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Theology / Was the Father's will always subordinate to the Son's will?
« on: February 03, 2024, 09:57:20 PM »
Matthew 26:42-43 King James Version

He went away again the second time, and prayed, saying, O my Father, if this cup may not pass away from me, except I drink it, thy will be done. And he came and found them asleep again: for their eyes were heavy.

The scene underscores Jesus' submission to the Father's will and his redemptive sacrifice. This event is central to Christian theology, representing Jesus' surrender into the hands of soldiers as part of the divine plan for humanity's redemption.

Matthew 26:53 King James Version

Thinkest thou that I cannot now pray to my Father, and he shall presently give me more than twelve legions of angels?

This passage seems to suggest that, in stating that He could summon angels through prayer to the Father, Jesus was highlighting His authority over circumstances, including the Father's already established will. This prayer would represent a channel to express, if necessary, the adjustment of the Son's will in line with the already established redemptive plan, disregarding the Father's will.

In summary, does the fact that Jesus changes the will of the Father make Him coequal to Him?

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Theology / Re: Do you know then God of Jesus?
« on: October 24, 2023, 02:38:15 PM »
If this were true, you wouldn't have gone to retrieve the information from Biblical Hermeneutics Stack Exchange, nor would you have posted this ad hominem fallacy against my post, thus revealing your religious bias and strongly supporting the argument that the article is highly relevant and has affected your mind. I am withdrawing from the forum out of respect for the other participants.

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Theology / Re: Do you know then God of Jesus?
« on: October 24, 2023, 01:34:34 PM »
"I am the author of the article, and it encapsulates my response to the question."

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Theology / Re: Do you know then God of Jesus?
« on: October 24, 2023, 11:56:13 AM »
He referred to Him as the ONLY true God. (John 17:3)

The Joanne context 1:

Jesus answered, "I have already told you, and you did not believe me. The proof is the works I do in the name of my Father. But you do not believe me because you are not my sheep. My sheep hear my voice; I know them, and they follow me. I give them eternal life, and they will never perish. No one can snatch them from my hand, for my Father has given them to me, and he is more powerful than all. No one can snatch them from my Father's hand. The Father and I are one." Once again, the Jewish leaders picked up stones to stone him. Jesus said, "By my Father's direction, I have done many good works. For which of these works do you want to stone me?" They replied, "We are not going to stone you for any good work, but for blasphemy. You, a mere man, claim to be God!" New Transforming Version (NVT) © Mundo Cristão - All rights reserved.

If we consider the existence of an ellipsis, the omission of a term in the sentence that is easily understood after the phrase "we are one," this term must be in accordance with the basic grammatical rules of the Greek language, that is, it will be in the singular and in the neuter gender, and the word "name" is the only word in the context in question that satisfies the concordance requirements.

It will be considered that when analyzing the words of the Lord Jesus in parallel, all other theologies are secondary; the Pauline theology should complement, but without distorting the meaning of Jesus' words. Thus, the phrase "The Father and I are one" in the Joanne context, the apostolic autograph 2, is crucial for the understanding of the Doctrine of Unity, as already explained. The word "one" in the phrase in question in Greek is in the neuter gender, so they are not one person, and indeed, Jesus did not claim to be the Father, nor are they a "thing." On this, we will focus on what is already effectively revealed, not on what they may be.

When he says that the Father is in Jesus and Jesus is in the Father 3, as the Son of God 4 in particular 5, in particular, He is God 6, so He is prevented from doing something different from the Father 7, nor can He be less honored 8 and loved 9 than the Father, as well as being fully on the Father's throne 10. Jesus was the only one, and also the first, who, living in the flesh, was uniquely inside the Father 11; here those who sought 12 and did not achieve being 13 inside the first condition of humanity are excluded. Created within the image of God without corruption 14, including even those who were according to God's heart, like Kings David and Ezekiel, who had a greater permanence within God 15. A continuation of staying in God was necessary 16, which reached the whole nation 17. The prophetic project was consummated in the Name given to Jesus 18, for when He prophesied that as a Father 19, He would come in the quality of the Spirit, the Holy Spirit, without losing the previous quality of Father in relation to the children, He revealed the Unity 20 in the church, and it is through the Name of Jesus that we have Unity with God 21. Therefore, God also exalted Jesus, the one called the Logos of God 22, sovereignly, and gave Him a Name that is above every name, which no one knows except Himself 23, and by this Name of the Father, Jesus and the Father are one 24. So that at the Name given to Jesus, every knee should bow, in heaven, on earth, and under the earth, and every tongue should confess that Jesus Christ is Lord, to the glory of God the Father 25.

The interpretation of a union of purposes for the prayer "we are one" is a forced understanding of the Words of Jesus. He literally said, "I am inside God, and I and the Father are one, we are relatives in particular!" 26 The Jews had no doubt that He was claiming to be God 27. Another similar and significant case is Pharaoh's dreams 28, which are two, but their substance is one, one metaphysical essence. "One" does not necessarily mean in this context one dream, as indeed two dream manifestations are understood. This extends to the argument that it is not one person, but two or more, with substantial unity. It is necessary to observe that the prayer "we are one" in the Joanne context, in Aramaic, is also found in the text that narrates Pharaoh's dreams, as well as in the Greek and Hebrew prayers, being the golden text of the article. Another example is that of Adam and Eve, both were one flesh, whether they had a son or more, they were husband and wife, male and female, one flesh. Now, in the case of the pastoral prophecy, in which David represents pastoral unity 29 together with the Father. 30 Following this line of thought, we come to the Church, which is made up of many members, who are one body. The Father and I are one Name, Jesus said without a doubt. Similarly, initially the three persons were one God. In the Scriptures, God is complex, the manifestation of the one in Flesh is truly a mystery.31 As the tabernacled Logos, He is also in the heavens. 32

References in order of appearance

1) John 10:25-33
2) John 21:20,24
3) John 10:38
4) John 10:36
5) 2 Samuel 7:14 LXX, John 5:18
6) Philippians 2:6
7) John 5:19
8 ) John 5:23
9) 1 John 5:1
10) Acts 2:30
11) John 10:38; 14:10
12) 2 Samuel 19:08 LXX, 1 Kings 1:17,30; 2:30, Psalms 17:30 LXX, 18:29 HEB; 44:9 HEB, 55:5 LXX, 56:5 HEB; 107:14 LXX, 108:13 HEB; Hosea 1:7; Habakkuk 3:18, Zechariah 12:5
13) Romans 11:7
14) Genesis 9:6
15) 1 Samuel 30:6, 2 Kings 18:4,5
16) 1 Samuel 25:9; Psalms 32:21 LXX, 33:21 HEB; 43:6, 44:5 HEB; 43:9 LXX, 44:8 HEB; 53:3 LXX, 54:4 HEB; 62:5 LXX HEB; 88:13 LXX, 89:12 HEB; 88:17 LXX, 89:16 HEB; 104:3 LXX, 106:3 HEB; Zechariah 10:12; Daniel 9:6; Mark 9:38; 16:17; Luke 9:49; 10:17; John 5:43; 10:25; 14:13; 14:14; 13:26; 14:14; 14:26; 15:16; 16:23; 16:24; 16:26; 17:12; 20:31; Atos 3:6; 4:10; 9:27,28; 10:48; 1 Coríntios 6:11; Tiago 5:10,14
Here are the literal translations of the provided verses and passages in American English:
17) Zechariah 10:12, Psalms 44:8, Micah 5:4
18) John 20:31
19) John 14:18
20) 1 Corinthians 3:8, 5:4, 12:12, Galatians 3:20, 3:28; 1 John 5:18
21) 1 John 5:20, Romans 5:11, Colossians 3:3, 1 Thessalonians 1:1, 1 John 4:15, 4:16
22) Revelation 19:13
23) Revelation 19:12
24) John 17:11
25) Philippians 2:9-11
26) Luke 1:61
27) John 10:33
28) Genesis 41:26, 41:27
29) Ezekiel 37:24
30) Psalms 23:1; 80:1 HEB
31) Ephesians 3:9
32) John 3:13.

In the above context, as seen before, "The Name" is in the neuter, so Jesus said, it is within the "Name": "in (within) the name of my Father" (John 10:25).

It fulfills the prophecy of Zechariah 14:9: "The LORD will be King over all the earth; in that day the LORD will be one, and His name one." Therefore, there is one Lord, because there is one Name (John 10:30). As the Son of the Father, eternally begotten within righteousness and truth, "...τοῦ υἱοῦ τοῦ πατρὸς ἐν ἀληθείᾳ καὶ ἀγάπῃ..." (John 13:31, 32; 1 Tim 3:16; 2 John 1:3, Romans 3:21, Romans 1:19, 1 John 4:9), He will establish Himself and shepherd us in the power of Yahweh, in the majesty of the Name of the LORD. This is His Elohim, the God! And we will live in peace and security, for His greatness will reach to the ends of the earth. Micah 5:4, also Zechariah 10:12; 12:5.

Therefore, the Son and the Father are united in equality (John 5:18, Philippians 2:6, John 13:31). All these prophecies and signs have been fulfilled and recorded so that we may believe that Jesus is the Christ, the Son of God, and that by believing, we may have life in His Name, the Name of the Father (John 20:31).

And we know that the Son of God has come and has given us understanding so that we may know the True One; and we are in the True One, that is, in His Son Jesus Christ. This is the True God and Eternal Life. 1 John 5:20.

So, Jesus is in the Father, and the Father is in the Son (Matthew 1:23, John 10:38; 14:10-11, 18; and 1 Cor 8:6), and there is one God and Father of all, who is over all and through all and in all. Ephesians 4:6 Pad. G.J. Therefore, this True God is the Father only when the Person of the Son emerges within Him (Hebrews 1:13), and we are only in God when we are in His Son, who, generated within God, transported us to God through His blood. It is not surprising that:

By which He has granted to us His precious and very great promises, so that through them you may become partakers of the divine nature, having escaped from the corruption that is in the world because of sinful desire. Acf 2 Peter 1:4.

We partake of the divine nature of the Father!

NOTE: I am not using the following text as inspired or adulterated; it is not the focus. However, it is certainly a text from the early church, hence its exegetical value: "baptizing them IN the Name of the Father, and of the Son, and of the Holy Spirit" Matthew 28:19. It is not "BY," nor "WITH," but WITHIN the NAME of the FATHER, WITHIN the NAME of the SON, and WITHIN the Name of the Holy Spirit. Therefore, these three have ONE NAME through this early exegesis and agreement with the article.

To understand the force of the use of the preposition εν in John 14:20 and determine if it suggests a full indwelling, we need to consider various arguments, including the analysis of other verses and the provided context.

The verse in question is John 14:20, which says: "In that day you will know that I am in my Father, and you in me, and I in you." (NIV)

**Meaning of the preposition εν + dative in biblical contexts**
The use of the preposition εν + dative in John 14:20 is crucial. This construction is used in a static sense, and the preposition εν is often associated with the idea of a sphere. Analyzing the contexts of other verses, such as 1 Samuel 23:2, 1 Samuel 28:6, and others, reveals the intimacy of consulting God or walking under His sovereignty. This suggests that the preposition εν in John 14:20 also implies a deep connection and relationship. Judges (A) 20:23; Judges (A) 21:7; 1 Samuel 2:1; 1 Samuel 10:22; 1 Samuel 24:22; 1 Samuel 30:6; 2 Samuel 2:1; 2 Samuel 19:8; 1 Kings 1:17; 1 Kings 1:30; 2 Kings 18:5; 2 Chronicles 20:20; 2 Chronicles 26:16; Psalm 20:8; Psalm 32:1; Isaiah 45:25; Hosea 1:7; Habakkuk 3:18; Zechariah 10:12; Zechariah 12:5;

**Correlations with other verses**
The text refers to other verses that emphasize the unity between the Father, the Son, and the disciples. In John 10:15, Jesus speaks of mutual knowledge between him and the Father, which is related to the idea of being "in" each other. Furthermore, John 14:17 mentions the Spirit of Truth dwelling in the disciples, indicating that mutual knowledge is linked to the divine presence. John 1:18, John 14:10-11, and 1 John 2:5; 1 John 2:24; 1 John 4:13; 1 John 4:16

"ginōskein" and "ginōskousin"
The apparent redundancy in the passage concerns the use of the words "know" and "understand" in the context. The phrase in question, "Knowing and understanding" in English, uses two verbs with similar meanings. In the original Greek context, the verbs used are "ginōskein," which is in the aorist form (know), and "ginōskousin," which is in the present form (understand) of the same verb. This choice can be interpreted in two ways: Emphasis: The use of both forms of the verb can emphasize the importance of comprehensive understanding and is not just about having knowledge but also deeply comprehending what is being conveyed.

Saint Basil's Perspective

BOOK OF SAINT BASIL ON THE SPIRIT.
ON THE HOLY SPIRIT.
Nicene and Post-Nicene Fathers: Series II/Volume VIII/On the Holy Spirit/Chapter 18 Philip Schaff et al.

In what manner, in the confession of the three hypostases, we preserve the pious dogma of Monarchy. Where is also the refutation of those who claim that the Spirit is subnumbered.

45. "... And until now we have never heard, not even in the present, of a second God. In worshipping God from God, we confess the distinction of Persons and at the same time remain in the Monarchy. We do not dismember theology into a divided plurality because a Form, as it were, united in the immutability of Divinity, is seen in God the Father and in God the Only-begotten. For the Son is in the Father, and the Father is in the Son; for as this is, so is that, and as that is, so is this; and here is the Unity. Thus, according to the distinction of Persons, both are one and one, and according to the community of Nature, one."

Saint Basil emphasizes the unity of the Trinity and how the presence of each divine Person is inseparable. He asserts that the Son is in the Father, and the Father is in the Son, and this unity is based on the community of nature and the distinction of persons. This supports the idea that the preposition εν in John 14:20 denotes a deep and unbreakable connection that goes beyond mere physical presence.

"In response to the Key Question."
Based on the arguments presented, the use of the preposition εν in John 14:20 suggests an intimate and profound connection between the Father, the Son, and the disciples. This connection goes beyond physical presence and implies a deep spiritual union. The use of εν (+ dative) in this context indeed suggests a "full dwelling," indicating that the divine presence is not just superficial but involves a deep and inseparable spiritual communion between God, Jesus, and believers. Therefore, the strength of the preposition εν in John 14:20 denotes a complete spiritual union.

5
Theology / Re: Can the law grant eternal life?
« on: October 24, 2023, 07:58:36 AM »
This is a poem. Are you really inventing theology from a poem?

"A song that is said about the depths of the waters of the Lord; my heart did not exalt itself, and my eyes did not lift up, and I did not walk in great and wondrous things beyond me. I did not lay my hand on hidden things, and my soul is tranquil until the precepts of the Law are fulfilled. Thus, Israel will lead to the Lord, from now until eternity." -  Targum Ketuvim Tehillim 131

The phrase "Israel will lead to the Lord, from now until eternity" could be interpreted as a poetic expression that suggests that the people of Israel are in a constant spiritual journey toward God and eternity. It is not a direct quotation, but it reflects the aspiration of the Jewish community to follow divine precepts and find their way toward eternity, aligning with the concept of resurrection and the pursuit of eternal life as discussed in Daniel 12:2.


6
Theology / Re: Can the law grant eternal life?
« on: October 23, 2023, 06:27:43 PM »
What does circumcision have to do with anything?

What is your evidence for your statement about the makeup of the ekklesia?  At what point in history?

 Circumcised but I’m not Jewish…. Do I count?

And I will make thy seed to multiply as the stars of heaven, and will give unto thy seed all these countries; and in thy seed shall all the nations of the earth be blessed;  Because that Abraham obeyed my voice, and kept my charge, my commandments, my statutes, and my laws. Genesis 26:4-5 KJV

7
Theology / Re: Can the law grant eternal life?
« on: October 23, 2023, 06:10:19 PM »
Again, the Pentateuch does not mention "eternal life" at all. The laws are kept as part of a covenant between Israel and God.

The concept of eternal life is found in Daniel 12:2, so it would be appropriate for a zealous follower of the Jewish commandments to inquire of Jesus about how to attain eternal life.

Again, no place is "eternal life" promised. And it's not all of Abraham's descendants that are obligated to keep the law as part of a covenant with God. It's only his descendants via his grandson, Jacob.

It is true that the concept of Eternal Life, initially associated with humanity in Genesis 3:22, appears to have been explicitly attributed to God alone, as seen in Deuteronomy 32:40. However, God's precepts remain an essential part of human life, as evidenced in Psalm 118:93.

In Genesis 3:22, the passage relates to the moment when humanity ate from the forbidden fruit, and God expressed concern about the possibility of humans also eating from the "tree of life" and living forever. This initial association with Eternal Life was linked to humans, but the continuation of the biblical narrative indicates that this condition was revoked for humanity.

Deuteronomy 32:40, on the other hand, reaffirms God's absolute control over life and death, emphasizing His sovereignty and authority over eternal destiny. This passage underscores the uniqueness of Eternal Life in relation to God.

However, God's precepts, as mentioned in Psalm 118:93, continue to serve as spiritual and ethical guidelines that steer people's lives. While the ability to live eternally may be exclusive to God, obedience to God's precepts is seen as a path to a life that reflects God's will and draws individuals spiritually closer to the idea of Eternal Life.

So, while Eternal Life may be exclusive to God, obedience to God's precepts remains a crucial aspect of people's lives, connecting them with divine will and guidance.

"Like the dew of Hermon that descends upon the mountains of Zion, for there the Lord has commanded the blessing, life forever." Psalm 132:3


*** The universal assembly (ἐκκλησία καθ᾽ ὅλης - Acts 9:31) throughout Judea was mostly made up of circumcised individuals.

8
Theology / Re: Can the law grant eternal life?
« on: October 23, 2023, 06:43:19 AM »
Can the law grant eternal life?

Kind of a strange question.

The bible's laws are terms of a covenant between God and the Jewish people. No place in the Pentateuch does God promise "eternal life" for following them, or indeed, discuss "eternal life" at all.

And, behold, one came and said unto him, Good Master, what good thing shall I do, that I may have eternal life? And he said unto him, Why callest thou me good? [there is] none good but one, [that is], God: but if thou wilt enter into life, keep the commandments. Mattews 19:16-17  KJV

In this verse, Jesus is responding to someone who inquires about how to attain eternal life. Jesus indicates that the key to eternal life is the observance of God's commandments. Therefore, according to this verse, obedience to the commandments is seen as important in the pursuit of eternal life. However, Jesus offered the option of perfection and reward to the rich young man, while the path with Nicodemus is to "be born again" and enter the Kingdom of God to achieve eternal life, which is the main theme of the Gospels. One does not negate the other. While the first deals with eternal life for the circumcised descendants of Abraham, the other deals with making non-circumcised individuals also children of God.

9
Theology / Re: Can the law grant eternal life?
« on: October 23, 2023, 06:36:54 AM »
The fact that Jesus's instructions to the rich young ruler are not the same as the instructions Christians believe he gives to others is a problem for the Christians. It does not change the fact that Jesus clearly describes a set of instructions for obtaining eternal life to a person who has asked for one.

Those instructions were:
Keep the commandments.
Sell all your possessions.
Give the resultant proceeds to the poor.

Easy to understand? Yes.
Difficult to do? Yes.
Impossible to do? No.

I emphasize that the "cherry on top" is the context of Jesus' encounter with the Rich Young Ruler described in the article. It is true that Jesus also discussed the topic of Eternal Life with another Jew, Nicodemus; however, this encounter was outside the context of the Law. In John 3, Jesus explained about being born again and entering the Kingdom of Heaven to attain Eternal Life. This is not the same path to attaining eternal life through the Law.

Furthermore, the article also mentions the bronze serpent, found in the Old Testament, specifically in the book of Numbers, chapter 21, verses 4-9. It represented a symbol of healing and liberation. The story describes how the Israelites, while in the wilderness, began to complain and murmur against God and Moses due to the hardships they were facing, including being bitten by venomous snakes.

According to the narrative, God instructed Moses to make a bronze serpent and place it on a pole. He told the people that if anyone was bitten by a venomous snake, they could look at the bronze serpent and be healed. Looking at the bronze serpent was an act of faith and obedience to God's instructions, and as a result, healing was granted.

The bronze serpent, therefore, was an object of veneration, a symbol of faith and trust in divine intervention for healing and liberation. In the context of John 3:14-15, Jesus was using this story as an analogy to illustrate that, in the same way, He would be "lifted up" (a reference to His crucifixion), and those who looked to Him in faith would be spiritually healed and receive full and eternal life, just as was done in the time of Moses. Therefore, the bronze serpent in Moses' story was a symbol of healing and salvation.

10
Theology / Re: Can the law grant eternal life?
« on: October 22, 2023, 02:43:44 PM »
John 3 is a great place to learn about eternal life.

Jesus explained about being born again and entering the Kingdom of Heaven to attain Eternal Life. This is not the same path to attaining eternal life through the Law.

11
Theology / Re: Can the law grant eternal life?
« on: October 22, 2023, 02:37:01 PM »
The bronze serpent, mentioned in the Old Testament, specifically in the book of Numbers, chapter 21, verses 4-9, represented a symbol of healing and liberation. The story describes how the Israelites, while in the wilderness, began to complain and murmur against God and Moses due to the difficulties they were facing, including being bitten by venomous snakes.

According to the narrative, God instructed Moses to make a bronze serpent and raise it on a pole. He told the people that if anyone was bitten by a venomous snake, they could look at the bronze serpent and would be healed. The act of looking at the bronze serpent was an act of faith and obedience to God's instructions, and healing was granted as a result.

The bronze serpent, therefore, was an object of veneration, a symbol of faith and trust in divine intervention for healing and liberation. In the context of John 3:14-15, Jesus was using this story as an analogy to illustrate that, in the same way, He would be "lifted up" (a reference to His crucifixion), and those who looked to Him in faith would be spiritually healed and receive full and eternal life, just as it was done in the time of Moses. Therefore, the bronze serpent in Moses' story was a symbol of healing and salvation.

12
Theology / Can the law grant eternal life?
« on: October 21, 2023, 11:37:01 PM »
The question of whether the law can give life is a complex theological issue, and different parts of the Bible seem to present various perspectives on this matter.

1. Ezekiel's Justice: In the Old Testament, particularly in the book of Ezekiel, there are references to justice associated with obedience to God's statutes and the observance of His rules. However, it is essential to recognize that this justice is within the context of the Mosaic Law. Within this framework, justice could be achieved through the fulfillment of the commandments and regulations of the Law. While it can bring a form of justice, it does not necessarily grant eternal life.

2. Transformation of Job: Although Job was initially considered a righteous man in the Old Testament, his story also illustrates a deeper spiritual journey. He was proud of his self-righteousness, thinking that his obedience to the law made him blameless. But as the story unfolds, he comes to understand that justice is not limited to legalistic obedience but involves a deeper relationship with God. His understanding evolves, and he recognizes his limitations. The law, as seen in Job's case, does not grant life in the ultimate sense.

3. Paul's Perspective: The writings of the Apostle Paul are fundamental to understanding the relationship between justice and the law. He argues that, while there is a form of justice found in the law, it is not sufficient for the salvation and eternal life of all. In passages like Philippians 2:15, 3:6, 3:9, and 1 Thessalonians 3:13, Paul discusses the concept of "blamelessness" in the context of the law. He himself was a zealous Pharisee who believed in the righteousness of the law, as he states in Philippians 3:6. However, he recognizes the limitations of the law and that true justice is found in faith in Christ. In Galatians 2:21, he emphasizes that God's grace would be nullified if justice were entirely achievable through the law, implying that the law, while sufficient to lead some to a form of justice, is imperfect when it comes to bringing all of humanity to perfect righteousness and eternal life.

4. Jesus' Encounter with the Rich Young Ruler: The story of the rich young ruler in the Gospels illustrates the idea that mere observance of the law may not be enough for something beyond eternal life. Jesus challenges the rich young ruler to go beyond legalistic observance of the law and to give up his worldly possessions to follow Him and attain, beyond eternal life through obedience to the law's justice, treasure in heaven. This demonstrates that a higher level of commitment is required than merely following the law to achieve a reward. It suggests that the law, while valuable, cannot, by itself, grant life in its fullest sense.

5. New Covenant: The concept of a New Covenant is also crucial for understanding the shift in perspective. Hebrews 8:7 highlights that the first covenant was not without flaws, leading to the need for a new covenant. The New Covenant, according to Christian theology, is based on faith in the atonement of Christ rather than strict adherence to the Mosaic Law. It signifies a shift away from the idea that the law alone can grant life.

Can the law grant eternal life?

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