BibleForums Christian Message Board
Bible Talk => Eschatology => Topic started by: keraz on June 28, 2021, 05:22:51 PM
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Habakkuk 1:5 Look around you among the nations, see there a sight that will utterly astound you, you will not believe it when you are told of what is being done in your days.
Habakkuk 1:6-11 goes on to say how the Babylonians were appointed to execute judgement against the House of Judah, but the preceding verses in Habakkuk 1:1-4 are a general indictment onto peoples and nations whose ‘laws are ineffective and where justice is overruled’. Therefore this threat of action by the Lord applies to our times, as well.
Acts 13:40-41 Beware, then lest you bring down upon yourselves the doom proclaimed by the prophets. Look, you who fail to grasp the truth, be surprised and perish. I am doing a work in your days, something that you will not believe, even though it has been pointed out to you.
This is the parallel passage from the New Testament. Pauls quote, was nothing to do with Jesus and His work on the cross, the message of salvation is not ‘doom’.
It applies to the end times: ‘your days’, not his days, but our days.
The ‘Doom proclaimed by the prophets’, will be the great and terrible Day of the Lord’s vengeance and wrath. All the prophets and Jesus make it clear that this ‘Day of doom’, is the next prophesied event that we can expect to happen. Jesus quoted the first and half of the second verse of Isaiah 61:1-2, at the commencement of His ministry. The worldwide Day of vengeance of our God’, is the next prophesied event, still not yet happened.
It will be the Sixth Seal; a worldwide disaster of similar magnitude as what happened in the days of Noah, which commences all the prophesied end times events, leading up to the glorious Return of Jesus.
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Habakkuk 2:1-3 I will stand on the ramparts and learn what the Lord is saying to us. The Lord says: Write this down and make it clear for all to see; The fulfilment awaits the appointed time, it speaks of the time of the end and will not prove false. Though it delays, wait for it, it will surely come before too long.
Bible prophecy does tell us what will happen ‘at the appointed time’. James 5:7-11
Habakkuk 2:4 The reckless will lack an assured future, while the righteous will live by being faithful.
Those who follow their own lusts and desires will ‘lack an assured future’, that is they may survive the forthcoming fire judgement, but must face the Tribulation. On the other hand, the righteous will live under the care and protection of the Lord. Galatians 3:11
Habakkuk 2:5-7 As for the person who is proud, arrogant and treacherous; they will not win in the end, because they are as greedy as the grave. The nations and peoples follow in this error, but surely they will face ridicule and those who have ill-gotten gains will be scorned. Their debtors will suddenly rise up and the creditors will become victims, instead.
The proud and arrogant people will be brought low. Psalms 5:5-6 While the godless face insecurity, those who discern the times and study the prophetic Word, will maintain their faith and live in quiet trust for a blessed future. Isaiah 30:15
Habakkuk 2:8-19 Those who have shed blood and inflicted violence to cities and have plundered nations, now, the rest of the world will plunder you.
Woe betide those who seek unjust gain, their schemes will bring dishonour and put their lives at risk.
Woe betide those who build their lives on crime and lies. Those nations labour for a pittance and their peoples exhaust themselves for nothing.
Woe betide those who make others drink the outpouring of God’s wrath, they will be filled with shame when it is their turn to face judgement.
Woe to those who seek guidance from idols or divinators, they are useless and of no value. Reference: REB, NIV. Some verses abridged.
The ‘cup of God’s wrath’, is symbolic of His anger. Jeremiah 25:15-29 It will be poured out upon all of the people mentioned in Isaiah 2:12-21, Isaiah 13:9-15, Rev. 6:12-17, on the Great and terrible Day of the Lord’s vengeance and wrath, a judgement of fire, that will affect all the world. Huge numbers will be killed, Jeremiah 9:22, Isaiah 66:15-17 and the survivors will slowly recover, then form a One World government.
Meanwhile, those who have kept their faith and trust in the Lord, will be motivated to emigrate to the Holy Land, where they will settle and live peace and prosperity. Amos 9:13-15, Isaiah 35
Habakkuk 2:20 The Lord is in His Holy Temple, let all the earth be silent in His presence. Psalms 11:4-6
The Shekinah Glory will return to the new Temple, in Jerusalem. Ezekiel 43:1-6 Then, some years later, Jesus Returns to reign for 1000 years.
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Habakkuk tells us who God will raise up in the last days and that would be the Chaldeans/Babylonians. AKA today's Arabs and Muslims.
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Habakkuk tells us who God will raise up in the last days and that would be the Chaldeans/Babylonians. AKA today's Arabs and Muslims.
They are the ones He will destroy. Ezekiel 30:1-5, Amos 1 & 2:1-5, Jeremiah 49:1-5 & 35-37, Isaiah 17:1, +
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Habakkuk tells us who God will raise up in the last days and that would be the Chaldeans/Babylonians. AKA today's Arabs and Muslims.
They are the ones He will destroy. Ezekiel 30:1-5, Amos 1 & 2:1-5, Jeremiah 49:1-5 & 35-37, Isaiah 17:1, +
And the ones he will raise up to bring Israel to repentance.
Behold ye among the heathen, and regard, and wonder marvellously: for I will work a work in your days, which ye will not believe, though it be told you.
For, lo, I raise up the Chaldeans, that bitter and hasty nation, which shall march through the breadth of the land, to possess the dwellingplaces that are not theirs.
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Habakkuk tells us who God will raise up in the last days and that would be the Chaldeans/Babylonians. AKA today's Arabs and Muslims.
They are the ones He will destroy. Ezekiel 30:1-5, Amos 1 & 2:1-5, Jeremiah 49:1-5 & 35-37, Isaiah 17:1, +
And the ones he will raise up to bring Israel to repentance.
Behold ye among the heathen, and regard, and wonder marvellously: for I will work a work in your days, which ye will not believe, though it be told you.
For, lo, I raise up the Chaldeans, that bitter and hasty nation, which shall march through the breadth of the land, to possess the dwellingplaces that are not theirs.
That did happen, in 586 BC and the Jews were taken into captivity by the Babylonians.
Bible prophecy is clear, the Day is coming when the Lord Himself will Judge and punish Judah. Amos 2:4-5
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Habakkuk 3:1-19 Lord God, I know Your fame, I am in awe of what You have done. You make Yourself known and in your wrath You do not forget mercy. God comes from Paran, His splendor covers the sky and earth. As bright as the dawn, rays of light flash from His hand and thereby His might is veiled. Plague and pestilence go before and after Him. The earth shakes and nations panic. The mountains are broken and flattened. The dwellings of Cushan and Midian are destroyed.
What is the cause of Your anger, O God? You arm Your weapons and the earth and sea shake with fear. The sun and moon stand still. Furiously You traverse the earth, and trample the nations. You come to deliver Your people and save Your anointed ones. You shatter the house of the wicked, laying bare its foundations. With his own weapon You kill their leaders and warriors, swept away by a whirlwind, as they prepare to attack. I tremble at Your advance, but I long for the Day of calamity to come upon our enemies. Although the fig tree has not yet budded and the grape vine bears no fruit and the Land does not prosper, even so, I shall exult in the Lord. God Almighty is my strength, He makes me sure footed and confident. Nahum 1:15 Ref: Revised English Bible. Some verses abridged.
Chapter three of the Book of Habakkuk, describes how the Lord will act to punish His enemies and protect His people. Written in the present tense for the surety of its fulfilment.
‘as they are about to devour their victims – prepare to attack’. Verse 14 is an interesting description of the method and timing of the Lord’s Day of vengeance. “swept away by a whirlwind” and with ‘arrows of light flashing’. This can only describe a Coronal Mass Ejection, a sunstrike, which will occur at the exact moment that His enemies commence their attack. Confirmed by Deuteronomy 32:31-35...My reserve of punishment, stored up for My Day of vengeance, till the moment that their foot slips, [make a mistake] for their doom is fast approaching. And Isaiah 30:26…the sun will shine with seven times its normal strength.. Malachi 4:1+3, 2 Peter 3:7
‘as bright as the dawn’…Joel 2:2…like the dawn spreading across the mountains… As the earth rotates and nations face the sun, they will be struck with the fire and devastation described in Joel 2:1-11 and detailed in over 100 other prophesies. Jeremiah 25:32
‘With his own weapons, You kill the enemy, as they prepare to attack’. This will literally happen if a CME strikes an armed nuke missile and the microwave penetration will explode ammunition and rockets stored underground. Deut. 32:22, Jer. 49:35, Haggai 2:21-22, Hosea 2:8, Psalm 37:15
Note that: “His might is veiled” The Lord will not be seen at this time. Psalms 18:7-19, Romans 1:18
‘Furiously, You trample the nations’. This will be the fulfilment of Isaiah 63:1-6, Isaiah 2:12-21, Zechariah 2:13, Zech. 14:13-15, Malachi 4:1, Hebrews 10:27, Rev. 6:12-17.
‘The dwellings of Cushan and Midian are destroyed’. Cushan and Midian: North Africa and Arabia. Ezekiel 30:1-5, Zephaniah 2:5&12, Isaiah 19:1-10
Punishment, trampling, fierce fire, etc. This cannot be construed as the same event as the Return of Jesus., described quite differently in Matthew 24:30, Rev. 19:11-13
But, this is also the Day of deliverance for His people: ‘The Lord does not forget mercy and saves His anointed people’. We look forward with great anticipation to the great Day of the Lord’s vengeance and wrath, when He will fulfill His promises to His people. 1 Corinthians 2:9
Judah ‘the fig tree’, the Jewish people, does not yet acknowledge the Messiah, and Israel ‘the vine’, every faithful Christian person: still await their true destiny. When these happen, the Land and His people will prosper. Ezekiel 34:11-16, Joel 2:21-24, Amos 9:13-15
That will be the wonderful time when the Lords righteous people gather and live together in peace in New Israel. Ezekiel 39:25-29, Isaiah 62:1-5, Isa 40:1-3, Jer. 3:14, Micah 2:12, Zech. 8:7, Psalms 68:7-10. They will proclaim the coming Kingdom of Jesus. Isaiah 49:6, Isaiah 66:19, Revelation 7:1-9
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The worldwide Day of vengeance of our God’, is the next prophesied event, still not yet happened.
It will be the Sixth Seal;
We are now entering the third seal --
Rev 6:5 And when he had opened the third seal, I heard the third beast say, Come and see. And I beheld, and lo a black horse; and he that sat on him had a pair of balances in his hand.
Rev 6:6 And I heard a voice in the midst of the four beasts say, A measure of wheat for a penny, and three measures of barley for a penny; and see thou hurt not the oil and the wine.
which leads to----
Rev 6:7 And when he had opened the fourth seal, I heard the voice of the fourth beast say, Come and see.
Rev 6:8 And I looked, and behold a pale horse: and his name that sat on him was Death, and Hell followed with him. And power was given unto them over the fourth part of the earth, to kill with sword, and with hunger, and with death, and with the beasts of the earth.
Rev 6:9 And when he had opened the fifth seal, I saw under the altar the souls of them that were slain for the word of God, and for the testimony which they held:
Rev 6:10 And they cried with a loud voice, saying, How long, O Lord, holy and true, dost thou not judge and avenge our blood on them that dwell on the earth?
Rev 6:11 And white robes were given unto every one of them; and it was said unto them, that they should rest yet for a little season, until their fellowservants also and their brethren, that should be killed as they were, should be fulfilled.
Col
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Yes, we are really entering the third seal. The question is to identify who is the blackhorse rider, and the first two horses riders which are already making their works within the current devilish world: the MAN whitehorse rider and the MAN redhorse rider.
In my understand, the MAN palehorse rider is the Beast of earth-Revelation 13:v.11-18 and John 5:v.43-47 and 2 Thes.2:v.4-12: his name that sat on him was Death, and Hell followed with him. And power was given unto them over the fourth part of the earth, to kill with sword,and with hunger, and with death, and with the beasts of the earth-mainly the Beast of sea-Rev.13:v.1-9.
Also, in my understanding, one of the four horsesriders is of the LORD-Revelation 11:v.15-18, the others three are of Devil. I agree with you the MAN blackhorse rider will appear in the scenario from now on, but who would be him? Who is this MAN in the current time?
We need of revelations with the help of the Holy Spirit, the days are EVIL.
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Hi Oseas,
The horses are denoting the main spirit [force behind] of each age which extends over the world in particular in reference to Babylon.
Babylon of the book of Daniel and its end, and the bringing in of the dominion of the Kingdom of God to rule the world is the main theme of the book of Revelation.
The seals cover all the things which are described after the seals in the book including the trumpets with only the vials beginning after the return of Christ in the sixth seal...
It is important to know that the trumpets occur before Christ returns at the 7th trumpet.
and that the 7 vials only take 30 days to pour out, only beginning at His return after a short silence.
Dan.12 and Rev.ch 10
Col
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Greetings in Christ JESUS, Col
Yes, I agree "The horses are denoting the main spirit [force behind]"according the sixth trumpet - Revelation 9:
v.17 And thus I saw the horses in the vision, and them that sat on them, having breastplates of fire, and of jacinth, and brimstone: and the heads of the horses were as the heads of lions; and out of their MOUTHS issued fire and smoke and brimstone.
v.18 By these three plagues was the third part of men killed, by the fire, and by the smoke, and by the brimstone, which issued out of their MOUTHS.
v.19 For their power is in their MOUTH, and in their TAILS: for their TAILS were like unto serpents, and had heads, and with them they do hurt. (hurt them which worship demons, and idols as follow)
v.20 And the rest of the men which were not killed by these plagues yet repented not of the works of their hands, that they should not worship devils, and idols of gold, and silver, and brass, and stone, and of wood: which neither can see, nor hear, nor walk:
v.21 Neither repented they of their murders, nor of their sorceries, nor of their fornication, nor of their thefts. (these are all sons of Devil)
Revelation 9:v.13-16 -Where the command voice came from:
v.13 And the sixth angel sounded, and I heard a voice from the four horns of the golden altar which is before God,
v.14 Saying to the sixth angel which had the trumpet, Loose the four angels which are bound in the great river Euphrates. (Compare with Rev.16:v.12- 12 And the sixth angel poured out his vial upon the great river Euphrates; and the water thereof was dried up, that the way of the kings of the East might be prepared.)
v.15 And the four angels were loosed, which were prepared for an hour, and a day, and a month, and a year, for to slay the third part of men.
v.16 And the number of the army of the horsemen were two hundred thousand thousand: and I heard the number of them.
May our Lord GOD bless us, and give us His protection
Amen
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Hi, I do not connect the horses of rev.6 with those of rev.9 as you have.
Col.
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OK, I only wanted to highlight that "The horses are (really) denoting the main spirit [force behind]", because the power of the horses is in their MOUTH, and their speech is their spirit.
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The worldwide Day of vengeance of our God’, is the next prophesied event, still not yet happened.
It will be the Sixth Seal;
We are now entering the third seal --
Rev 6:5 And when he had opened the third seal, I heard the third beast say, Come and see. And I beheld, and lo a black horse; and he that sat on him had a pair of balances in his hand.
Rev 6:6 And I heard a voice in the midst of the four beasts say, A measure of wheat for a penny, and three measures of barley for a penny; and see thou hurt not the oil and the wine.
which leads to----
Rev 6:7 And when he had opened the fourth seal, I heard the voice of the fourth beast say, Come and see.
Rev 6:8 And I looked, and behold a pale horse: and his name that sat on him was Death, and Hell followed with him. And power was given unto them over the fourth part of the earth, to kill with sword, and with hunger, and with death, and with the beasts of the earth.
Rev 6:9 And when he had opened the fifth seal, I saw under the altar the souls of them that were slain for the word of God, and for the testimony which they held:
Rev 6:10 And they cried with a loud voice, saying, How long, O Lord, holy and true, dost thou not judge and avenge our blood on them that dwell on the earth?
Rev 6:11 And white robes were given unto every one of them; and it was said unto them, that they should rest yet for a little season, until their fellowservants also and their brethren, that should be killed as they were, should be fulfilled.
Col
none of the seals have been opened yet. the first four seals represent the four beasts of dan 7 rev 13 is a seprate account of the 4th beast
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Bible prophecy is clear, the Day is coming when the Lord Himself will Judge and punish Judah. Amos 2:4-5
This already happened 2500 years ago.
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Bible prophecy is clear, the Day is coming when the Lord Himself will Judge and punish Judah. Amos 2:4-5
This already happened 2500 years ago.
I concur.
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Bible prophecy is clear, the Day is coming when the Lord Himself will Judge and punish Judah. Amos 2:4-5
This already happened 2500 years ago.
I concur.
Daniel was captive in Babylon. And after GOD revealed to Daniel what would be after that event.
As was said above in the year 586 B.C. - Judah was conquered by Babylon - Jerusalem and First Temple destroyed; most Jews are exiled. Later, Babylon was conquered by Cyrus-550-539 B.C..and Cambises 530-522 B.C.,and Darius-522-486 B.C.
Captivity of Israel - 70 years ---> 586 B.C.- 70 = 516 B.C.
Esra 6:v.15CJB reveals : - 15 This house was finished on the third day of the month Adar, in the sixth year of the reign of Daryavesh(Darius) the king. (Darius reigned from year 522-486 B.C.) 522-6(end of the rebuild of the temple) = 516 B.C.
After the rebuild of the temple of Jerusalem, GOD revealed to Daniel, as follow:
Daniel 9:v.24KJV says: 24 Seventy weeks are determined upon thy people and upon thy holy city:
to finish the transgression,
and to make an end of sins,
and to make reconciliation for iniquity,
and to bring in everlasting righteousness,
and to seal up the vision and prophecy,
and to anoint the most Holy.
25 Know therefore and understand, that from the going forth of the commandment to restore and to build Jerusalem unto the Messiah the Prince shall be seven weeks, and threescore and two weeks: the street shall be built again, and the wall, even in troublous times.
26 And AFTER threescore and two weeks shall Messiah be cut off, but not for himself:
AGAIN: Year 586 B.C. - Judah was conquered by Babylon - Jerusalem and First Temple destroyed; most Jews are exiled.
Captivity of Israel -> 70 years ---> 586 B.C.- 70 = 516 B.C.
The Temple was finished on the third day of the month Adar, in the sixth year of the reign of Daryavesh(Darius) the king; Darius reigned from year 522-486 B.C.
522-6 (end of the rebuild of the temple, and also of the captivity) = 516 B.C.
The Lord revealed to Daniel:
Seventy weeks are determined upon thy people...Know therefore and understand, that from the going forth of the commandment to restore and to build Jerusalem,
unto the Messiah the Prince shall be seven weeks,
and threescore and two weeks:
And after threescore and two weeks shall Messiah be cut off (and have nothing).
Until the week 69th the prophecy already fulfilled LITERALLY
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Captivity of Israel - 70 years ---> 586 B.C.- 70 = 516 B.C.
My comment was about Amos 2 and not Daniel. So I don't know why you're bringing this up . Anyway-
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Daniel 9:v.24KJV says: 24 Seventy weeks are determined upon thy people and upon thy holy city:
to finish the transgression,
and to make an end of sins,
and to make reconciliation for iniquity,
and to bring in everlasting righteousness,
and to seal up the vision and prophecy,
and to anoint the most Holy.
25 Know therefore and understand, that from the going forth of the commandment to restore and to build Jerusalem unto the Messiah the Prince shall be seven weeks, and threescore and two weeks: the street shall be built again, and the wall, even in troublous times.
You're mangling the Hebrew here. Actually what you're saying doesn't make sense in any language. You don't count to 69 by saying "7 plus 62". What the text actually says is "...from the emergence of the word to restore and to rebuild Jerusalem... will be seven weeks, and for sixty-two weeks it will return and be built street and moat, but in troubled times"
There's that all important comma that separates the two parts of the verse as is completely logical. So our timeframe becomes thus: Daniel is exiled, and told that from his present time until the word to rebuild will be 7 "weeks" (49 years) (which is when Cyrus gives the word to rebuild Jerusalem in 538BC). From then, the city will be rebuilt for 62 weeks (434 years) "in troubled times" (which it was, since it was a client state for various empires that entire time. The end of that period coincides with the year 104BC (=538-434) which is when the last independent Jewish king ascends the throne in Judea, Alexander Yannai (Jannaeus).
And AFTER threescore and two weeks shall Messiah be cut off, but not for himself:
You've mistranslated two words in this verse. First of all, the Hebrew word "Messiah" simply means "anointed." It's a poetic way of saying "king", as all kings were anointed upon ascending the throne at that time. For example in Isaiah 45, the text refers to Cyrus as "God's anointed". You can't take the word and translate it as "messiah" just because you like the connotation in some verse. Secondly, it doesn't say the anointed will be "cut off, but not for himself". It says "cut off, and be no more". This is basic Hebrew. Also be aware that the term "cut off" (in Hebrew, "Karet") almost always means spiritual excision, a punishment for very bad people. And by all accounts Alexander Yannai was a bad person.
Using the timeframe above, the verse becomes a warning and not a messianic prophecy. God is telling Daniel that the Jews have 490 years to shape up, because when Alexander Yannai, the "anointed" dies, the end of Jerusalem is a foregone conclusion. When he died, his wife held the throne and then passed it on to his two children, Hyrcanus and Aristobulus II. They could not agree on who would rule and so invited the Roman army in nearby Syria to decide. After that Judea was never free again, as the Roman legions never left.
Another way to look at things.
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Captivity of Israel - 70 years ---> 586 B.C.- 70 = 516 B.C.
My comment was about Amos 2 and not Daniel. So I don't know why you're bringing this up . Anyway-
snip
Daniel 9:v.24KJV says: 24 Seventy weeks are determined upon thy people and upon thy holy city:
to finish the transgression,
and to make an end of sins,
and to make reconciliation for iniquity,
and to bring in everlasting righteousness,
and to seal up the vision and prophecy,
and to anoint the most Holy.
25 Know therefore and understand, that from the going forth of the commandment to restore and to build Jerusalem unto the Messiah the Prince shall be seven weeks, and threescore and two weeks: the street shall be built again, and the wall, even in troublous times.
You're mangling the Hebrew here. Actually what you're saying doesn't make sense in any language. You don't count to 69 by saying "7 plus 62". What the text actually says is "...from the emergence of the word to restore and to rebuild Jerusalem... will be seven weeks, and for sixty-two weeks it will return and be built street and moat, but in troubled times"
There's that all important comma that separates the two parts of the verse as is completely logical. So our timeframe becomes thus: Daniel is exiled, and told that from his present time until the word to rebuild will be 7 "weeks" (49 years) (which is when Cyrus gives the word to rebuild Jerusalem in 538BC). From then, the city will be rebuilt for 62 weeks (434 years) "in troubled times" (which it was, since it was a client state for various empires that entire time. The end of that period coincides with the year 104BC (=538-434) which is when the last independent Jewish king ascends the throne in Judea, Alexander Yannai (Jannaeus).
And AFTER threescore and two weeks shall Messiah be cut off, but not for himself:
You've mistranslated two words in this verse. First of all, the Hebrew word "Messiah" simply means "anointed." It's a poetic way of saying "king", as all kings were anointed upon ascending the throne at that time. For example in Isaiah 45, the text refers to Cyrus as "God's anointed". You can't take the word and translate it as "messiah" just because you like the connotation in some verse. Secondly, it doesn't say the anointed will be "cut off, but not for himself". It says "cut off, and be no more". This is basic Hebrew. Also be aware that the term "cut off" (in Hebrew, "Karet") almost always means spiritual excision, a punishment for very bad people. And by all accounts Alexander Yannai was a bad person.
Using the timeframe above, the verse becomes a warning and not a messianic prophecy. God is telling Daniel that the Jews have 490 years to shape up, because when Alexander Yannai, the "anointed" dies, the end of Jerusalem is a foregone conclusion. When he died, his wife held the throne and then passed it on to his two children, Hyrcanus and Aristobulus II. They could not agree on who would rule and so invited the Roman army in nearby Syria to decide. After that Judea was never free again, as the Roman legions never left.
Another way to look at things.
In my post I commented until week 69th, and I highlighted that what was prophesied by Daniel LITERALLY fulfilled itself, which you commented giving two interpretations, it because is more linked with things written by storytellers, not by the Word of God. This shows us that we need to find the true interpretation which is the only interpretation that interests us, course. Which would be? Including the 70th week.
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In my post I commented until week 69th, and I highlighted that what was prophesied by Daniel LITERALLY fulfilled itself, which you commented giving two interpretations, it because is more linked with things written by storytellers, not by the Word of God. This shows us that we need to find the true interpretation which is the only interpretation that interests us, course. Which would be? Including the 70th week.
Um, I don't understand what you're saying here or how it pertains to what I said.
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There’s a lot of that going around..
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In my post I commented until week 69th, and I highlighted that what was prophesied by Daniel LITERALLY fulfilled itself, which you commented giving two interpretations, it because is more linked with things written by storytellers, not by the Word of God. This shows us that we need to find the true interpretation which is the only interpretation that interests us, course. Which would be? Including the 70th week.
Um, I don't understand what you're saying here or how it pertains to what I said.
What I meant is that you give two interpretations, but the Truth is only one, and it is this one we need to search and find, the true interpretation according Daniel 9:v.24 to 27, as follow:
24 Seventy weeks are determined upon thy people and upon thy holy city, to finish the transgression, and to make an end of sins, and to make reconciliation for iniquity, and to bring in everlasting righteousness, and to seal up the vision and prophecy, and to anoint the most Holy.
25 Know therefore and understand, that from the going forth of the commandment to restore and to build Jerusalem unto the Messiah the Prince shall be seven weeks, and threescore and two weeks: the street shall be built again, and the wall, even in troublous times.
26 And after threescore and two weeks shall Messiah be cut off, but not for himself: and the people of the prince that shall come shall destroy the city and the sanctuary; and the end thereof shall be with a flood, and unto the end of the war desolations are determined.
27 And he shall confirm the covenant with many for one week: and in the midst of the week he shall cause the sacrifice and the oblation to cease, and for the overspreading of abominations he shall make it desolate, even until the consummation, and that determined shall be poured upon the desolate.
Babylon entered in Israel in 586B.C, and destroyed Jerusalem include the Temple that was built by Solomon.
Captivity ended in 516 BC, after 70 years.
Ho many years can we count by the expression of times to past cited as 7 weeks and 62 weeks. How many years can here be counted?
There’s a lot of that going around..
I agree. What is not true I would say it be tares.
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What I meant is that you give two interpretations
I am actually reading the chapter from the original Hebrew.
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What I meant is that you give two interpretations
I am actually reading the chapter from the original Hebrew.
Still better. Ho many years can we count by the expression of times to past cited as 7 weeks and 62 weeks. How many years can here be counted?
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Still better. Ho many years can we count by the expression of times to past cited as 7 weeks and 62 weeks. How many years can here be counted?
"...from the emergence of the word to restore and to rebuild Jerusalem until the anointed king will be seven weeks, and for sixty-two weeks it will return and be built street and moat, but in troubled times"
See?
When you're talking to someone and you want to say the number 69, you say "69." You don't say "7+62". They're different parts of the sentence. Separated in English by a comma, and in Hebrew by cantillation marks (that actually form something like a semicolon) .
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Still better. Ho many years can we count by the expression of times to past cited as 7 weeks and 62 weeks. How many years can here be counted?
"...from the emergence of the word to restore and to rebuild Jerusalem until the anointed king will be seven weeks, and for sixty-two weeks it will return and be built street and moat, but in troubled times"
See?
When you're talking to someone and you want to say the number 69, you say "69." You don't say "7+62". They're different parts of the sentence. Separated in English by a comma, and in Hebrew by cantillation marks (that actually form something like a semicolon) .
How many years does 70 weeks correspond to?
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How many years does 70 weeks correspond to?
490, beginning with Daniel's revelation in 586BC.
"...from the emergence of the word to restore and to rebuild Jerusalem until the anointed king will be seven weeks, and for sixty-two weeks it will return and be built street and moat, but in troubled times"
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How many years does 70 weeks correspond to?
490, beginning with Daniel's revelation in 586BC.
"...from the emergence of the word to restore and to rebuild Jerusalem until the anointed king will be seven weeks, and for sixty-two weeks it will return and be built street and moat, but in troubled times"
Daniel 9:v.24KJV: - GOD revealed to Daniel that 70 weeks (490 years) was determined upon His people, and upon the holy city for finishing :
(1) the transgression -
(2) to make an end of sins,
(3) to make reconciliation for iniquity,
(4) to bring in everlasting righteousness,
(5) to seal up the vision and prophecy,
(6) to anoint the most Holy.
By whom would GOD the Father perform these works listed above?
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Daniel 9:v.24KJV: - GOD revealed to Daniel that 70 weeks (490 years) was determined upon His people, and upon the holy city for finishing :
(1) the transgression -
(2) to make an end of sins,
(3) to make reconciliation for iniquity,
(4) to bring in everlasting righteousness,
(5) to seal up the vision and prophecy,
(6) to anoint the most Holy.
As I've already said (sigh), this could be a warning instead of a prophecy. From the year of Daniel's vision, they have 490 years to set things right. By 104 BC, Alexander Yannai will ascend the throne and things completely fall apart; the Romans end up occupying Judea, leading to the Jewish revolt, the destruction of the temple and a 2,000 year Jewish diaspora. This isn't speculation, it's historical fact.
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That interpretation would be consistent with either a preterist or partial preterist view from a Christian perspective as well.
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That interpretation would be consistent with either a preterist or partial preterist view from a Christian perspective as well.
I don't believe that all the prophecies have already occurred. But some clearly have. Those pertaining to the temple's destruction, obviously. I would posit Daniel 9 as well. Some have yet to occur, like Ezekiel 37, or the entire last third of the book of Isaiah.
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As I've already said (sigh), this could be a warning instead of a prophecy. From the year of Daniel's vision, they have 490 years to set things right. By 104 BC, Alexander Yannai will ascend the throne and things completely fall apart; the Romans end up occupying Judea, leading to the Jewish revolt, the destruction of the temple and a 2,000 year Jewish diaspora. This isn't speculation, it's historical fact.
Daniel 9:v.21-25KJV
21 Yea, whiles I was speaking in prayer, even the man Gabriel, whom I had seen in the vision at the beginning, being caused to fly swiftly, touched me about the time of the evening oblation. And he INFORMED me, and talked with me, and said; 23 At the beginning of thy supplications the commandment came forth, and I am come to shew thee; for thou art greatly beloved: therefore understand the matter, and consider the vision.
Daniel 9:v.24KJV: - GOD revealed to Daniel that 70 weeks (490 years) was determined upon His people, and upon the holy city for finishing :
(1) the transgression -
(2) to make an end of sins,
(3) to make reconciliation for iniquity,
(4) to bring in everlasting righteousness,
(5) to seal up the vision and prophecy,
(6) to anoint the most Holy.
25 Know therefore and understand, that from the going forth of the commandment to restore and to build Jerusalem unto the Messiah the Prince shall be seven weeks, and threescore and two weeks:
Alexander Yannai is your messiah?
He finished
(1) the transgression?
(2) makes an end of sins,?
(3) makes reconciliation for iniquity,?
(4) brings in everlasting righteousness,?
(5) to seal up the vision and PROPHECY,?
(6) to anoint the most Holy.?
Who is being the deceiver, Gabriel or you?
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Daniel 9:v.24KJV: - GOD revealed to Daniel that 70 weeks (490 years) was determined upon His people, and upon the holy city for finishing :
Ok, so again. This isn't necessarily a prophecy. It could be a warning. "You guys have 490 years to get things straightened out or else..."
Alexander Yannai is your messiah?
OK, so again. The word means "messiah" simply means "anointed". It's a poetic way of saying "king" as all kings at that time were anointed upon ascending the throne. Cyrus in Isaiah 45 is also referred to as "anointed", why isn't he "the messiah"? You're refusing to translate the word because you like the implications of the word here. But it's also being dishonest.
He finished
The "anointed" isn't supposed to finish anything. It's a timeframe. By the time this "anointed king" ascends the throne, if the Jewish people haven't settled these matters, they will be out of time. As historically happened.
Who is being the deceiver, Gabriel or you?
Who's mistranslating words because they like the theological implications, you or me?
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Is it possible that we are at the very end of time, that is in Revelation 16 where God is pouring out the 6th vial upon the face of the earth.
America who represents Babylon is broken and is ready to fall, and as soon as Babylon falls the end will be upon us.
America rules the world and is Babylon and God is raining down punishment on her and also on the rest of the world. But the fall of Babylon is the sign post that will tell us that we are there.
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Who is being the deceiver, Gabriel or you?
If you want to continue contributing you'll not say such things going forward.
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Is it possible that we are at the very end of time
I think that's a good possibility. Of course, people have said that and been wrong before so who knows.
America rules the world and is Babylon and God is raining down punishment on her
I think this is an odd comment. America is probably the best and most moral nation the world has ever seen (barring perhaps Israel under king David and Solomon?) Why would America need to be "punished"? Everyone else is so moral?
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I think this is an odd comment. America is probably the best and most moral nation the world has ever seen (barring perhaps Israel under king David and Solomon?) Why would America need to be "punished"? Everyone else is so moral?
America has abandoned God, obviously, or why else would there be all those men who think they're women running around. (Sarcasm, clearly.)
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Is it possible that we are at the very end of time
I think that's a good possibility. Of course, people have said that and been wrong before so who knows.
America rules the world and is Babylon and God is raining down punishment on her
I think this is an odd comment. America is probably the best and most moral nation the world has ever seen (barring perhaps Israel under king David and Solomon?) Why would America need to be "punished"? Everyone else is so moral?
That is the impression that is promulgated throughout the entire world. And the book of Revelations states the the whole world will be deceived.
Deception does not come with 2 horns and a tail etc etc etc, but rather as an angel of light.
As you know America is not just a great country in it's own right, but for many decades America has ruled the entire world, exporting it's customs, it's ideology and everything else to the rest of the world, which really are it's satellites.
It has only been in recent years that it is now being challenged seriously by other countries in the east, namely China and Russia.
Homosexuality, probably the greatest sin in the bible, it's main proponent is the United States, who proposes that all other countries who do not agree with and promote homosexuality are abusing human rights and abusing mankind.
I am not here to promote or excuse any country in the world, because as Christians of the last days, we are in the world but not of the world, and as such do not participate in the things of the world including politics, because they are not our business.
Our only business is the kingdom of God because the things of the world will all be destroyed by God and the only thing left standing will be the kingdom of God.
We walk by faith and not by sight and thus we can certainly be tricked if we try to use our man-made intelligence in discerning the things that we see (with our natural eyes) going on in the world. A great delusion will come upon Christians in these last days, causing a falling away from the truth.
Truly the truth shall be called a lie and a lie will be called the truth. Truly the kingdom of Satan is upon us all who cannot discern the truth from a lie.
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Who is being the deceiver, Gabriel or you?
If you want to continue contributing you'll not say such things going forward.
Revelation 22:v.11-15and 18
18 For I testify unto every MAN that heareth the words of the prophecy of this book, If any man shall add unto these things, GOD shall add unto him the plagues that are written in this book:
Get ready
11 He that is unjust, let him be unjust still: and he which is filthy, let him be filthy still: (it won't be clean, no, never more) and he that is righteous, let him be righteous still: and he that is holy, let him be holy still.
12 Behold, I come quickly; and my reward is with me, to give every man according as his work shall be.
15 For without are dogs, and sorcerers, and whoremongers, and murderers, and idolaters, and whosoever loveth and MAKETH A LIE.
Matthew 25:v.10-12
10 And they that were ready went in with Him to the marriage: and the door was shut.
11 Afterward came also the other virgins, saying, Lord, Lord, open to us.
12 But he answered and said, Verily I say unto you, I know you not.
Who to the right, to the right, who to the left, to the left.
Get ready
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I have no idea why that is posted or what I’m supposed to think about it
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That is the impression that is promulgated throughout the entire world. And the book of Revelations states the the whole world will be deceived.
Deception does not come with 2 horns and a tail etc etc etc, but rather as an angel of light.
As you know America is not just a great country in it's own right, but for many decades America has ruled the entire world, exporting it's customs, it's ideology and everything else to the rest of the world, which really are it's satellites.
It has only been in recent years that it is now being challenged seriously by other countries in the east, namely China and Russia.
Homosexuality, probably the greatest sin in the bible, it's main proponent is the United States, who proposes that all other countries who do not agree with and promote homosexuality are abusing human rights and abusing mankind.
I am not here to promote or excuse any country in the world, because as Christians of the last days, we are in the world but not of the world, and as such do not participate in the things of the world including politics, because they are not our business.
Our only business is the kingdom of God because the things of the world will all be destroyed by God and the only thing left standing will be the kingdom of God.
We walk by faith and not by sight and thus we can certainly be tricked if we try to use our man-made intelligence in discerning the things that we see (with our natural eyes) going on in the world. A great delusion will come upon Christians in these last days, causing a falling away from the truth.
Truly the truth shall be called a lie and a lie will be called the truth. Truly the kingdom of Satan is upon us all who cannot discern the truth from a lie.
A wise Bible teacher of mine many years ago told us that one of the marks of a true prophet of God is that when he speaks of judgment, he *weeps.* That is, he thinks of the innocents in a country where wicked people live and rule. Judgment will affect everybody, guilty and innocent alike.
The U.S., I agree, is guilty of immorality and colonialist kinds of activities, using its military might to preserve its favored economic and trade status. Our foreign policy has not just been guided by the interest of promoting democratic principles, but also with a mind to maintain its economic wealth and military supremacy.
That being said, the U.S. is far from the most "adventurous" country in the world, and certainly has had greater principles of justice and compassion than many countries in the world. And it certainly isn't' in political control over all of the countries of the world, even though it has been the dominant superpower for a number of years.
It really sounds like you just want to peg the "Harlot Babylon" label on her, and then make the designation fit? Quite frankly, I think that is an errant interpretation, leaving aside the fact the peg doesn't fit the hole.
Keep in mind that many, many good Christians and good people of other religions live in the U.S., and are insulted by your broad application. Try to focus on those in the U.S. who are pushing evil agendas, and don't group all peoples in the U.S. as one?
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The heavens(the FIRST two heavens, the 3rd heaven is the next. Heaven(s) has nothing to do with sky) and the earth, which ARE NOW, by the same Word -Word of GOD- are kept in store, reserved unto fire against the day of judgment and perdition of ungodly men.
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Homosexuality, probably the greatest sin in the bible, it's main proponent is the United States, who proposes that all other countries who do not agree with and promote homosexuality are abusing human rights and abusing mankind.
Oh man, Fenris, look, I nailed it.
Pablo, the countries of the world are not America's satellites (well, there is that one Rammstein song). Homosexuality isn't the greatest sin in the bible.
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That is the impression that is promulgated throughout the entire world.
You mean as opposed to China, where they use slave labor, or North Korea, where the whole country is a giant concentration camp? Or maybe Iran, where they stone women who were the victims of rape?
I don't think you know what's going on in the world at all. If you did, why would you ignore those most grievous sins and instead concentrate on America, the greatest force for good in the world right now?
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Oh man, Fenris, look, I nailed it.
Sweet! I think this solidifies your bona fides as a prophet!
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The U.S., I agree, is guilty of immorality and colonialist kinds of activities
As compared to who? Where are these countries of morality that's white as the driven snow? We live in the real world where sometimes even a good country is confronted with only bad choices. Given that backdrop, the United States is one of the most moral countries that has ever existed in all of human history.
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Homosexuality, probably the greatest sin in the bible, it's main proponent is the United States, who proposes that all other countries who do not agree with and promote homosexuality are abusing human rights and abusing mankind.
The United States does not "promote" homosexuality any more than God does. The government simply allows people to make that choice, just as God does. Or does God giving us free will mean that He "promotes" behavior forbidden in the bible?
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Oh man, Fenris, look, I nailed it.
Sweet! I think this solidifies your bona fides as a prophet!
Ah geez if only I wasn't disqualified from such an office!
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The U.S., I agree, is guilty of immorality and colonialist kinds of activities
As compared to who? Where are these countries of morality that's white as the driven snow? We live in the real world where sometimes even a good country is confronted with only bad choices. Given that backdrop, the United States is one of the most moral countries that has ever existed in all of human history.
I'm theocratic at heart because I believe the Bible itself is theocratic. God does allow human choice, and God expects us to face political realities. But countries with excessive tolerance, giving freedom of religion and freedom of moral license, are held responsible by God, whether they are ignorant of His laws or not. Just my beliefs, friend.
When God said, "Have no other gods," He did not mean, "your country is good if you give people free religious choices." Yes, God allows people free choice, but then judges them for making the wrong choice or even for allowing the wrong free choices.
I'll give you an example. I tell you that you are free to indulge in any particular activity you want in your back yard, whether recreational or business, as long as it doesn't disturb me, your neighbor. I'm giving you freedom of choice, but not unlimited freedom of choice.
When governments tell people they can exercise their religious freedoms, it doesn't mean they can exercise any religious freedom. Determining the right religion is the domain of God Himself, and also the responsibility of those who know Him. Those who don't know Him obviously aren't going to require the right religion, but can still determine a generally acceptable morality even in their ignorance.
The US began with several religious viewpoints, and the founding fathers began as a compromise, between Christians of several kinds and Deists, as well as perhaps even Jews and Muslims. Deists would tolerate Jews and Muslims, and Christians would tolerate Jews and Muslims without enabling them to try to displace a Christian State.
But gradually, tolerance for a mixed State has prevailed, as even the original documents reveal. The US was a mixed religious State from the beginning, and the result has been an eroded morality. Free choice, but a wrong religious choice. Just my view, and you're certainly entitled to yours.
I would inform you, however, that even though I believe in a singular Christian system, I do not believe in persecuting those of other religions. Again, they have freedom of conscience--just not freedom to promote anarchy, civil disobedience, and schism in our society. Obviously, I have a different view of "freedom of religion" and "freedom of speech" than is stated in our Bill of Rights. I hope this helps you understand my position?
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Daniel 9:v.24KJV: - GOD revealed to Daniel that 70 weeks (490 years) was determined upon His people, and upon the holy city for finishing :
(1) the transgression -
(2) to make an end of sins,
(3) to make reconciliation for iniquity,
(4) to bring in everlasting righteousness,
(5) to seal up the vision and prophecy,
(6) to anoint the most Holy.
As I've already said (sigh), this could be a warning instead of a prophecy. From the year of Daniel's vision, they have 490 years to set things right. By 104 BC, Alexander Yannai will ascend the throne and things completely fall apart; the Romans end up occupying Judea, leading to the Jewish revolt, the destruction of the temple and a 2,000 year Jewish diaspora. This isn't speculation, it's historical fact.
That position would also be consistent with the historical system of interpretation, which is what I believe. I'm neither a Preterist nor a Partial Preterist. And yet I'm told I am, simply because I believe this particular prophecy was fulfilled in history, namely the fall of Jerusalem in 70 AD, which Jesus predicted would take place in his generation.
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I'm theocratic at heart because I believe the Bible itself is theocratic.
The bible is theocratic- but only for the Jews. It gives a complete set of civil and criminal laws to build that society on. The NT is specifically, textually not theocratic. Render unto Caeser.
But countries with excessive tolerance, giving freedom of religion and freedom of moral license, are held responsible by God
I would consider these virtues, my friend. Not vices. You try living as a religious minority and see how that goes.
When God said, "Have no other gods,"
God also said "I am the Lord your God who took you out of Egypt." That was the target of that message.
I'll give you an example. I tell you that you are free to indulge in any particular activity you want in your back yard, whether recreational or business, as long as it doesn't disturb me, your neighbor. I'm giving you freedom of choice, but not unlimited freedom of choice.
When governments tell people they can exercise their religious freedoms, it doesn't mean they can exercise any religious freedom. Determining the right religion is the domain of God Himself, and also the responsibility of those who know Him. Those who don't know Him obviously aren't going to require the right religion, but can still determine a generally acceptable morality even in their ignorance.
The US began with several religious viewpoints, and the founding fathers began as a compromise, between Christians of several kinds and Deists, as well as perhaps even Jews and Muslims. Deists would tolerate Jews and Muslims, and Christians would tolerate Jews and Muslims without enabling them to try to displace a Christian State.
But gradually, tolerance for a mixed State has prevailed, as even the original documents reveal. The US was a mixed religious State from the beginning, and the result has been an eroded morality. Free choice, but a wrong religious choice.
Wrong religious choice- according to you. Why should you get to decide and not me?
I would inform you, however, that even though I believe in a singular Christian system, I do not believe in persecuting those of other religions. Again, they have freedom of conscience--just not freedom to promote anarchy, civil disobedience, and schism in our society.
Much good has been done with civil disobedience, a shame you can't see that.
Obviously, I have a different view of "freedom of religion" and "freedom of speech" than is stated in our Bill of Rights. I hope this helps you understand my position?
Yes. And it's terrifying.
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Greatly terrifying
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Yes. And it's terrifying.
It reads to me like "We live in the real world where sometimes even a good country is confronted with only bad choices" was glossed over. I think it's safe to assume that we've all had to make decisions - at least one - that included only non-ideal options: which is the best worst option? The least worst? And so on.
Divorced from that context it's easy to talk about proper religion blah blah blah. With that context in mind, or having had to make such decisions? It's not so easy. I know for myself the religious (read Christian) crowd would have driven me to suicide if I did only what they thought I ought to do, was properly religious, and so on.
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It's "terrifying" to throw your lot in which those who promote freedom of idolatry in a Christian society!
Is it correct to require political conformity to a single religious system? Even non-Christian Jews in Israel recognize the importance of preserving a specifically Jewish State. To allow sectarian division in a truly Christian country is to invite schism, rebellion, and revolution. There has to be some sort of preventive to guard against political anarchy.
Is it correct to require a stable set of moral guidelines in a State nominally Christian? To do otherwise is to invite disorder and chaos, since behavior considered "reprobate" by the Christian society is a threat to Christian families.
For example, freedom for polygamy or for homosexuality poses a threat to the family structure in a Christian system. We can't just allow "moral choice" at the expense of political order.
Those who view themselves as believers in polygamy, such as Mormons, or who view themselves a homosexuals, may believe what they want. But they should not be given freedom to indulge their acts in a Christian society and so threaten social order according to Christian standards.
I'm terrified of giving America a "green light" to serve Baal, to practice homosexuality, to follow other religious values the equivalent of "evil." God told us not to do that, and I choose to fear Him!
Growing up in a liberal society and being given a liberal education has corrupted our minds, to some degree. Let's make our minds conform with the biblical mind-set?
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Yes. And it's terrifying.
It reads to me like "We live in the real world where sometimes even a good country is confronted with only bad choices" was glossed over. I think it's safe to assume that we've all had to make decisions - at least one - that included only non-ideal options: which is the best worst option? The least worst? And so on.
Divorced from that context it's easy to talk about proper religion blah blah blah. With that context in mind, or having had to make such decisions? It's not so easy. I know for myself the religious (read Christian) crowd would have driven me to suicide if I did only what they thought I ought to do, was properly religious, and so on.
I see the goal of the Evil One is to sow anarchy, and to invite confusion, frustration, and a "give up" attitude. Clarity comes from focusing on God's mind-set--not someone's idea of God's mind-set, but the mind-set set forth in the pages of Scriptures.
Why get confused because a bunch of liberal theologians have a thousand different ideas of what the Scriptures say? A simple look at basic biblical standards will tell you what the right political and moral system requires. But yes, it isn't so simple!
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The bible is theocratic- but only for the Jews.
You and I are *always* going to have a problem with this viewpoint. I *don't* believe theocracy was only in the Old Testament. Jesus preached the "Kingdom of God," which is the Christian standard.
Sadly, the greatest opposition to standard Christian thinking about this political reality are liberal Christian theologians, who have succeeded in opposing it and in watering it down. Today's modern liberal theologians are the equivalent of the OT "priests of Baal," in my opinion.
God also said "I am the Lord your God who took you out of Egypt." That was the target of that message.
The same God who targeted Israel coming out of the wilderness is the God of all history. His standards, political and moral, have not changed.
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I see the goal of the Evil One is to sow anarchy, and to invite confusion, frustration, and a "give up" attitude. Clarity comes from focusing on God's mind-set--not someone's idea of God's mind-set, but the mind-set set forth in the pages of Scriptures.
Deciding between only bad options is not the exclusive domain of Satan and his mischievious manipulations (although, speaking of manipulations...).
Why get confused because a bunch of liberal theologians have a thousand different ideas of what the Scriptures say? A simple look at basic biblical standards will tell you what the right political and moral system requires. But yes, it isn't so simple!
There are without a doubt, liberal theologians. But they aren't throwing out 'a thousand different ideas of what the Scriptures say' in some special way, or at least, in a way that conservative or orthodox theologians don't already do themselves. 'Liberal theologians' are, by and large, boogeymen (I know my fair share, and I don't just mean read). Besides, why are we assuming liberal theologians are wrong or have nothing of value to offer? That they only invite confusion?
It's not simple, and there's no such thing as a 'simple look at the basic biblical standards' that inform political and moral systems. As I said, something like this is the view that started leading me down the path towards suicide. It sounds great on paper, but its reality is the stuff of horror. Hard decisions sometimes have to be made, and theology doesn't just breeze through the difficulties of life as if we have some immediately knowable, stable base. It's like, here's the ideal, and here are my choices, and none of them are good, and all of them conflict with my theological tenants, so how do I then live (see what I did there)?
A great many Christians I've met simply bang on about the same thing over and over again as if it's going to help after the thousandth repetition. People need the freedom to be wrong, to act immorally in the eyes of others (to a limit). I in fact made the best worst decision I've ever made. Plenty of Christians have an extraordinarily low view of me because of it, but they didn't offer anything other than rote repetitions of belief A and proposition B. As we're all aware, life is hard, and complicated, and messy, and sometimes the bad that comes from a bad decision is better than the worse thing that could have happened from a worse decision. Theologically that only speaks towards the reality that we all fall short.
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Is it correct to require political conformity to a single religious system?
For a Christian, yes. Jesus said "render unto Ceasar", but I guess you know better.
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Even non-Christian Jews in Israel recognize the importance of preserving a specifically Jewish State. To allow sectarian division in a truly Christian country is to invite schism, rebellion, and revolution.
You obviously don't know many Jews and nothing about the internal politics of Israel. There's tons of sectarian division in the Israeli government and in Israeli politics generally. And Israel being a "Jewish state" doesn't impact the Christians and Muslims in the country in any way.
So stop using bad examples.
Growing up in a liberal society and being given a liberal education has corrupted our minds, to some degree. Let's make our minds conform with the biblical mind-set?
I grew up in a household of biblical values and studied in Yeshiva until I was 20 years old. I'm currently enrolled in an ordination program. How much more biblical are you looking for? Or is your use of the term "biblical" intended to mean "people who agree with me"?
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You and I are *always* going to have a problem with this viewpoint. I *don't* believe theocracy was only in the Old Testament. Jesus preached the "Kingdom of God," which is the Christian standard.
The Christian "kingdom of God" is spiritual. Again how is it that I understand Christian theology better than you do?
The same God who targeted Israel coming out of the wilderness is the God of all history. His standards, political and moral, have not changed.
But they also don't apply to people not under the covenant.
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You obviously don't know many Jews and nothing about the internal politics of Israel. There's tons of sectarian division in the Israeli government and in Israeli politics generally. And Israel being a "Jewish state" doesn't impact the Christians and Muslims in the country in any way.
If liberal theologians are bad, but Israel is good, how liberal would Israel be considered in the eyes of the average conservative American Christian? I've always had the impression that Israel is quite liberal, and the dislike of liberal theology combined with the almost worship of Israel with respect to the 'End Times' to be highly confusing.