Jewish expectations of the messianic era

[Fenris]

Or, one of the reasons that Jews don't believe that Jesus was the messiah.

The second half of Ezekiel 37 is an excellent summary of the Jewish expectations of the messianic era.

Let's start at verse 21.

So says the Lord God: "Behold I will take the children of Israel from among the nations where they have gone, and I will gather them from every side, and I will bring them to their land. And I will make them into one nation in the land upon the mountains of Israel, and one king shall be to them all as a king; and they shall no longer be two nations, neither shall they be divided into two kingdoms anymore. And they shall no longer defile themselves with their idols, with their detestable things, or with all their transgressions, and I will save them from all their habitations in which they have sinned, and I will purify them, and they shall be to Me as a people, and I will be to them as a God. And My servant David shall be king over them, and one shepherd shall be for them all, and they shall walk in My ordinances and observe My statutes and perform them. And they shall dwell on the land that I have given to My servant, to Jacob, wherein your forefathers lived; and they shall dwell upon it, they and their children and their children's children, forever; and My servant David shall be their prince forever. And I will form a covenant of peace for them, an everlasting covenant shall be with them; and I will establish them and I will multiply them, and I will place My Sanctuary in their midst forever. And My dwelling place shall be over them, and I will be to them for a God, and they shall be to Me as a people. And the nations shall know that I am the Lord, Who sanctifies Israel, when My Sanctuary is in their midst forever."

Verse by verse analysis.

Behold I will take the children of Israel from among the nations where they have gone, and I will gather them from every side, and I will bring them to their land.

The Jewish exiles will be returned to the land of Israel.

And I will make them into one nation in the land upon the mountains of Israel, and one king shall be to them all as a king; and they shall no longer be two nations, neither shall they be divided into two kingdoms anymore.

They will be one, united kingdom. They will no longer be divided into the kingdoms of Israel and Judah.

And they shall no longer defile themselves with their idols, with their detestable things, or with all their transgressions

No more idolatry, no more sinning.

I will save them from all their habitations in which they have sinned, and I will purify them

God will forgive their sins and purify them.

they shall be to Me as a people, and I will be to them as a God.

Self explanatory.

My servant David shall be king over them, and one shepherd shall be for them all

A king from the line of David will be on the throne.

and they shall walk in My ordinances and observe My statutes and perform them

There will be scrupulous observance of biblical law.

And they shall dwell on the land that I have given to My servant, to Jacob, wherein your forefathers lived; and they shall dwell upon it, they and their children and their children's children, forever

They will dwell in the land of Israel forever; there will be no further exiles.

My servant David shall be their prince forever.

There will always be a king from the line of David on the throne.

And I will form a covenant of peace for them, an everlasting covenant shall be with them

There will be peace forever.

I will establish them and I will multiply them

Self explanatory.

I will place My Sanctuary in their midst forever.

There will be a rebuilt temple, never to be destroyed.

And the nations shall know that I am the Lord, Who sanctifies Israel, when My Sanctuary is in their midst forever

The nations will know that God exists and that He sanctifies Israel.


Being as none of this has yet happened, one concludes that we are not living in the messianic era. Although the ingathering of exiles is ongoing, and so one can conclude (as I do) that the process has begun.

[Sojourner]

Smart people like yourself educate themselves about a matter so they know what they're disagreeing with, and I know you have done your due diligence over the years. Regarding the matter at hand, the thing to remember is, for the Christian, God's kingdom was established with the victory of Jesus' cross, but invisibly. The earthly messianic era you describe will transpire after Jesus returns on the day of the Lord, as depicted in the Olivet Discourse--which corresponds with Zechariah 12 and Eezekiel 38 and 39. Jesus' feet will touch the Mount of Olives, splitting it in two.

I believe Israel will be hemmed in between the Mountain and her enemies at that point, and when it splits, it will create a great valley providing safe passage--being similar to the Red Sea event. Descending from heaven with His angels at a time Israel is under assault and outnumbered by a massive coalition of nations, Jesus and the angels will make a short work of the enemies, at which point, Israel will realize who He is. After the great battle, the earthly kingdom will be established, and thus begins the messianic era. As you said earlier, time will reveal all.

[Fenris]

Regarding the matter at hand, the thing to remember is, for the Christian, God's kingdom was established with the victory of Jesus' cross, but invisibly.

And yet the signs described in the bible are all visible. Is it any wonder that we're still waiting?

The earthly messianic era you describe will transpire after Jesus returns on the day of the Lord

Right. The Second Coming. Unfortunately not described in the Jewish bible.

As you said earlier, time will reveal all.

Surely you can understand, though, why Jews are still waiting?

[Sojourner]

And yet the signs described in the bible are all visible. Is it any wonder that we're still waiting?

I understand your perspective and your expectations. Jesus was rejected by most Jews because He did not kick the Romans out of Jerusalem and set up the earthly kingdom when they expected Him to. God does things His way and in His own time.

Right. The Second Coming. Unfortunately not described in the Jewish bible.

I also referred to it as the day of the Lord, which is in the Jewish Bible.

Surely you can understand, though, why Jews are still waiting?

Absolutely. We're still waiting too.

[Fenris]

I understand your perspective and your expectations. Jesus was rejected by most Jews because He did not kick the Romans out of Jerusalem and set up the earthly kingdom when they expected Him to. God does things His way and in His own time.

So... does that mean that Ezekiel 37 will be fulfilled literally?

[Sojourner]

So... does that mean that Ezekiel 37 will be fulfilled literally?

 
Like some Bible scholars, I believe the vision of the dry bones represents a two phase return of Israel. The assembling of the bones and flesh into complete people portrays the physical return of the Jews to the land. That's what we're in the middle of now. The second phase is the spiritual rebirth of the nation that will come later, seen in the wind sending breath into the people. Many of the people in Israel today are secular. I believe when the messiah comes He will bring about a spiritual awakening in all the people. This is seen in Ezekiel 36:26-27, when God puts His Spirit in them:

I will give you a new heart and put a new spirit within you; I will remove your heart of stone and give you a heart of flesh. And I will put My Spirit within you and cause you to walk in My statutes and to carefully observe My ordinances.

[Fenris]

Like some Bible scholars, I believe the vision of the dry bones represents a two phase return of Israel. The assembling of the bones and flesh into complete people portrays the physical return of the Jews to the land. That's what we're in the middle of now.

Possibly. Or it could refer to the resurrection of the dead?

The second phase is the spiritual rebirth of the nation that will come later

And what about the second half of the chapter? The part I quoted and explained, above?

[Sojourner]

Possibly. Or it could refer to the resurrection of the dead?

I believe it refers to both.

And what about the second half of the chapter? The part I quoted and explained, above?

It's all part of the events and conditions pertaining to the messianic era. I believe everything you believe, except with Jesus as the messiah. Time will tell.

[Fenris]

It's all part of the events and conditions pertaining to the messianic era. I believe everything you believe, except with Jesus as the messiah. Time will tell.

Then you must also believe that the Jewish wait for the messiah is not in vain?

We just believe that he'll get it done on the first try. There's no indication of any second coming in the Jewish bible. 

[Sojourner]

Then you must also believe that the Jewish wait for the messiah is not in vain?

We just believe that he'll get it done on the first try. There's no indication of any second coming in the Jewish bible.

Well, references to Jesus as the suffering servant and the smitten shepherd speak to that issue, but those arguments are rejected out of hand. But, no sense in beating on that dead horse any more, is it? 

[Fenris]

Well, references to Jesus as the suffering servant and the smitten shepherd speak to that issue, but those arguments are rejected out of hand.

To go back to the original post, the prophecies of the messiah come with accomplishments that are visible. Exiles gathered. Temple rebuilt. World peace. Universal knowledge of God. None of those things have happened. Jesus saying that his kingdom "is not of this world" is fitting, because he accomplished nothing that can be seen. And so you are forced to find biblical links to his identity (as a suffering servant or smitten shepherd), and all the visible signs are pushed off to a second coming.

[Sojourner]

To go back to the original post, the prophecies of the messiah come with accomplishments that are visible. Exiles gathered. Temple rebuilt. World peace. Universal knowledge of God. None of those things have happened. Jesus saying that his kingdom "is not of this world" is fitting, because he accomplished nothing that can be seen. And so you are forced to find biblical links to his identity (as a suffering servant or smitten shepherd), and all the visible signs are pushed off to a second coming.

I understand your expectations of the messianic era, but what about the messiah himself? How do you envision him? I know he is expecteded to be kind of a Moses and king David rolled into one, and will reign over the nations from Jerusalem, but how do you see him appearing? You said you believe the individual in Daniel seen being brought upon clouds before the ancient of days seems to be the messiah. That doesn't sound like an ordinary human descendant of David. I know Jesus was last seen ascending to God on clouds, but He's not considered a candidate. So who in your opinion is the cloud-riding dude in Daniel, and where does he come from?

[Fenris]

I understand your expectations of the messianic era, but what about the messiah himself?

Ah. So this is where Christianity shines. Because having pushed off the messiah's mission to a "second coming", you are free to find signs of the messiah's identity anyplace that you can. Which is what the overwhelming majority of of Christian proof texts is all about.

Scion of David. Suffering servant. Smitten shepherd. Pierced at the hand and feet. Virgin birth. And so on. With some imagination one can find Jesus in almost every verse in the bible, whether it was put there by the Author or not.

How do you envision him?

As a righteous king who will rule over Israel. An exemplary individual. But nonetheless a human being. His power of prophecy will be awesome, but still second to Moses.

who in your opinion is the cloud-riding dude in Daniel, and where does he come from?

Christians have spiritualized God's promises to Israel, but this verse has to be taken hyper literally? No, I think it's only fair that I can interpret this in a non literal and poetic way.

Thedore Herzl is considered the father of modern Zionism, the idea that the Jewish people deserve a nation state of their own. He wrote a book on the topic and chaired the Fist Zionist Congress in 1897. Because of his idea, after the first world war when the middle east fell under western rule, the Balfour Declaration was made and land set aside to become the Jewish state in the levant. After the second world war the Jewish state became a reality, coming into existence in a single moment after a UN vote (shades of Isaiah 66: Can a country be born in a day or a nation be brought forth in a moment? ) Herzl did not live to see this occur, having died in 1904.

Herzl was not a religious Jew. He was thoroughly secularized and his reasons for wishing for a Jewish state were practical and not religious. He was a journalist at the infamous Dreyfuss trial, where a French-Jewish general was accused of treason, selling the French military plans to the Germans. (He was found guilty and sentenced to a penal colony. He was eventually cleared of all charges.) At the trial, mobs of French outside the courthouse where screaming "kill the Jews". He reasoned that if Jews could not be given a fair shake in liberal France, they needed their own country.

Why am I telling you all this? Because shortly before his death in 1904, Herzl gave an interview. He described something that happened to him when he was just a child. It goes like this-

...one night I had a wonderful dream. The King-Messiah came, a glorious and majestic old man, took me in his arms, and swept me on the wings of the wind. On one of the shining clouds we encountered the figure of Moses ....The Messiah called to Moses: ‘It is for this child that I have prayed!’ And to me he said: ‘Go and declare to the Jews that I shall come soon and perform great wonders and great deeds for my people and for the whole world!

I find this to be amazing. Herzl is describing his own role in the redemption of the Jewish people and the return to their homeland. It was not something he lived to see, but he laid the foundation of what was to happen. And in religious terms, no less. This seems to me to be an obvious incident of prophecy.

Oh, and he describes himself as being swept up in the winds to shining clouds. So maybe he's the cloud riding dude.

[Rebecca]

Fenris reads like a nice guy. His posting are interesting and thought provoking.  Where do the Christians here place this passage in their understanding of the Scriptures. 
2Jn 1:7  For many deceivers are entered into the world, who confess not that Jesus Christ is come in the flesh. This is a deceiver and an antichrist. 
2Jn 1:8  Look to yourselves, that we lose not those things which we have wrought, but that we receive a full reward. 
2Jn 1:9  Whosoever transgresseth, and abideth not in the doctrine of Christ, hath not God. He that abideth in the doctrine of Christ, he hath both the Father and the Son. 
2Jn 1:10  If there come any unto you, and bring not this doctrine, receive him not into your house, neither bid him God speed: 
2Jn 1:11  For he that biddeth him God speed is partaker of his evil deeds. 

[Fenris]

Fenris reads like a nice guy. His posting are interesting and thought provoking.  Where do the Christians here place this passage in their understanding of the Scriptures. 
2Jn 1:7  For many deceivers are entered into the world, who confess not that Jesus Christ is come in the flesh. This is a deceiver and an antichrist.

Ooh, I'm the antichrist! Should I be flattered or insulted?

Ah, life's too short. I'll be flattered.