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Other Categories => Controversial Issues => Non Christian Perspective => Topic started by: Fenris on August 30, 2023, 10:51:50 AM
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Or, one of the reasons that Jews don't believe that Jesus was the messiah.
The second half of Ezekiel 37 is an excellent summary of the Jewish expectations of the messianic era.
Let's start at verse 21.
So says the Lord God: "Behold I will take the children of Israel from among the nations where they have gone, and I will gather them from every side, and I will bring them to their land. And I will make them into one nation in the land upon the mountains of Israel, and one king shall be to them all as a king; and they shall no longer be two nations, neither shall they be divided into two kingdoms anymore. And they shall no longer defile themselves with their idols, with their detestable things, or with all their transgressions, and I will save them from all their habitations in which they have sinned, and I will purify them, and they shall be to Me as a people, and I will be to them as a God. And My servant David shall be king over them, and one shepherd shall be for them all, and they shall walk in My ordinances and observe My statutes and perform them. And they shall dwell on the land that I have given to My servant, to Jacob, wherein your forefathers lived; and they shall dwell upon it, they and their children and their children's children, forever; and My servant David shall be their prince forever. And I will form a covenant of peace for them, an everlasting covenant shall be with them; and I will establish them and I will multiply them, and I will place My Sanctuary in their midst forever. And My dwelling place shall be over them, and I will be to them for a God, and they shall be to Me as a people. And the nations shall know that I am the Lord, Who sanctifies Israel, when My Sanctuary is in their midst forever."
Verse by verse analysis.
Behold I will take the children of Israel from among the nations where they have gone, and I will gather them from every side, and I will bring them to their land.
The Jewish exiles will be returned to the land of Israel.
And I will make them into one nation in the land upon the mountains of Israel, and one king shall be to them all as a king; and they shall no longer be two nations, neither shall they be divided into two kingdoms anymore.
They will be one, united kingdom. They will no longer be divided into the kingdoms of Israel and Judah.
And they shall no longer defile themselves with their idols, with their detestable things, or with all their transgressions
No more idolatry, no more sinning.
I will save them from all their habitations in which they have sinned, and I will purify them
God will forgive their sins and purify them.
they shall be to Me as a people, and I will be to them as a God.
Self explanatory.
My servant David shall be king over them, and one shepherd shall be for them all
A king from the line of David will be on the throne.
and they shall walk in My ordinances and observe My statutes and perform them
There will be scrupulous observance of biblical law.
And they shall dwell on the land that I have given to My servant, to Jacob, wherein your forefathers lived; and they shall dwell upon it, they and their children and their children's children, forever
They will dwell in the land of Israel forever; there will be no further exiles.
My servant David shall be their prince forever.
There will always be a king from the line of David on the throne.
And I will form a covenant of peace for them, an everlasting covenant shall be with them
There will be peace forever.
I will establish them and I will multiply them
Self explanatory.
I will place My Sanctuary in their midst forever.
There will be a rebuilt temple, never to be destroyed.
And the nations shall know that I am the Lord, Who sanctifies Israel, when My Sanctuary is in their midst forever
The nations will know that God exists and that He sanctifies Israel.
Being as none of this has yet happened, one concludes that we are not living in the messianic era. Although the ingathering of exiles is ongoing, and so one can conclude (as I do) that the process has begun.
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Smart people like yourself educate themselves about a matter so they know what they're disagreeing with, and I know you have done your due diligence over the years. Regarding the matter at hand, the thing to remember is, for the Christian, God's kingdom was established with the victory of Jesus' cross, but invisibly. The earthly messianic era you describe will transpire after Jesus returns on the day of the Lord, as depicted in the Olivet Discourse--which corresponds with Zechariah 12 and Eezekiel 38 and 39. Jesus' feet will touch the Mount of Olives, splitting it in two.
I believe Israel will be hemmed in between the Mountain and her enemies at that point, and when it splits, it will create a great valley providing safe passage--being similar to the Red Sea event. Descending from heaven with His angels at a time Israel is under assault and outnumbered by a massive coalition of nations, Jesus and the angels will make a short work of the enemies, at which point, Israel will realize who He is. After the great battle, the earthly kingdom will be established, and thus begins the messianic era. As you said earlier, time will reveal all.
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Regarding the matter at hand, the thing to remember is, for the Christian, God's kingdom was established with the victory of Jesus' cross, but invisibly.
And yet the signs described in the bible are all visible. Is it any wonder that we're still waiting?
The earthly messianic era you describe will transpire after Jesus returns on the day of the Lord
Right. The Second Coming. Unfortunately not described in the Jewish bible.
As you said earlier, time will reveal all.
Surely you can understand, though, why Jews are still waiting?
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And yet the signs described in the bible are all visible. Is it any wonder that we're still waiting?
I understand your perspective and your expectations. Jesus was rejected by most Jews because He did not kick the Romans out of Jerusalem and set up the earthly kingdom when they expected Him to. God does things His way and in His own time.
Right. The Second Coming. Unfortunately not described in the Jewish bible.
I also referred to it as the day of the Lord, which is in the Jewish Bible.
Surely you can understand, though, why Jews are still waiting?
Absolutely. We're still waiting too.
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I understand your perspective and your expectations. Jesus was rejected by most Jews because He did not kick the Romans out of Jerusalem and set up the earthly kingdom when they expected Him to. God does things His way and in His own time.
So... does that mean that Ezekiel 37 will be fulfilled literally?
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So... does that mean that Ezekiel 37 will be fulfilled literally?
Like some Bible scholars, I believe the vision of the dry bones represents a two phase return of Israel. The assembling of the bones and flesh into complete people portrays the physical return of the Jews to the land. That's what we're in the middle of now. The second phase is the spiritual rebirth of the nation that will come later, seen in the wind sending breath into the people. Many of the people in Israel today are secular. I believe when the messiah comes He will bring about a spiritual awakening in all the people. This is seen in Ezekiel 36:26-27, when God puts His Spirit in them:
I will give you a new heart and put a new spirit within you; I will remove your heart of stone and give you a heart of flesh. And I will put My Spirit within you and cause you to walk in My statutes and to carefully observe My ordinances.
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Like some Bible scholars, I believe the vision of the dry bones represents a two phase return of Israel. The assembling of the bones and flesh into complete people portrays the physical return of the Jews to the land. That's what we're in the middle of now.
Possibly. Or it could refer to the resurrection of the dead?
The second phase is the spiritual rebirth of the nation that will come later
And what about the second half of the chapter? The part I quoted and explained, above?
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Possibly. Or it could refer to the resurrection of the dead?
I believe it refers to both.
And what about the second half of the chapter? The part I quoted and explained, above?
It's all part of the events and conditions pertaining to the messianic era. I believe everything you believe, except with Jesus as the messiah. Time will tell.
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It's all part of the events and conditions pertaining to the messianic era. I believe everything you believe, except with Jesus as the messiah. Time will tell.
Then you must also believe that the Jewish wait for the messiah is not in vain?
We just believe that he'll get it done on the first try. There's no indication of any second coming in the Jewish bible.
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Then you must also believe that the Jewish wait for the messiah is not in vain?
We just believe that he'll get it done on the first try. There's no indication of any second coming in the Jewish bible.
Well, references to Jesus as the suffering servant and the smitten shepherd speak to that issue, but those arguments are rejected out of hand. But, no sense in beating on that dead horse any more, is it? :)
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Well, references to Jesus as the suffering servant and the smitten shepherd speak to that issue, but those arguments are rejected out of hand.
To go back to the original post, the prophecies of the messiah come with accomplishments that are visible. Exiles gathered. Temple rebuilt. World peace. Universal knowledge of God. None of those things have happened. Jesus saying that his kingdom "is not of this world" is fitting, because he accomplished nothing that can be seen. And so you are forced to find biblical links to his identity (as a suffering servant or smitten shepherd), and all the visible signs are pushed off to a second coming.
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To go back to the original post, the prophecies of the messiah come with accomplishments that are visible. Exiles gathered. Temple rebuilt. World peace. Universal knowledge of God. None of those things have happened. Jesus saying that his kingdom "is not of this world" is fitting, because he accomplished nothing that can be seen. And so you are forced to find biblical links to his identity (as a suffering servant or smitten shepherd), and all the visible signs are pushed off to a second coming.
I understand your expectations of the messianic era, but what about the messiah himself? How do you envision him? I know he is expecteded to be kind of a Moses and king David rolled into one, and will reign over the nations from Jerusalem, but how do you see him appearing? You said you believe the individual in Daniel seen being brought upon clouds before the ancient of days seems to be the messiah. That doesn't sound like an ordinary human descendant of David. I know Jesus was last seen ascending to God on clouds, but He's not considered a candidate. So who in your opinion is the cloud-riding dude in Daniel, and where does he come from?
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I understand your expectations of the messianic era, but what about the messiah himself?
Ah. So this is where Christianity shines. Because having pushed off the messiah's mission to a "second coming", you are free to find signs of the messiah's identity anyplace that you can. Which is what the overwhelming majority of of Christian proof texts is all about.
Scion of David. Suffering servant. Smitten shepherd. Pierced at the hand and feet. Virgin birth. And so on. With some imagination one can find Jesus in almost every verse in the bible, whether it was put there by the Author or not.
How do you envision him?
As a righteous king who will rule over Israel. An exemplary individual. But nonetheless a human being. His power of prophecy will be awesome, but still second to Moses.
who in your opinion is the cloud-riding dude in Daniel, and where does he come from?
Christians have spiritualized God's promises to Israel, but this verse has to be taken hyper literally? No, I think it's only fair that I can interpret this in a non literal and poetic way.
Thedore Herzl is considered the father of modern Zionism, the idea that the Jewish people deserve a nation state of their own. He wrote a book on the topic and chaired the Fist Zionist Congress in 1897. Because of his idea, after the first world war when the middle east fell under western rule, the Balfour Declaration was made and land set aside to become the Jewish state in the levant. After the second world war the Jewish state became a reality, coming into existence in a single moment after a UN vote (shades of Isaiah 66: Can a country be born in a day or a nation be brought forth in a moment? ) Herzl did not live to see this occur, having died in 1904.
Herzl was not a religious Jew. He was thoroughly secularized and his reasons for wishing for a Jewish state were practical and not religious. He was a journalist at the infamous Dreyfuss trial, where a French-Jewish general was accused of treason, selling the French military plans to the Germans. (He was found guilty and sentenced to a penal colony. He was eventually cleared of all charges.) At the trial, mobs of French outside the courthouse where screaming "kill the Jews". He reasoned that if Jews could not be given a fair shake in liberal France, they needed their own country.
Why am I telling you all this? Because shortly before his death in 1904, Herzl gave an interview. He described something that happened to him when he was just a child. It goes like this-
...one night I had a wonderful dream. The King-Messiah came, a glorious and majestic old man, took me in his arms, and swept me on the wings of the wind. On one of the shining clouds we encountered the figure of Moses ....The Messiah called to Moses: ‘It is for this child that I have prayed!’ And to me he said: ‘Go and declare to the Jews that I shall come soon and perform great wonders and great deeds for my people and for the whole world!
I find this to be amazing. Herzl is describing his own role in the redemption of the Jewish people and the return to their homeland. It was not something he lived to see, but he laid the foundation of what was to happen. And in religious terms, no less. This seems to me to be an obvious incident of prophecy.
Oh, and he describes himself as being swept up in the winds to shining clouds. So maybe he's the cloud riding dude.
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Fenris reads like a nice guy. His posting are interesting and thought provoking. Where do the Christians here place this passage in their understanding of the Scriptures.
2Jn 1:7 For many deceivers are entered into the world, who confess not that Jesus Christ is come in the flesh. This is a deceiver and an antichrist.
2Jn 1:8 Look to yourselves, that we lose not those things which we have wrought, but that we receive a full reward.
2Jn 1:9 Whosoever transgresseth, and abideth not in the doctrine of Christ, hath not God. He that abideth in the doctrine of Christ, he hath both the Father and the Son.
2Jn 1:10 If there come any unto you, and bring not this doctrine, receive him not into your house, neither bid him God speed:
2Jn 1:11 For he that biddeth him God speed is partaker of his evil deeds.
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Fenris reads like a nice guy. His posting are interesting and thought provoking. Where do the Christians here place this passage in their understanding of the Scriptures.
2Jn 1:7 For many deceivers are entered into the world, who confess not that Jesus Christ is come in the flesh. This is a deceiver and an antichrist.
Ooh, I'm the antichrist! Should I be flattered or insulted?
Ah, life's too short. I'll be flattered. 8)
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I understand your expectations of the messianic era, but what about the messiah himself?
Ah. So this is where Christianity shines. Because having pushed off the messiah's mission to a "second coming", you are free to find signs of the messiah's identity anyplace that you can. Which is what the overwhelming majority of of Christian proof texts is all about.
Scion of David. Suffering servant. Smitten shepherd. Pierced at the hand and feet. Virgin birth. And so on. With some imagination one can find Jesus in almost every verse in the bible, whether it was put there by the Author or not.
How do you envision him?
As a righteous king who will rule over Israel. An exemplary individual. But nonetheless a human being. His power of prophecy will be awesome, but still second to Moses.
who in your opinion is the cloud-riding dude in Daniel, and where does he come from?
Christians have spiritualized God's promises to Israel, but this verse has to be taken hyper literally? No, I think it's only fair that I can interpret this in a non literal and poetic way.
Thedore Herzl is considered the father of modern Zionism, the idea that the Jewish people deserve a nation state of their own. He wrote a book on the topic and chaired the Fist Zionist Congress in 1897. Because of his idea, after the first world war when the middle east fell under western rule, the Balfour Declaration was made and land set aside to become the Jewish state in the levant. After the second world war the Jewish state became a reality, coming into existence in a single moment after a UN vote (shades of Isaiah 66: Can a country be born in a day or a nation be brought forth in a moment? ) Herzl did not live to see this occur, having died in 1904.
Herzl was not a religious Jew. He was thoroughly secularized and his reasons for wishing for a Jewish state were practical and not religious. He was a journalist at the infamous Dreyfuss trial, where a French-Jewish general was accused of treason, selling the French military plans to the Germans. (He was found guilty and sentenced to a penal colony. He was eventually cleared of all charges.) At the trial, mobs of French outside the courthouse where screaming "kill the Jews". He reasoned that if Jews could not be given a fair shake in liberal France, they needed their own country.
Why am I telling you all this? Because shortly before his death in 1904, Herzl gave an interview. He described something that happened to him when he was just a child. It goes like this-
...one night I had a wonderful dream. The King-Messiah came, a glorious and majestic old man, took me in his arms, and swept me on the wings of the wind. On one of the shining clouds we encountered the figure of Moses ....The Messiah called to Moses: ‘It is for this child that I have prayed!’ And to me he said: ‘Go and declare to the Jews that I shall come soon and perform great wonders and great deeds for my people and for the whole world!
I find this to be amazing. Herzl is describing his own role in the redemption of the Jewish people and the return to their homeland. It was not something he lived to see, but he laid the foundation of what was to happen. And in religious terms, no less. This seems to me to be an obvious incident of prophecy.
Oh, and he describes himself as being swept up in the winds to shining clouds. So maybe he's the cloud riding dude.
How do we know the covenant between God and Abraham and the accomplishments of Moses are not fictiion--as many hold the story of Job to be? How do we know God spoke to Moses from a burning bush, and that he successfully liberated the Hebrews from Egyptian slavery? Where is the ark of the covenant--if it ever actually existed? How do we know the tanakh is not a carefully crafted fabrication?
We don't. But I choose to believe it to be factual just as I do the NT. Faith in Jesus as the resurrected Son of God is fundamental to Christianity, and I believe the recorded eyewitness testimony about Him as deeply as you believe in the veracity of the tanakh. While you seek to marginalize faith as a factor in your religion, the truth is, you cannot maintain your beliefs without it. Believing in God is in itself an expression of faith. And in the final analysis, my faith is as valid as yours.
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How do we know the covenant between God and Abraham and the accomplishments of Moses are not fictiion--as many hold the story of Job to be? How do we know God spoke to Moses from a burning bush, and that he successfully liberated the Hebrews from Egyptian slavery? Where is the ark of the covenant--if it ever actually existed? How do we know the tanakh is not a carefully crafted fabrication?
It's not about the bible being real or fake. We both accept it as real.
The bible communicates certain ideas, responsibilities, and promises. You're basically telling me not to believe that the bible means what it says. Not just about the messiah, but about lots of things. And I'm expected to do this "out of faith" that people who started another religion were actually sent by God, even though what they said was in direct contradiction to what God had said in the bible. How could I stand before God in judgement? "Why did you believe that person over Me?"
I only took such liberties in being direct because this is the "non Christian perspective" part of the forum.
I trust you can understand the Jewish perspective on why we're still waiting for the messiah now.
And in the final analysis, my faith is as valid as yours.
I never said otherwise.
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Or, one of the reasons that Jews don't believe that Jesus was the messiah.
The second half of Ezekiel 37 is an excellent summary of the Jewish expectations of the messianic era.
Let's start at verse 21.
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Being as none of this has yet happened, one concludes that we are not living in the messianic era. Although the ingathering of exiles is ongoing, and so one can conclude (as I do) that the process has begun.
Indeed, not fulfilled yet, like the rest of Ezekiel. And there is Zachariah chapter 12-14, not fulfilled yet.
I am interested how all these chapters match with Isaiah 65 -
17 For, behold, I create new heavens and a new earth: and the former shall not be remembered, nor come into mind. 18 But be ye glad and rejoice for ever [in that] which I create: for, behold, I create Jerusalem a rejoicing, and her people a joy. 19 And I will rejoice in Jerusalem, and joy in my people: and the voice of weeping shall be no more heard in her, nor the voice of crying. 20 There shall be no more thence an infant of days, nor an old man that hath not filled his days: for the child shall die an hundred years old; but the sinner [being] an hundred years old shall be accursed. 21 And they shall build houses, and inhabit [them]; and they shall plant vineyards, and eat the fruit of them. 22 They shall not build, and another inhabit; they shall not plant, and another eat: for as the days of a tree [are] the days of my people, and mine elect shall long enjoy the work of their hands. 23 They shall not labour in vain, nor bring forth for trouble; for they [are] the seed of the blessed of the LORD, and their offspring with them. 24 And it shall come to pass, that before they call, I will answer; and while they are yet speaking, I will hear. 25 The wolf and the lamb shall feed together, and the lion shall eat straw like the bullock: and dust [shall be] the serpent's meat. They shall not hurt nor destroy in all my holy mountain, saith the LORD.
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On v17 - I create new heavens and a new earth, is humanity moved to a different (non earth) place?
On v20, people still die?
On v25, matches with God's original (supernatural creation) in the garden, see - And God said, “Behold, I have given you every plant yielding seed that is on the face of all the earth, and every tree with seed in its fruit. You shall have them for food. 30 And to every beast of the earth and to every bird of the heavens and to everything that creeps on the earth, everything that has the breath of life, I have given every green plant for food.”
So, no more flesh for food, that's okay for humans but for a lion (like any other predator) this means death. To me this indicates that v17 means a sort of return to Eden.
Your view?
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Fenris reads like a nice guy. His posting are interesting and thought provoking. Where do the Christians here place this passage in their understanding of the Scriptures.
2Jn 1:7 For many deceivers are entered into the world, who confess not that Jesus Christ is come in the flesh. This is a deceiver and an antichrist.
Ooh, I'm the antichrist! Should I be flattered or insulted?
Ah, life's too short. I'll be flattered. 8)
I did not say you are the antichrist. Your religion is unashamedly antichrist no doubt as a Jew who follows Judaism being flattered is your best option. :) My question is to the Christians who post here. Do they take to heart their Scriptures as strongly as you take to yours. ?
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I did not say you are the antichrist. Your religion is unashamedly antichrist
My religion is not antichrist. Jesus is not a factor in my religion at all.
My question is to the Christians who post here. Do they take to heart their Scriptures as strongly as you take to yours. ?
I am sure that they do.
My question to you is this. Does it mean anything to you that I am as strong in my religious faith as you are in yours? There's no wrong answer, I am just curious.
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Indeed, not fulfilled yet, like the rest of Ezekiel. And there is Zachariah chapter 12-14, not fulfilled yet.
OK, so being "not fulfilled" means it is perfectly reasonable for the Jewish believer to conclude that the messiah has not yet come. No?
I am interested how all these chapters match with Isaiah 65 -
Your view?
Could be poetic. What does a return to Eden look like? I don't know.
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I did not say you are the antichrist. Your religion is unashamedly antichrist
My religion is not antichrist. Jesus is not a factor in my religion at all.
My question is to the Christians who post here. Do they take to heart their Scriptures as strongly as you take to yours. ?
I am sure that they do.
My question to you is this. Does it mean anything to you that I am as strong in my religious faith as you are in yours? There's no wrong answer, I am just curious.
It is to be respected, so yes, which sounds kinda crazy cuz you are flat out wrong. :) Because of what John penned in John 1& 2 , i would not give you a continuing platform to promote what to me is a antichrist religion. I do find your understanding of the OT very interesting. Can we agree Moses looks like Charlton Heston?
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It is to be respected, so yes, which sounds kinda crazy cuz you are flat out wrong.
Maybe you're flat out wrong. Or maybe we're both wrong, and the Muslims or right. Or the Hindus. Or those who worship Cthulu.
Because of what John penned in John 1& 2 , i would not give you a continuing platform to promote what to me is a antichrist religion.
This is the "non Christian perspective" part of the forum. Nobody is forcing you to read my heresy. Or is it heresy?
I do find your understanding of the OT very interesting.
Thank you! If I can inform and entertain, my day has not been a waste.
Can we agree Moses looks like Charlton Heston?
Now that was one cool looking Moses.
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It is to be respected, so yes, which sounds kinda crazy cuz you are flat out wrong.
Maybe you're flat out wrong. Or maybe we're both wrong, and the Muslims or right. Or the Hindus. Or those who worship Cthulu.
Because of what John penned in John 1& 2 , i would not give you a continuing platform to promote what to me is a antichrist religion.
This is the "non Christian perspective" part of the forum. Nobody is forcing you to read my heresy. Or is it heresy?
I do find your understanding of the OT very interesting.
Thank you! If I can inform and entertain, my day has not been a waste.
Can we agree Moses looks like Charlton Heston?
Now that was one cool looking Moses.
My beliefs are not heresy no doubt. Those are not my word I quoted the Scriptures.
Yep we get Moses..... and..... Pharaoh Yul Brynner right ? Movies not often a good Bible teacher.
I argue with myself about posting here, here meaning any of the site. Looking for the justification i need for me.
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I argue with myself about posting here, here meaning any of the site. Looking for the justification i need for me.
Well ignoring me and my heretical views, there are many wise people on this site to learn from. Devout Christians who have great insights to share. Even I have learned many interesting things from them. But at the end of the day it is your choice whether to stay or not.
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I argue with myself about posting here, here meaning any of the site. Looking for the justification i need for me.
Well ignoring me and my heretical views, there are many wise people on this site to learn from. Devout Christians who have great insights to share. Even I have learned many interesting things from them. But at the end of the day it is your choice whether to stay or not.
Bare with me my writing skills are lacking....
You say devout Christians. As a devout Jew , what parts and why would you ignore a passage of Scripture? You see what i am asking is would/should/could a devout/well studied Christian ignore John 1 and 2 ?
Soon i will stop asking you questions i do not mean in any way to be disrespectful. I believe folks can disagree with respect.
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How do we know the covenant between God and Abraham and the accomplishments of Moses are not fictiion--as many hold the story of Job to be? How do we know God spoke to Moses from a burning bush, and that he successfully liberated the Hebrews from Egyptian slavery? Where is the ark of the covenant--if it ever actually existed? How do we know the tanakh is not a carefully crafted fabrication?
It's not about the bible being real or fake. We both accept it as real.
I was attempting to make the point that the reasons you have for rejecting the veracity of the NT also apply to the tanakh. We know the names ascribed to the books of the tanakh, but the actual authors cannot be verified any more definitively than those of the NT. I mean Deuteronomy, attributed to Moses, includes the account of his death. At the end of the day, faith in the divine inspiration is a common denominator.
The bible communicates certain ideas, responsibilities, and promises. You're basically telling me not to believe that the bible means what it says. Not just about the messiah, but about lots of things. And I'm expected to do this "out of faith" that people who started another religion were actually sent by God, even though what they said was in direct contradiction to what God had said in the bible.
Excuse me? I'm neither seeking to dissuade you from your beliefs nor misrepresent the truth of the Bible. I'm stating what I believe, and for some reason that encroaches upon and violates the sanctity of your religious sensibilities. I've always expressed admiration for your devotion to your faith and strength of your convictions, even when we disagree, so I don't know why I'm being cast in the role of Satan, seeking to corrupt your faith.
How could I stand before God in judgement? "Why did you believe that person over Me?"
Ah, my sinister scheme to alienate you from God is exposed.
I only took such liberties in being direct because this is the "non Christian perspective" part of the forum.
I trust you can understand the Jewish perspective on why we're still waiting for the messiah now.
I understood your perspective prior to the diatribe.
And in the final analysis, my faith is as valid as yours.
I never said otherwise.
I beg to differ. My faith is hardly valid if it's "in direct contradiction to what God had said in the bible." If the contrasting of my beliefs with yours so raises your ire, I'll simply refrain from such theological discussions in the future.
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Bare with me my writing skills are lacking....
Humility is a refined trait. Bless you.
You say devout Christians. As a devout Jew , what parts and why would you ignore a passage of Scripture? You see what i am asking is would/should/could a devout/well studied Christian ignore John 1 and 2 ?
I am not suggesting that you ignore anything in your bible. But perhaps it could be understood in a different way. Ask the others what they think. Start a discussion specifically on the verses you find important and yet are conflicted about.
Soon i will stop asking you questions i do not mean in any way to be disrespectful. I believe folks can disagree with respect.
I don't think you're being disrespectful. And how can you learn without asking questions?
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I was attempting to make the point that the reasons you have for rejecting the veracity of the NT also apply to the tanakh.
I don't see it that way. The books in the Tanakh don't contradict each other. The books in the NT do, in my humble opinion, contradict what is written in the Tanakh. It's not a small problem. Jews don't reject Christianity because we don't know what's in our own bible. The opposite; we know it too well.
Excuse me? I'm neither seeking to dissuade you from your beliefs nor misrepresent the truth of the Bible. I'm stating what I believe, and for some reason that encroaches upon and violates the sanctity of your religious sensibilities. I've always expressed admiration for your devotion to your faith and strength of your convictions, even when we disagree, so I don't know why I'm being cast in the role of Satan, seeking to corrupt your faith.
I never accused you of being Satan. I think that Christians should go on being good Christians, and leave Jews alone to go on being Jews.
Ah, my sinister scheme to alienate you from God is exposed.
There's no scheme by you. We understand each other very well.
I understood your perspective prior to the diatribe.
Excellent.
I beg to differ. My faith is hardly valid if it's "in direct contradiction to what God had said in the bible." If the contrasting of my beliefs with yours so raises your ire, I'll simply refrain from such theological discussions in the future.
This is the "non Christian perspective", yes? I'm sharing the Jewish perspective on the Christian bible.
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I never accused you of being Satan. I think that Christians should go on being good Christians, and leave Jews alone to go on being Jews.
Certainly you can understand that Christianity is generally evangelistic by nature. But let me assure you, I think Louis Farrakhan stands a better chance of becoming the Imperial Wizard of the KKK than I would of converting you from Judaism. Perish the thought. :)
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Certainly you can understand that Christianity is generally evangelistic by nature. But let me assure you, I think Louis Farrakhan stands a better chance of becoming the Imperial Wizard of the KKK than I would of converting you from Judaism. Perish the thought. :)
;D You're a clown. Enjoy the long weekend!
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Certainly you can understand that Christianity is generally evangelistic by nature. But let me assure you, I think Louis Farrakhan stands a better chance of becoming the Imperial Wizard of the KKK than I would of converting you from Judaism. Perish the thought. :)
;D You're a clown. Enjoy the long weekend!
You, too.