Cain's action

[Athanasius]

It's not necessary to quote an entire comment when we can just scroll up to read it. I quote small parts to provide context for what I'm replying to.

Sure, but in replying you seemed to ignore or didn't realise that I was commenting on the notions of active and passive hardening, whereas you took what I said to be a rejection of the idea that God hardens hearts at all or killed or commanded the killing of children.

God hardened their hearts so they would attack Israel just because he can, so why doesn't he soften their hearts so they would help Israel instead?

I don't know why we would assume that God was acting arbitrarily ('just because he can'), or that in acting God forces people to do what they wouldn't naturally do or have done. Or, that God's softening the heart of Sihon would have addressed any underlying issues with sin (looking back to Genesis 15), etc.

(The 'annhiliate' comment was tongue-in-cheek, by the way.)

[Fenris]

That's what rabbis who disagreed with the Messiah thought.

And they had a point.

[journeyman]

And they had a point.

And what was their point Fenris?

[Fenris]

And what was their point Fenris?

That the messianic prophecies remain unfulfilled. Even you guys are waiting for a second coming.

[journeyman]

[That the messianic prophecies remain unfulfilled. Even you guys are waiting for a second coming.

They're being fulfilled now and have been since the Messiah came. Nobody should be waiting for him to return to begin teaching the world about God, because he did that already. That's a fact.

[greenonions]

Isaiah 53:4 Surely he has borne our sickness
    and carried our suffering;
yet we considered him plagued,
    struck by God, and afflicted.
5 But he was pierced for our transgressions.
    He was crushed for our iniquities.
The punishment that brought our peace was on him;
    and by his wounds we are healed.
6 All we like sheep have gone astray.
    Everyone has turned to his own way;
    and Yahweh has laid on him the iniquity of us all.

Isaiah 53 describes how Jesus suffered for our sins.

Romans 3:25-26 says that God is just because he actually punished the sins, something He postponed in the past.

God forgives the repentant because Jesus died for their sins. No blood, no forgiveness.

God forgives the repentant period.

Hebrews 9:22 According to the law, nearly everything is cleansed with blood, and apart from shedding of blood there is no remission.

Heb.9 is speaking of OT sacrifice, which was to produce repentance. 1st, Moses enjoining the law, then Jesus confirming the truth of it, neither of which teach that God punishes the righteous in place of the wicked.

Romans 3:23 for all have sinned, and fall short of the glory of God; 24 being justified freely by his grace through the redemption that is in Christ Jesus; 25 whom God sent to be an atoning sacrifice, through faith in his blood, for a demonstration of his righteousness through the passing over of prior sins, in God’s forbearance; 26 to demonstrate his righteousness at this present time; that he might himself be just, and the justifier of him who has faith in Jesus.

Yes, Jesus passed over the sins being committed against him, as a demonstration of God's righteousness.

God did not always require a sacrifice from the sinner when he forgave the repentant because He was planning to sacrifice Jesus for them in the future.

God didn't always require a sacrifice from sinners because God can forgive sins without sacrifice.

Jesus' death demonstrates God's righteousness, i.e. justice by punishing the sin instead of just passing over them.

Punishing an innocent man for what the guilty do doesn't demonstrate righteousness.

If someone did some horrible things to other people, and the judge just forgave him, that judge would be unfair to the victims and should be called corrupt.

The Judge is the one being sinned against,

Against thee, thee only, have I sinned Psa.51:4

God is not a corrupt judge because He punished Jesus for the sins. We each are personally responsible for our own sins (each man shall die for his own sin), but Jesus voluntarily took our place and our punishment. Jesus is allowed to do that.

A corrupt judge punishes the innocent for what the guilty do. Jesus demonstrated the longsuffering of God, patiently enduring the sins of mankind, without bringing sinners into judgement.

[greenonions]

Forgiveness and righteousness is only possible because of Jesus' death (symbolized by His blood) and resurrection. If all you need to do to be forgiven is to repent, then Jesus didn't need to die and resurrect.

Acts 13:49 and by him everyone who believes is justified from all things, from which you could not be justified by the law of Moses.

1 Corinthians 1:30 Because of him, you are in Christ Jesus, who was made to us wisdom from God, and righteousness and sanctification, and redemption:

1 Corinthians 15:17 If Christ has not been raised, your faith is vain; you are still in your sins.

Galatians 2:21 I don’t reject the grace of God. For if righteousness is through the law, then Christ died for nothing!”

Ephesians 1:7 in whom we have our redemption through his blood, the forgiveness of our trespasses, according to the riches of his grace,

1 John 1:7 But if we walk in the light, as he is in the light, we have fellowship with one another, and the blood of Jesus Christ, his Son, cleanses us from all sin. 8 If we say that we have no sin, we deceive ourselves, and the truth is not in us. 9 If we confess our sins, he is faithful and righteous to forgive us the sins, and to cleanse us from all unrighteousness.

God forgives the repentant because Jesus died for their sins. No blood, no forgiveness.

God forgives the repentant period.

Hebrews 9:22 According to the law, nearly everything is cleansed with blood, and apart from shedding of blood there is no remission.

Heb.9 is speaking of OT sacrifice, which was to produce repentance. 1st, Moses enjoining the law, then Jesus confirming the truth of it, neither of which teach that God punishes the righteous in place of the wicked.

Romans 3:23 for all have sinned, and fall short of the glory of God; 24 being justified freely by his grace through the redemption that is in Christ Jesus; 25 whom God sent to be an atoning sacrifice, through faith in his blood, for a demonstration of his righteousness through the passing over of prior sins, in God’s forbearance; 26 to demonstrate his righteousness at this present time; that he might himself be just, and the justifier of him who has faith in Jesus.

Yes, Jesus passed over the sins being committed against him, as a demonstration of God's righteousness.

God did not always require a sacrifice from the sinner when he forgave the repentant because He was planning to sacrifice Jesus for them in the future.

God didn't always require a sacrifice from sinners because God can forgive sins without sacrifice.

Jesus' death demonstrates God's righteousness, i.e. justice by punishing the sin instead of just passing over them.

Punishing an innocent man for what the guilty do doesn't demonstrate righteousness.

If someone did some horrible things to other people, and the judge just forgave him, that judge would be unfair to the victims and should be called corrupt.

The Judge is the one being sinned against,

Against thee, thee only, have I sinned Psa.51:4

God is not a corrupt judge because He punished Jesus for the sins. We each are personally responsible for our own sins (each man shall die for his own sin), but Jesus voluntarily took our place and our punishment. Jesus is allowed to do that.

A corrupt judge punishes the innocent for what the guilty do. Jesus demonstrated the longsuffering of God, patiently enduring the sins of mankind, without bringing sinners into judgement.

[/quote]

[Fenris]

They're being fulfilled now and have been since the Messiah came. Nobody should be waiting for him to return to begin teaching the world about God, because he did that already. That's a fact.

What about the world peace and universal knowledge of God?

[Fenris]

Isaiah 53:4 Surely he has borne our sickness
    and carried our suffering;
yet we considered him plagued,
    struck by God, and afflicted.
5 But he was pierced for our transgressions.
    He was crushed for our iniquities.
The punishment that brought our peace was on him;
    and by his wounds we are healed.

Isaiah 53 describes how Jesus suffered for our sins.

Verse 5 is not a good translation. The Hebrew reads "...he suffered from our sins" not "for our sins". That's a really big difference, because "for our sins" means vicarious atonement whereas "from our sins" simply means that the speaker sinned and hurt the servant.

Jews have always seen 53 as being about the suffering of the Jewish people in exile. And contextually it makes sense, because chapters 52 and 54 are about the redemption of Zion in the messianic era. In that time, the nation will look back and realize that the Jews were not "plagued, struck by God, and afflicted." It was the nations treatment of the Jews that made them suffer, not God.

Anyway another way for you to look a it.

[journeyman]

Forgiveness and righteousness is only possible because of Jesus' death (symbolized by His blood) and resurrection. If all you need to do to be forgiven is to repent, then Jesus didn't need to die and resurrect.

Thats right. Our Lord forgave sins without sacrifice.. And also came into this world for judgement later.

Acts 13:49 and by him everyone who believes is justified from all things, from which you could not be justified by the law of Moses.

1 Corinthians 1:30 Because of him, you are in Christ Jesus, who was made to us wisdom from God, and righteousness and sanctification, and redemption:

1 Corinthians 15:17 If Christ has not been raised, your faith is vain; you are still in your sins.

Galatians 2:21 I don’t reject the grace of God. For if righteousness is through the law, then Christ died for nothing!”

Ephesians 1:7 in whom we have our redemption through his blood, the forgiveness of our trespasses, according to the riches of his grace,

1 John 1:7 But if we walk in the light, as he is in the light, we have fellowship with one another, and the blood of Jesus Christ, his Son, cleanses us from all sin. 8 If we say that we have no sin, we deceive ourselves, and the truth is not in us. 9 If we confess our sins, he is faithful and righteous to forgive us the sins, and to cleanse us from all unrighteousness.

I never said righteous is by a law that was given to show our unrighteousness. Walking in the light, being honest about oneself, confessing our sins and need of God's mercy is how sin is forgiven. The blood is his life. Look at Fenris response on Isa.53. He's right, except for interpreting it as pertaining to the Jewish people. It's about the Messiah.

[journeyman]

]What about the world peace and universal knowledge of God?

Although the message of the Messiah will be worldwide, only those who come to faith in God are given his peace. The Bible says there will be peace for those in God's holy mountain, not for everyone in the entire world.

[Fenris]

Although the message of the Messiah will be worldwide, only those who come to faith in God are given his peace. The Bible says there will be peace for those in God's holy mountain, not for everyone in the entire world.

That's...not what the bible says. Isaiah 11: the earth will be filled with the knowledge of the Lord as the waters cover the sea. That means everyone. He will raise a banner for the nations and gather the exiles of Israel; he will assemble the scattered people of Judah from the four quarters of the earth. Jewish exiles haven't been completely gathered yet. Isaiah 2: They will beat their swords into plowshares and their spears into pruning hooks. Nation will not take up sword against nation, nor will they train for war anymore. That hasn't happened yet.

[greenonions]

True, the word "for" brings some interpretation to the word "from". Do you think "because of" is correct?

Isaiah 53:5 (NET) He was wounded because of our rebellious deeds, crushed because of our sins; he endured punishment that made us well; because of his wounds we have been healed.

I see the report given by Isaiah, "he" being Jesus, "our sins" referring to the sins of Israel, and "healing" to mean actual forgiveness of sins by God and the blessings that accompany that.

I think you understand this verse to be spoken by the Gentile kings in Isaiah 52:15 who shut their mouths (yet tell a report in 53:1), and "he" meaning Israel, and "our sins" meaning the Gentile persecution of Israel. How could the Gentiles be "made well" (shalom) or be "healed" by persecuting Israel?

Genesis 27:29 WEB Let peoples serve you [Jacob], and nations bow down to you. Be lord over your brothers. Let your mother’s sons bow down to you. Cursed be everyone who curses you. Blessed be everyone who blesses you.”

If the Gentile kings are giving the report as witnesses looking back at history, the timing would be AFTER the restoration of the kingdom of Israel at the beginning of the Messianic age, after all the nations who attack Jerusalem are destroyed. That doesn't sound like healing.

Zechariah 12:9 WEB It will happen in that day, that I will seek to destroy all the nations that come against Jerusalem.

Isaiah 53:4 Surely he has borne our sickness
    and carried our suffering;
yet we considered him plagued,
    struck by God, and afflicted.
5 But he was pierced for our transgressions.
    He was crushed for our iniquities.
The punishment that brought our peace was on him;
    and by his wounds we are healed.

Isaiah 53 describes how Jesus suffered for our sins.

Verse 5 is not a good translation. The Hebrew reads "...he suffered from our sins" not "for our sins". That's a really big difference, because "for our sins" means vicarious atonement whereas "from our sins" simply means that the speaker sinned and hurt the servant.

Jews have always seen 53 as being about the suffering of the Jewish people in exile. And contextually it makes sense, because chapters 52 and 54 are about the redemption of Zion in the messianic era. In that time, the nation will look back and realize that the Jews were not "plagued, struck by God, and afflicted." It was the nations treatment of the Jews that made them suffer, not God.

Anyway another way for you to look a it.

[greenonions]

What do you think "the blood of Jesus Christ, his Son, cleanses us from all sin" in 1 John 1:7 means? You think it is Jesus' life and not his death that cleanses us from sin? If we temporarily set aside "crushed for [from] our iniquities", the latter part of Isaiah 53:5 says "by his wounds we are healed". We are healed (and our sins are forgiven) because Jesus suffered (and died).

Forgiveness and righteousness is only possible because of Jesus' death (symbolized by His blood) and resurrection. If all you need to do to be forgiven is to repent, then Jesus didn't need to die and resurrect.

Thats right. Our Lord forgave sins without sacrifice.. And also came into this world for judgement later.

Acts 13:49 and by him everyone who believes is justified from all things, from which you could not be justified by the law of Moses.

1 Corinthians 1:30 Because of him, you are in Christ Jesus, who was made to us wisdom from God, and righteousness and sanctification, and redemption:

1 Corinthians 15:17 If Christ has not been raised, your faith is vain; you are still in your sins.

Galatians 2:21 I don’t reject the grace of God. For if righteousness is through the law, then Christ died for nothing!”

Ephesians 1:7 in whom we have our redemption through his blood, the forgiveness of our trespasses, according to the riches of his grace,

1 John 1:7 But if we walk in the light, as he is in the light, we have fellowship with one another, and the blood of Jesus Christ, his Son, cleanses us from all sin. 8 If we say that we have no sin, we deceive ourselves, and the truth is not in us. 9 If we confess our sins, he is faithful and righteous to forgive us the sins, and to cleanse us from all unrighteousness.

I never said righteous is by a law that was given to show our unrighteousness. Walking in the light, being honest about oneself, confessing our sins and need of God's mercy is how sin is forgiven. The blood is his life. Look at Fenris response on Isa.53. He's right, except for interpreting it as pertaining to the Jewish people. It's about the Messiah.

[Fenris]

True, the word "for" brings some interpretation to the word "from". Do you think "because of" is correct?

In Hebrew the prefix מ "mem" means "from". The word in question is "מִפְּשָׁעֵ֔נוּ" which means "from our sins" and not "for our sins".

I see the report given by Isaiah, "he" being Jesus, "our sins" referring to the sins of Israel, and "healing" to mean actual forgiveness of sins by God and the blessings that accompany that.

I see the report being given by the startled kings in 52:15 (which really belongs in chapter 53, it's a horrible chapter break). "He" being "God's servant" named some 9 times between Is 40 and Is 50 as being the nation of Israel. The "healing" was the nations misconception that by oppressing and murdering Jews, they were actually 'healing' their nation. It's not crazy hyperbole, the Nazis said exactly that.

If the Gentile kings are giving the report as witnesses looking back at history, the timing would be AFTER the restoration of the kingdom of Israel at the beginning of the Messianic age, after all the nations who attack Jerusalem are destroyed. That doesn't sound like healing.

Again, it's their misconception.