Jewish expectations of the messianic era

[Sojourner]

I understand your expectations of the messianic era, but what about the messiah himself?

Ah. So this is where Christianity shines. Because having pushed off the messiah's mission to a "second coming", you are free to find signs of the messiah's identity anyplace that you can. Which is what the overwhelming majority of of Christian proof texts is all about.

Scion of David. Suffering servant. Smitten shepherd. Pierced at the hand and feet. Virgin birth. And so on. With some imagination one can find Jesus in almost every verse in the bible, whether it was put there by the Author or not.

How do you envision him?

As a righteous king who will rule over Israel. An exemplary individual. But nonetheless a human being. His power of prophecy will be awesome, but still second to Moses.

who in your opinion is the cloud-riding dude in Daniel, and where does he come from?

Christians have spiritualized God's promises to Israel, but this verse has to be taken hyper literally? No, I think it's only fair that I can interpret this in a non literal and poetic way.

Thedore Herzl is considered the father of modern Zionism, the idea that the Jewish people deserve a nation state of their own. He wrote a book on the topic and chaired the Fist Zionist Congress in 1897. Because of his idea, after the first world war when the middle east fell under western rule, the Balfour Declaration was made and land set aside to become the Jewish state in the levant. After the second world war the Jewish state became a reality, coming into existence in a single moment after a UN vote (shades of Isaiah 66: Can a country be born in a day or a nation be brought forth in a moment? ) Herzl did not live to see this occur, having died in 1904.

Herzl was not a religious Jew. He was thoroughly secularized and his reasons for wishing for a Jewish state were practical and not religious. He was a journalist at the infamous Dreyfuss trial, where a French-Jewish general was accused of treason, selling the French military plans to the Germans. (He was found guilty and sentenced to a penal colony. He was eventually cleared of all charges.) At the trial, mobs of French outside the courthouse where screaming "kill the Jews". He reasoned that if Jews could not be given a fair shake in liberal France, they needed their own country.

Why am I telling you all this? Because shortly before his death in 1904, Herzl gave an interview. He described something that happened to him when he was just a child. It goes like this-

...one night I had a wonderful dream. The King-Messiah came, a glorious and majestic old man, took me in his arms, and swept me on the wings of the wind. On one of the shining clouds we encountered the figure of Moses ....The Messiah called to Moses: ‘It is for this child that I have prayed!’ And to me he said: ‘Go and declare to the Jews that I shall come soon and perform great wonders and great deeds for my people and for the whole world!

I find this to be amazing. Herzl is describing his own role in the redemption of the Jewish people and the return to their homeland. It was not something he lived to see, but he laid the foundation of what was to happen. And in religious terms, no less. This seems to me to be an obvious incident of prophecy.

Oh, and he describes himself as being swept up in the winds to shining clouds. So maybe he's the cloud riding dude.

How do we know the covenant between God and Abraham and the accomplishments of Moses are not  fictiion--as many hold the story of Job to be? How do we know God spoke to Moses from a burning bush, and that he successfully liberated the Hebrews from Egyptian slavery? Where is the ark of the covenant--if it ever actually existed? How do we know the tanakh is not a carefully crafted fabrication?

We don't. But I choose to believe it to be factual just as I do the NT. Faith in Jesus as the resurrected Son of God is fundamental to Christianity, and I believe the recorded eyewitness testimony about Him as deeply as you believe in the veracity of the tanakh. While you seek to marginalize faith as a factor in your religion, the truth is, you cannot maintain your beliefs without it. Believing in God is in itself an expression of faith. And in the final analysis, my faith is as valid as yours.

[Fenris]

How do we know the covenant between God and Abraham and the accomplishments of Moses are not  fictiion--as many hold the story of Job to be? How do we know God spoke to Moses from a burning bush, and that he successfully liberated the Hebrews from Egyptian slavery? Where is the ark of the covenant--if it ever actually existed? How do we know the tanakh is not a carefully crafted fabrication?

It's not about the bible being real or fake. We both accept it as real.

The bible communicates certain ideas, responsibilities, and promises. You're basically telling me not to believe that the bible means what it says. Not just about the messiah, but about lots of things. And I'm expected to do this "out of faith" that people who started another religion were actually sent by God, even though what they said was in direct contradiction to what God had said in the bible. How could I stand before God in judgement? "Why did you believe that person over Me?"

I only took such liberties in being direct because this is the "non Christian perspective" part of the forum.

I trust you can understand the Jewish perspective on why we're still waiting for the messiah now.

And in the final analysis, my faith is as valid as yours.

I never said otherwise.

[ProDeo]

Or, one of the reasons that Jews don't believe that Jesus was the messiah.

The second half of Ezekiel 37 is an excellent summary of the Jewish expectations of the messianic era.

Let's start at verse 21.

.....

Being as none of this has yet happened, one concludes that we are not living in the messianic era. Although the ingathering of exiles is ongoing, and so one can conclude (as I do) that the process has begun.

Indeed, not fulfilled yet, like the rest of Ezekiel. And there is Zachariah chapter 12-14, not fulfilled yet.

I am interested how all these chapters match with Isaiah 65 -

 17 For, behold, I create new heavens and a new earth: and the former shall not be remembered, nor come into mind. 18 But be ye glad and rejoice for ever [in that] which I create: for, behold, I create Jerusalem a rejoicing, and her people a joy. 19 And I will rejoice in Jerusalem, and joy in my people: and the voice of weeping shall be no more heard in her, nor the voice of crying. 20 There shall be no more thence an infant of days, nor an old man that hath not filled his days: for the child shall die an hundred years old; but the sinner [being] an hundred years old shall be accursed. 21 And they shall build houses, and inhabit [them]; and they shall plant vineyards, and eat the fruit of them. 22 They shall not build, and another inhabit; they shall not plant, and another eat: for as the days of a tree [are] the days of my people, and mine elect shall long enjoy the work of their hands. 23 They shall not labour in vain, nor bring forth for trouble; for they [are] the seed of the blessed of the LORD, and their offspring with them. 24 And it shall come to pass, that before they call, I will answer; and while they are yet speaking, I will hear. 25 The wolf and the lamb shall feed together, and the lion shall eat straw like the bullock: and dust [shall be] the serpent's meat. They shall not hurt nor destroy in all my holy mountain, saith the LORD.

--------

On v17 - I create new heavens and a new earth, is humanity moved to a different (non earth) place?

On v20, people still die?

On v25, matches with God's original (supernatural creation) in the garden, see - And God said, “Behold, I have given you every plant yielding seed that is on the face of all the earth, and every tree with seed in its fruit. You shall have them for food. 30 And to every beast of the earth and to every bird of the heavens and to everything that creeps on the earth, everything that has the breath of life, I have given every green plant for food.”

So, no more flesh for food, that's okay for humans but for a lion (like any other predator) this means death. To me this indicates that v17 means a sort of return to Eden.

Your view?

[Rebecca]

Fenris reads like a nice guy. His posting are interesting and thought provoking.  Where do the Christians here place this passage in their understanding of the Scriptures. 
2Jn 1:7  For many deceivers are entered into the world, who confess not that Jesus Christ is come in the flesh. This is a deceiver and an antichrist.

Ooh, I'm the antichrist! Should I be flattered or insulted?

Ah, life's too short. I'll be flattered. 

I did not say you are the antichrist. Your religion is  unashamedly antichrist no doubt as a Jew who follows Judaism  being flattered is your best option.   My question is to the Christians who post here. Do they take to heart their Scriptures as strongly as you take to yours. ?

[Fenris]

I did not say you are the antichrist. Your religion is  unashamedly antichrist

My religion is not antichrist. Jesus is not a factor in my religion at all.

My question is to the Christians who post here. Do they take to heart their Scriptures as strongly as you take to yours. ?

I am sure that they do.

My question to you is this. Does it mean anything to you that I am as strong in my religious faith as you are in yours? There's no wrong answer, I am just curious.

[Fenris]

Indeed, not fulfilled yet, like the rest of Ezekiel. And there is Zachariah chapter 12-14, not fulfilled yet.

OK, so being "not fulfilled" means it is perfectly reasonable for the Jewish believer to conclude that the messiah has not yet come. No?

I am interested how all these chapters match with Isaiah 65 -


Your view?

Could be poetic. What does a return to Eden look like? I don't know.

[Rebecca]

I did not say you are the antichrist. Your religion is  unashamedly antichrist

My religion is not antichrist. Jesus is not a factor in my religion at all.

My question is to the Christians who post here. Do they take to heart their Scriptures as strongly as you take to yours. ?

I am sure that they do.

My question to you is this. Does it mean anything to you that I am as strong in my religious faith as you are in yours? There's no wrong answer, I am just curious.

It is to be respected, so yes, which sounds kinda crazy cuz you are flat out wrong.    Because of what John penned in John 1& 2 , i would not give you a continuing platform to promote what to me is a antichrist religion. I do find your understanding of the  OT very interesting. Can  we agree Moses looks like Charlton Heston?

[Fenris]

It is to be respected, so yes, which sounds kinda crazy cuz you are flat out wrong.

Maybe you're flat out wrong. Or maybe we're both wrong, and the Muslims or right. Or the Hindus. Or those who worship Cthulu.

   Because of what John penned in John 1& 2 , i would not give you a continuing platform to promote what to me is a antichrist religion.

This is the "non Christian perspective" part of the forum. Nobody is forcing you to read my heresy. Or is it heresy? 

I do find your understanding of the  OT very interesting.

Thank you! If I can inform and entertain, my  day has not been a waste.

Can  we agree Moses looks like Charlton Heston?

Now that was one cool looking Moses.

[Rebecca]

It is to be respected, so yes, which sounds kinda crazy cuz you are flat out wrong.

Maybe you're flat out wrong. Or maybe we're both wrong, and the Muslims or right. Or the Hindus. Or those who worship Cthulu.

   Because of what John penned in John 1& 2 , i would not give you a continuing platform to promote what to me is a antichrist religion.

This is the "non Christian perspective" part of the forum. Nobody is forcing you to read my heresy. Or is it heresy? 

I do find your understanding of the  OT very interesting.

Thank you! If I can inform and entertain, my  day has not been a waste.

Can  we agree Moses looks like Charlton Heston?

Now that was one cool looking Moses.

My beliefs are not heresy no doubt. Those are not my word I quoted the Scriptures.
Yep we get Moses..... and..... Pharaoh Yul Brynner right ?  Movies not often a good Bible teacher. 
I argue with myself about posting here, here meaning any of  the site. Looking for the justification i need for me.

[Fenris]

I argue with myself about posting here, here meaning any of  the site. Looking for the justification i need for me.

Well ignoring me and my heretical views, there are many wise people on this site to learn from. Devout Christians who have great insights to share. Even I have learned many interesting things from them. But at the end of the day it is your choice whether to stay or not.

[Rebecca]

I argue with myself about posting here, here meaning any of  the site. Looking for the justification i need for me.

Well ignoring me and my heretical views, there are many wise people on this site to learn from. Devout Christians who have great insights to share. Even I have learned many interesting things from them. But at the end of the day it is your choice whether to stay or not.

Bare with me my writing skills are lacking....
You say devout Christians.  As a devout Jew , what parts and why would you ignore a passage of Scripture? You see what i am asking is would/should/could a devout/well studied Christian ignore John 1 and 2 ?
Soon i will stop asking you questions i do not mean in any  way to be disrespectful.  I believe folks can disagree with respect.

[Sojourner]

How do we know the covenant between God and Abraham and the accomplishments of Moses are not  fictiion--as many hold the story of Job to be? How do we know God spoke to Moses from a burning bush, and that he successfully liberated the Hebrews from Egyptian slavery? Where is the ark of the covenant--if it ever actually existed? How do we know the tanakh is not a carefully crafted fabrication?

It's not about the bible being real or fake. We both accept it as real.

I was attempting to make the point that the reasons you have for rejecting the veracity of the NT also apply to the tanakh. We know the names ascribed to the books of the tanakh, but the actual authors cannot be verified any more definitively than those of the NT. I mean Deuteronomy, attributed to Moses, includes the account of his death. At the end of the day, faith in the divine inspiration is a common denominator.

The bible communicates certain ideas, responsibilities, and promises. You're basically telling me not to believe that the bible means what it says. Not just about the messiah, but about lots of things. And I'm expected to do this "out of faith" that people who started another religion were actually sent by God, even though what they said was in direct contradiction to what God had said in the bible.

Excuse me? I'm neither seeking to dissuade you from your beliefs nor misrepresent the truth of the Bible. I'm stating what I believe, and for some reason that encroaches upon and violates the sanctity of your religious sensibilities. I've always expressed admiration for your devotion to your faith and strength of your convictions, even when we disagree, so I don't know why I'm being cast in the role of Satan, seeking to corrupt your faith.

How could I stand before God in judgement? "Why did you believe that person over Me?"

Ah, my sinister scheme to alienate you from God is exposed.

I only took such liberties in being direct because this is the "non Christian perspective" part of the forum.

I trust you can understand the Jewish perspective on why we're still waiting for the messiah now.

I understood your perspective prior to the diatribe.

And in the final analysis, my faith is as valid as yours.

I never said otherwise.

I beg to differ. My faith is hardly valid if it's "in direct contradiction to what God had said in the bible." If the contrasting of my beliefs with yours so raises your ire, I'll simply refrain from such theological discussions in the future.

[Fenris]

Bare with me my writing skills are lacking....

Humility is a refined trait. Bless you.

You say devout Christians.  As a devout Jew , what parts and why would you ignore a passage of Scripture? You see what i am asking is would/should/could a devout/well studied Christian ignore John 1 and 2 ?

I am not suggesting that you ignore anything in your bible. But perhaps it could be understood in a different way. Ask the others what they think. Start a discussion specifically on the verses you find important and yet are conflicted about.

Soon i will stop asking you questions i do not mean in any  way to be disrespectful.  I believe folks can disagree with respect.

I don't think you're being disrespectful. And how can you learn without asking questions?

[Fenris]

I was attempting to make the point that the reasons you have for rejecting the veracity of the NT also apply to the tanakh. 

I don't see it that way. The books in the Tanakh don't contradict each other. The books in the NT do, in my humble opinion, contradict what is written in the Tanakh. It's not a small problem. Jews don't reject Christianity because we don't know what's in our own bible. The opposite; we know it too well.

Excuse me? I'm neither seeking to dissuade you from your beliefs nor misrepresent the truth of the Bible. I'm stating what I believe, and for some reason that encroaches upon and violates the sanctity of your religious sensibilities. I've always expressed admiration for your devotion to your faith and strength of your convictions, even when we disagree, so I don't know why I'm being cast in the role of Satan, seeking to corrupt your faith.

I never accused you of being Satan. I think that Christians should go on being good Christians, and leave Jews alone to go on being Jews.

Ah, my sinister scheme to alienate you from God is exposed.

There's no scheme by you. We understand each other very well.

I understood your perspective prior to the diatribe.

Excellent.

I beg to differ. My faith is hardly valid if it's "in direct contradiction to what God had said in the bible." If the contrasting of my beliefs with yours so raises your ire, I'll simply refrain from such theological discussions in the future.

This is the "non Christian perspective", yes? I'm sharing the Jewish perspective on the Christian bible.

[Sojourner]

I never accused you of being Satan. I think that Christians should go on being good Christians, and leave Jews alone to go on being Jews.

Certainly you can understand that Christianity is generally evangelistic by nature. But let me assure you, I think Louis Farrakhan stands a better chance of becoming the Imperial Wizard of the KKK than I would of converting you from Judaism. Perish the thought.