the beginning of the Messianic age, after all the nations who attack Jerusalem are destroyed. That doesn't sound like healing.

Again, it's their misconception.

[greenonions]

I think you would agree that Isaiah 53:1-11a is spoken by a different speaker than Isaiah 53:11b-12, that talks about "my" servant again. The last 1.5 verses seem to be a recap of the main points mentioned earlier in Isaiah 53:1-11a.

Examples similarities in recap:
1) verse 4 (borne our sickness, carried our suffering) --> verse 11b (bear their iniquities), verse 12 (bore the sins of many)
2) verse 8 (cut off out of the land of the living) --> verse 12 (poured out his soul to death)
3) verse 6 (Yahweh has laid on him the iniquity of us all, where "laid" is a Hebrew word similar to intercede) --> verse 12 (made intercession for the transgressors).

I want to focus on the second half of Isaiah 53:11

My righteous servant will justify many by the knowledge of himself;
    and he will bear their iniquities.

1) The servant is righteous. That's something that Isaiah would not attribute to himself or to his people

Isaiah 64:6 For we have all become like one who is unclean,
    and all our righteousness is like a polluted garment.
We all fade like a leaf;
    and our iniquities, like the wind, take us away.

2) Other people will be justified, or declared righteous. So not just the servant, but other people too. Other people will become more righteous than Isaiah's people were in Isaiah 64:6.

3) The servant bears the iniquities of the #2 people who were justified. These iniquities belong to the #2 people who are justified. If the #2 people were just because they didn't commit iniquity, the servant would have no iniquities to bear. If however, the #2 people were just BECAUSE the servant took away their iniquities, then we have vicarious atonement.

See also Lamentations 5:7 as an example where bearing iniquities means to suffer the consequences of someone else's sins, and not suffering from sins directed towards them.

Lamentations 5:7 Our fathers sinned, and are no more. We have borne their iniquities.

4) If Verse 11b is about vicarious atonement and is part of a recap of Verse 1-11a, then Verses 4-6 also describe vicarious atonement. (Even if Verse 5 means "from" our transgressions, the substitute sin bearer can still suffer "from" our transgressions)

Isaiah 53:4 Surely he has borne our sickness
    and carried our suffering;
yet we considered him plagued,
    struck by God, and afflicted.
5 But he was pierced for our transgressions.
    He was crushed for our iniquities.
The punishment that brought our peace was on him;
    and by his wounds we are healed.

Isaiah 53 describes how Jesus suffered for our sins.

Verse 5 is not a good translation. The Hebrew reads "...he suffered from our sins" not "for our sins". That's a really big difference, because "for our sins" means vicarious atonement whereas "from our sins" simply means that the speaker sinned and hurt the servant.

Jews have always seen 53 as being about the suffering of the Jewish people in exile. And contextually it makes sense, because chapters 52 and 54 are about the redemption of Zion in the messianic era. In that time, the nation will look back and realize that the Jews were not "plagued, struck by God, and afflicted." It was the nations treatment of the Jews that made them suffer, not God.

Anyway another way for you to look a it.

[greenonions]

Yes, the speaker had misconceptions, but this is the structure of the verses:

Truth: Isaiah 53:4 Surely he has borne our sickness
Truth:     and carried our suffering;                               
Misconception: yet we considered him plagued,
Misconception:    struck by God, and afflicted.
Truth: 5 But he was pierced for our transgressions.
Truth:    He was crushed for our iniquities.
Truth: The punishment that brought our peace was on him;
Truth:    and by his wounds we are healed.
Truth: 6 All we like sheep have gone astray.
Truth:    Everyone has turned to his own way;
Truth:    and Yahweh has laid on him the iniquity of us all.

"Surely" in verse 4 indicates truth. The misconception in verse 4 is clearly marked by "we considered". The beginning of verse 5 starts the truth statements, where the speaker(s) acknowledges their own transgressions. The healing is in the truth section. The peace and healing are true, even at the start of the messianic era. Therefore the Gentile kings are not the speakers, because their nations are devastated at the beginning of the messianic era.

True, the word "for" brings some interpretation to the word "from". Do you think "because of" is correct?

In Hebrew the prefix מ "mem" means "from". The word in question is "מִפְּשָׁעֵ֔נוּ" which means "from our sins" and not "for our sins".

I see the report given by Isaiah, "he" being Jesus, "our sins" referring to the sins of Israel, and "healing" to mean actual forgiveness of sins by God and the blessings that accompany that.

I see the report being given by the startled kings in 52:15 (which really belongs in chapter 53, it's a horrible chapter break). "He" being "God's servant" named some 9 times between Is 40 and Is 50 as being the nation of Israel. The "healing" was the nations misconception that by oppressing and murdering Jews, they were actually 'healing' their nation. It's not crazy hyperbole, the Nazis said exactly that.

If the Gentile kings are giving the report as witnesses looking back at history, the timing would be AFTER the restoration of the kingdom of Israel at the beginning of the Messianic age, after all the nations who attack Jerusalem are destroyed. That doesn't sound like healing.

Again, it's their misconception.

[journeyman]

I mean, it's fine if you want to believe this. But I don't see anyplace in the bible that it's anything but an actual place.

It's the place people come to by faith in God,

ye are come unto mount Zion, Heb.12:22

And they're being protected by those who kept their swords. Those who, you would say, are less moral than they are, yet risk their lives to protect others. I never got that.

God is our life. No man made sword preserves our life. And we all have sinned against him.

[journeyman]

So it sounds like you are saying that Jesus' death demonstrates love which draws people to repentance and life. That is true, but it is Jesus' death which turns away God's wrath and need to punish our sins.

1 John 2:1 And he is the atoning sacrifice[ b ] for our sins, and not for ours only, but also for the whole world.

[Footnote b: “atoning sacrifice” is from the Greek “ιλασμος”, an appeasing, propitiating, or the means of appeasement or propitiation—the sacrifice that turns away God’s wrath because of our sin.]

Our Lords sacrifice is God turning his wrath away. People sinning against the Messiah and the Messiah not blasting them into oblivion.

The blood typically refers to blood that is outside the body, and symbolizes death. For example, at the first Passover, the Israelites painted blood on the doorposts and lintel of the houses. When God sees the blood, He means blood that is outside of the animal, indicating that the animal was killed.

Exodus 12:13 The blood shall be to you for a token on the houses where you are. When I see the blood, I will pass over you, and no plague will be on you to destroy you when I strike the land of Egypt.

By putting the bloo on their houses, they were identifying themselves with the Messiahs sacrifice,

when ye do well, and suffer for it.....because Christ also suffered for us, leaving us an example.....1Pet.2:20-21

Look at what he's saying. Jesus suffered for doing good.

Purge out therefore the old leaven, that ye may be a new lump, as ye are unleavened. For even Christ our passover is sacrificed for us: 1Cor.5:7

Other verses that link Jesus' sacrifice to forgiveness of sins, and not the obedience of people who repent (repentance is necessary, but not sufficient without Jesus' sacrifice).

Its our Lords sacrifice that causes repentance. Seeing how sinners (which we all are) have wronged God.

Romans 5:18 So then as through one trespass, all men were condemned; even so through one act of righteousness, all men were justified to life. 19 For as through the one man’s disobedience many were made sinners, even so through the obedience of the one, many will be made righteous.

Hebrews 9:27 ... But now once at the end of the ages, he has been revealed to put away sin by the sacrifice of himself. ... 10:10 by which will we have been sanctified through the offering of the body of Jesus Christ once for all. ... 14 For by one offering he has perfected forever those who are being sanctified.

Hes saying Jesus himself was sinless. Because of this, he rose from death,

For if, when we were enemies, we were reconciled to God by the death of his Son, much more, being reconciled, we shall be saved by his life. Rom.5:10

Now then we are ambassadors for Christ, as though God did beseech you by us: we pray you in Christ's stead, be ye reconciled to God. 2Cor.5:20

We are reconciled to God by confessing our  sin against him and living for him,

He that covereth his sins shall not prosper: but whoso confesseth and forsaketh them shall have mercy. Pro.28:13

[Fenris]

Let's go to the beginning of the passage, disregarding the "horrible chapter break".

Isaiah 52:13 Behold, my servant will deal wisely.
    He will be exalted and lifted up,
    and will be very high.
14 Just as many were astonished at you—
    his appearance was marred more than any man, and his form more than the sons of men—
15 so he will cleanse[a] many nations.
    Kings will shut their mouths at him;
    for they will see that which had not been told them,
    and they will understand that which they had not heard.
53:1 Who has believed our message?
    To whom has Yahweh’s arm been revealed?

Isaiah 52:13 is God speaking about "my servant".

This is correct. Now, before you go any further, the servant is identified by name multiple times between Is 40 and Is 52.

41:8-9 But you, Israel, my servant, Jacob, whom I have chosen, you descendants of Abraham my friend. I brought you from the ends of the earth and called you from its farthest corners. I said, 'You are My servant.' I have chosen and not rejected you.

44:1 Yet now hear, O Jacob my servant; and Israel, whom I have chosen

44:21 Remember these things, O Jacob, for you are My servant, O Israel. I have made you, and you are My servant; O Israel, I will never forget you.

45:4 For the sake of Jacob My servant and Israel My chosen one

and so on.

Verse 14 "just as" and Verse 15 "so" indicates a comparison between the servant's "marred appearance" (and associated sufferings)

The servant's appearance isn't "marred" because of suffering. The servant is considered disgusting and inhuman and not worth looking upon, as indeed the Jews have been by their haters through history. 53:2 (NIV) He had no beauty or majesty to attract us to him, nothing in his appearance that we should desire him.

and his "cleansing/sprinkling many nations" (and success).

"Sprinkling" is probably a bad translation. The Hebrew word יַזֶּה֙  "Yazah" is a verb that means the "sprinkling motion" but in this context I think it means "to cause to shake" (which is the sprinkling motion after all). I've also seen it translated as "to cast down" (although that makes less sense to me. )

Kings will understand -- they do not understand until after the servant is highly exalted, namely in the Messianic era. Do you agree that if the kings gave a report, it would be after the beginning of the Messianic era?

Yes. And as I've said, since Is 52 and 54 are both about the redemption of Zion in the messianic era, it should be seen in this context.

You claim that Isaiah 53:1 is the kings speaking. "Who has believed our message?" indicates that there was 1) a message reported in the past which 2) people did not believe. The kings did not understand until now, so 1) they never had this message prior to this late time. At this time when it is clear that the servant is highly exalted, 2) people will believe the message that the servant's suffering was not because the servant was guilty.

Yes, this is what I claim. Thank you for summing it up.

Another passage that describes the beginning of the Messianic era (when God destroys the armies of Gog and Magog) indicates that much of Israel's suffering before their deliverance was in fact because of their own sins (as well as others' sins).

That's in a different book (Ezekiel) as well as a different discussion, and a different context. Can we stick to Isaiah for now, please?

If on the other hand, Isaiah is speaking in Isaiah 53:1, and the servant is Jesus, the report about Jesus would have been preached before the Messianic era (at Jesus' second coming), many people have not believed the message, and Israel receives both peace and healing at the beginning of the Messianic era.

This doesn't makes sense given the context of the surrounding chapters. You're acting as if Is 53 is actually its own book in the bible. It isn't. The servant is named and the time of Is 53 is given.

Here is another passage about the beginning of the Messianic era. Jesus, the pierced God, will provide healing by taking away the people's sins.

Again, different book, different context.

Zechariah 12:8 look to me whom they have pierced

This is a bad translation. The Hebrew reads more like "They will look to me regrading those who have been stabbed..." in other words, praying to God and mourning for those Jews who have been killed in battle. 

[greenonions]

Yes, Israel is one of the servants mentioned in Isaiah. Here is another servant who brings Jacob again to God (who is not Jacob).

Isaiah 49:5 Now Yahweh, he who formed me from the womb to be his servant,
    says to bring Jacob again to him,
    and to gather Israel to him,
    for I am honorable in Yahweh’s eyes,
    and my God has become my strength.
6 Indeed, he says, “It is too light a thing that you should be my servant to raise up the tribes of Jacob,
    and to restore the preserved of Israel.
I will also give you as a light to the nations,
    that you may be my salvation to the end of the earth.”

"shake" many nations? That is what happens at the start of the Messianic age.

Haggai 2:7 and I will shake all nations. The precious things of all nations will come, and I will fill this house with glory, says Yahweh of Armies.

You agreed with my summing up of Isaiah 53:1. But I was showing that the meaning of the verse contradicts the identification with the Gentile kings.
1) message was reported in the past. --> 1) Gentile kings had no message in the past
2) message was not believed --> 2) Message will be believed if it was told after the servant is exalted

Regarding translation of Zechariah 12:10

וְהִבִּיטוּ (and they look) אֵלַי (to me) אֵת (itself?) אֲשֶׁר (whom) דָּקָרוּ (they stabbed)

I don't see "regarding those" in the Hebrew.

Let's go to the beginning of the passage, disregarding the "horrible chapter break".

Isaiah 52:13 Behold, my servant will deal wisely.
    He will be exalted and lifted up,
    and will be very high.
14 Just as many were astonished at you—
    his appearance was marred more than any man, and his form more than the sons of men—
15 so he will cleanse[a] many nations.
    Kings will shut their mouths at him;
    for they will see that which had not been told them,
    and they will understand that which they had not heard.
53:1 Who has believed our message?
    To whom has Yahweh’s arm been revealed?

Isaiah 52:13 is God speaking about "my servant".

This is correct. Now, before you go any further, the servant is identified by name multiple times between Is 40 and Is 52.

41:8-9 But you, Israel, my servant, Jacob, whom I have chosen, you descendants of Abraham my friend. I brought you from the ends of the earth and called you from its farthest corners. I said, 'You are My servant.' I have chosen and not rejected you.

44:1 Yet now hear, O Jacob my servant; and Israel, whom I have chosen

44:21 Remember these things, O Jacob, for you are My servant, O Israel. I have made you, and you are My servant; O Israel, I will never forget you.

45:4 For the sake of Jacob My servant and Israel My chosen one

and so on.

Verse 14 "just as" and Verse 15 "so" indicates a comparison between the servant's "marred appearance" (and associated sufferings)

The servant's appearance isn't "marred" because of suffering. The servant is considered disgusting and inhuman and not worth looking upon, as indeed the Jews have been by their haters through history. 53:2 (NIV) He had no beauty or majesty to attract us to him, nothing in his appearance that we should desire him.

and his "cleansing/sprinkling many nations" (and success).

"Sprinkling" is probably a bad translation. The Hebrew word יַזֶּה֙  "Yazah" is a verb that means the "sprinkling motion" but in this context I think it means "to cause to shake" (which is the sprinkling motion after all). I've also seen it translated as "to cast down" (although that makes less sense to me. )

Kings will understand -- they do not understand until after the servant is highly exalted, namely in the Messianic era. Do you agree that if the kings gave a report, it would be after the beginning of the Messianic era?

Yes. And as I've said, since Is 52 and 54 are both about the redemption of Zion in the messianic era, it should be seen in this context.

You claim that Isaiah 53:1 is the kings speaking. "Who has believed our message?" indicates that there was 1) a message reported in the past which 2) people did not believe. The kings did not understand until now, so 1) they never had this message prior to this late time. At this time when it is clear that the servant is highly exalted, 2) people will believe the message that the servant's suffering was not because the servant was guilty.

Yes, this is what I claim. Thank you for summing it up.

Another passage that describes the beginning of the Messianic era (when God destroys the armies of Gog and Magog) indicates that much of Israel's suffering before their deliverance was in fact because of their own sins (as well as others' sins).

That's in a different book (Ezekiel) as well as a different discussion, and a different context. Can we stick to Isaiah for now, please?

If on the other hand, Isaiah is speaking in Isaiah 53:1, and the servant is Jesus, the report about Jesus would have been preached before the Messianic era (at Jesus' second coming), many people have not believed the message, and Israel receives both peace and healing at the beginning of the Messianic era.

This doesn't makes sense given the context of the surrounding chapters. You're acting as if Is 53 is actually its own book in the bible. It isn't. The servant is named and the time of Is 53 is given.

Here is another passage about the beginning of the Messianic era. Jesus, the pierced God, will provide healing by taking away the people's sins.

Again, different book, different context.

Zechariah 12:8 look to me whom they have pierced

This is a bad translation. The Hebrew reads more like "They will look to me regrading those who have been stabbed..." in other words, praying to God and mourning for those Jews who have been killed in battle.

[Fenris]

Yes, Israel is one of the servants mentioned in Isaiah. Here is another servant who brings Jacob again to God (who is not Jacob).

Isaiah 49:5 Now Yahweh, he who formed me from the womb to be his servant,
    says to bring Jacob again to him,
    and to gather Israel to him,
    for I am honorable in Yahweh’s eyes,
    and my God has become my strength.
6 Indeed, he says, “It is too light a thing that you should be my servant to raise up the tribes of Jacob,
    and to restore the preserved of Israel.
I will also give you as a light to the nations,
    that you may be my salvation to the end of the earth.”

You're missing the first verses of the chapter here, and it's significant.

Start from 49: Listen to me, you islands;
    hear this, you distant nations:
Before I was born the Lord called me;
    from my mother’s womb he has spoken my name.
 He made my mouth like a sharpened sword,
    in the shadow of his hand he hid me;
he made me into a polished arrow
    and concealed me in his quiver.
 He said to me, “You are my servant,
    Israel, in whom I will display my splendor.”

So the servant is still Israel.

In verse 5 why can't the servant be the prophet Isaiah himself? He even uses "I".

"shake" many nations? That is what happens at the start of the Messianic age.

Again, I like "startle". Yes, it comes in the messianic age.

Haggai 2:7 and I will shake all nations. The precious things of all nations will come, and I will fill this house with glory, says Yahweh of Armies.

This is a different Hebrew word,  "וְהִרְעַשְׁתִּ", something more akin to "I will make thunderous sound". Could be synonymous with "startle".

1) message was reported in the past. --> 1) Gentile kings had no message in the past

I don't understand what you're saying here. In the messianic era, the kings will be startled.

2) message was not believed --> 2) Message will be believed if it was told after the servant is exalted

Yes, the idea was not believed. What idea, specifically? That the despised and downtrodden Jews were correct all along!

Which would be more starling to the world? That 1/3 of the world's population, 2.3 billion Christians, were correct all along? Or that the world's 13 million Jews who comprise less than 2 people out of every thousand were correct all along? Think about it.

Regarding translation of Zechariah 12:10

וְהִבִּיטוּ (and they look) אֵלַי (to me) אֵת (itself?) אֲשֶׁר (whom) דָּקָרוּ (they stabbed)

I don't see "regarding those" in the Hebrew.

You're putting a question mark in the translation. That alone shows you aren't sure. אֵת אֲשֶׁר is idiomatic for "regarding which" or "about whom".

[agnostic]

It may help to give a technical definition of את because it's usage is really clear: this word is a participle used to distinguish an accusative noun of a transitive verb from other nouns (nominative, dative, genitive, vocative) in that context. Hebrew sentence structure can be a little more flexible than English, so this participle always immediately precedes the accusative noun it specifies.

Most of the time it isn't translated, because there's no real way to that wouldn't be cumbersome. In the first verse of Genesis: "God created את the heavens and את the earth." Its use here just means "the heavens and the earth" are the accusative noun modified by "God created."

Since את is used for "the one they've pierced", that person can't be the same person as either "they" or "me". Since "me" is God, then "את the one they've pierced" isn't.

[journeyman]

It's really a shame for someone to have been a member of the church and not understand what this means,

the one who rejects me rejects the one who sent me. Lk.10:16

[Not Worthy]

It's really a shame for someone to have been a member of the church and not understand what this means,

the one who rejects me rejects the one who sent me. Lk.10:16

You'll notice "agnostics" posts and Fenris' posts all go together and support one another's every word. So whether I'm correct or not, I'm not too sure "agnostic"'s posts aren't Fenris' other account.

I could be wrong of course but they do seem kinda like a married couple the way "agnostic" always supports and upholds everything Fenris  says.