BibleForums Christian Message Board
Bible Talk => Theology => Topic started by: Meditation on August 09, 2023, 05:22:17 PM
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He referred to Him as the ONLY true God. (John 17:3)
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While the Apostle John elaborates more on this verse in First John:
And we know that the Son of God is come, and hath given us an understanding that we may know Him that is True, and that we are in Him that is Trueeven in His Son Jesus Christ, This is the True God, and eternal life I John 5:20
When Jesus refers to the Father as Greater then Himself, John 14:28, it is easily explained in this statement: But we see Jesus Who was made a little lower than the angels for the suffering of death, crowned with glory and honour; that He by the grace of God should taste death for every man. Hebrew 2:9 By reading Hebrews 2:5-18 we see that Jesus was our High Priest Who was Fully God and Fully Man becoming Mediator, Galatians 3:20; I Timothy 2:5-6 between the Holy Father and sinful man which is what Job cried out for, Job9:32-33.
I would love to quote I John 5:7 here knowing it is authentic but at the same time half of the church question it’s authentically so shall we look at Words (Logos) statement in Isaiah: 16). Come ye near unto Me, hear ye this; I have not spoken in secret, from the beginning; from the time that it was, there Am I: and now the Lord GOD, and His Spirit, hath send Me.
17). Thus saith the LORD, thy Redeemer, and the Holy One of Israel; I Am the LORD thy God which teacheth thee to profit, which leadeth thee by the way that thou shouldest go. Isaiah 48:16-17
While this demonstrates the Trinity/Godhead I somewhat agree with you that Jesus calls the Father His God but at the same disagree. I disagree because it seems you are making the Son much lower than the Father. Jesus for humanity sake has submitted to Father but other than this He is equal to the Father, Philippians 2:6. He did this so that He could become the new beginning of the creation of God, Revelations 3:14b; Colossians 1:15-18 or the Firstborn from the dead, I Corinthians 15:20;23 that we may be fashioned after Him. Paul claims this in Philippians 3:20-21. By becoming our High Priest, Christ Jesus became poor for us so we might be rich in Him, II Corinthians 8:9.
We also know that Jesus never sin, II Corinthians 5:21 but because of all mankind’s sin He took on Himself our sins being High Priest for at His First Coming He bear thee sins but our salvation at His Second Coming, Hebrews 9:28
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He referred to Him as the ONLY true God. (John 17:3)
Jesu's status as only begotten Son is divine.
Whatever the Father is that the Son is also.
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He referred to Him as the ONLY true God. (John 17:3)
Whatever the Father is that the Son is also.
Would you elaborate this?
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He referred to Him as the ONLY true God. (John 17:3)
Here is what Jeremiah 10:10-13 states as to who is "the only true God" at John 17:3: "But Jehovah is truly God. He is the living God and the eternal King. Because of his indignation the earth will quake, and no nations will endure his denunciation. This is what you should say to them:
“The gods that did not make the heavens and the earth all perish from the earth and from under these heavens.” He is the Maker of the earth by his power, the One who established the productive land by his wisdom, and who stretched out the heavens by his understanding. When he makes his voice heard, the waters in the heavens are in turmoil, and he causes clouds to ascend from the ends of the earth. He makes lightning for the rain, and he brings the wind out of his storehouses."
When Jesus, after not having eaten for 40 days, was being tempted by Satan who said to turn some stones into bread, he told him: "It is written (at Deut 8:3): ‘Man must live, not on bread alone, but on every word that comes from Jehovah’s mouth.’”(Matt 4:4)
When Satan tried again by telling Jesus to jump off the temple's battlement or highest point and Jehovah would send angels to rescue him (quoting Ps 91:11, 12, but twisted it), Jesus told him: "Again it is written (at Deut 6:13): ‘You must not put Jehovah your God to the test.’”(Matt 4:7)
And when Satan offered Jesus the biggest bride ever, of all the kingdoms of the world for one act of worship, Jesus replied: "Go away, Satan ! For it is written (at Deut 10:20): ‘It is Jehovah your God you must worship, and it is to him alone you must render sacred service.’(Matt 4:10)
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Is Jesus God?
Simple question.
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Is Jesus God?
Simple question.
No.
He has a God.
His Father is His God and His Father is our God.
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And there we have it boys and girls.
The classic Arian heresy
Thanks for playing. I don’t think Bob will be giving you a consolation door prize
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Is Jesus God?
Simple question.
No.
He has a God.
His Father is His God and His Father is our God.
Rev 22:13 - I [Jesus] am the Alpha and the Omega, the first and the last, the beginning and the end.
John 17:5 - And now, Father, glorify me in your own presence with the glory that I had with you before the world existed.
John 8:58 - Jesus said to them, “Truly, truly, I say to you, before Abraham was, I am.
So, who is this person?
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John 8:58 - Jesus said to them, “Truly, truly, I say to you, before Abraham was, I am.
So, who is this person?
Your reading is out of context, friend.
what Jesus is saying is He existed before Abraham.
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And there we have it boys and girls.
The classic Arian heresy
Thanks for playing. I don’t think Bob will be giving you a consolation door prize
This is what Jesus says:
John 20:17
Jesus said, “Do not hold on to me, for I have not yet ascended to the Father. Go instead to my brothers and tell them, ‘I am ascending to my Father and your Father, to my God and your God.’”
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It is clear that triune god believers skip all of Jesus' simple and clear definitions of Himself and His God and our God.
It is so sad.
You guys need to take heed of Jesus' own word instead of just following your traditional teaching of RCC.
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You guys disregarding too many of Jesus' own warnings and teachings.
It will cost your spiritual life.
blessings.
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Rev 22:13 - I [Jesus] am the Alpha and the Omega, the first and the last, the beginning and the end.
John 17:5 - And now, Father, glorify me in your own presence with the glory that I had with you before the world existed.
John 8:58 - Jesus said to them, “Truly, truly, I say to you, before Abraham was, I am.
So, who is this person?
Your reading is out of context, friend.
what Jesus is saying is He existed before Abraham.
John 8:58 - Jesus said to them, “Truly, truly, I say to you, before Abraham was, I am.
So, who is this person?
Your reading is out of context, friend.
what Jesus is saying is He existed before Abraham.
I put back the verses you snipped. And indeed Jesus existed before Abraham, even before Adam & Eve were created and He was aware of the glorious relationship He had with God the Father. Jesus forgave sins, as the Paraphrases (rightly) said only God can do, He healed the sick. He says about Himself - I [Jesus] am the Alpha and the Omega, the first and the last, the beginning and the end. He is much more than just a Teacher. He was born by the seed of the Holy Spirit, not of a human which made Him the Son of God.
What human can say that?
None...
What is so hard to understand because we by the words of Jesus Himself know that with God all things are possible, God Himself appeared in the human form to us, for He so loved the world and wanted to save the world. God the Father came to us in the human form as Son of God.
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What is so hard to understand
what is lacking is that you simply disregard Jesus saying His Father is His God.
why do you do that?
Isnt Jesus your Lord?
PS:
I got a warning that I am not quoting the Scripture.
I just quoted what Jesus said.
This is what Jesus says:
John 20:17
Jesus said, “Do not hold on to me, for I have not yet ascended to the Father. Go instead to my brothers and tell them, ‘I am ascending to my Father and your Father, to my God and your God.’”
Let's keep the facts straight Mod.
thanks.
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Nothing what I wrote is in disharmony with John 20:17.
And snipping 3 quotes of Jesus plus reasoning without discussing and just repeating your POV isn't very helpful.
When you are hanging out in a Bible forum for 15 years like me you meet a lot of people with quite different views, you only accepting the 4 gospels + Revelation as Scripture is new to me. Perhaps you are willing to tell to which church congregation you belong?
Anyway, every person who follows Jesus is my brother, so blessings.
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It is clear that triune god believers skip all of Jesus' simple and clear definitions of Himself and His God and our God.
It is so sad.
You guys need to take heed of Jesus' own word instead of just following your traditional teaching of RCC.
I don’t think anyone on this forum is Roman Catholic.
You are following a traditional Arian heresy tha denigrates Jesus to being less than God. In doing so, you make Him an imperfect sacrifice, meaning that we all are still in our sin. Read Hebrews.
Oh, sorry. Hebrews isn’t in your Bible.
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Isnt Jesus your Lord?
Yes, Jesus is my Lord and my Savoir.
Ephesians 4:4-5 says there is one Lord...
Is Jesus your Lord or is the Father your Lord?
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Isnt Jesus your Lord?
Yes, Jesus is my Lord and my Savoir.
Ephesians 4:4-5 says there is one Lord...
Is Jesus your Lord or is the Father your Lord?
then why don't you take heed of His word of "His God is His Father"?
God is one. According to Him Jesus is not God since His Father is God.
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that's no excuse to dismiss what Jesus says about His and His Father's identities.
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Anyway, every person who follows Jesus is my brother, so blessings.
I also follow Jesus and take heed of ALL His word.
Do you call me your brethren too?
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then why don't you take heed of His word of "His God is His Father"?
I see what you did there...Can you back up this accusation with what I've said or are you projecting to what you think I'll say later in this conversation?
Let's be honest and let each other speak before jumping to accusations. There is no need to project what you think I'll say. If you think I may have a particular belief, ask and I'll do my best to answer.
I'm not trying to win. I'm engaging with the sincere belief of speaking the truth. I ask you do the same, or I will quickly lose respect of your words.
I'll start by stating that your assertion in this instance is correct as I do not agree that "His God is His Father".
Now as has been asked. Please provide scripture for that statement.
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Isnt Jesus your Lord?
Yes, Jesus is my Lord and my Savoir.
Ephesians 4:4-5 says there is one Lord...
Is Jesus your Lord or is the Father your Lord?
You still have not answered this question plainly. Can you do so and provide scripture for your answer?
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Isnt Jesus your Lord?
Yes, Jesus is my Lord and my Savoir.
Ephesians 4:4-5 says there is one Lord...
Is Jesus your Lord or is the Father your Lord?
First, why dont you refute my quote of Jesus?
You guys have been skipping over and over.
You still have not answered this question plainly. Can you do so and provide scripture for your answer?
First, why dont you refute my quote of Jesus?
You guys have been skipping over and over.
This is what have been skipping:
This is what Jesus says:
John 20:17
Jesus said, “Do not hold on to me, for I have not yet ascended to the Father. Go instead to my brothers and tell them, ‘I am ascending to my Father and your Father, to my God and your God.’”
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First, why dont you refute my quote of Jesus?
You guys have been skipping over and over.
You still have not answered this question plainly. Can you do so and provide scripture for your answer?
You guys have been skipping over and over.
This is what have been skipping:
This is what Jesus says:
John 20:17
Jesus said, “Do not hold on to me, for I have not yet ascended to the Father. Go instead to my brothers and tell them, ‘I am ascending to my Father and your Father, to my God and your God.’”
I look at this with the whole of scripture in mind and not a single proof text. In the whole of scripture, Jesus often referred to the Father in the 3rd person, so this doesn’t seem out of the ordinary. Jesus in His humanity often deferred to the Father’s will as well. It seems normal in the whole of scripture of the Godhead to refer in human language in this manner. This is explained clearly in Philippians 2:5-11.
Philippians 2:5 In your relationships with one another, have the same mindset as Christ Jesus:
6 Who, being in very nature God,
did not consider equality with God something to be used to his own advantage;
7 rather, he made himself nothing
by taking the very nature of a servant,
being made in human likeness.
8 And being found in appearance as a man,
he humbled himself
by becoming obedient to death—
even death on a cross!
9 Therefore God exalted him to the highest place
and gave him the name that is above every name,
10 that at the name of Jesus every knee should bow,
in heaven and on earth and under the earth,
11 and every tongue acknowledge that Jesus Christ is Lord,
to the glory of God the Father.
So that brings me back to my first, still unanswered question to you.
Is Jesus your Lord or is the Father your Lord?
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So that brings me back to my first, still unanswered question to you.
Is Jesus your Lord or is the Father your Lord?
Jesus' Father is my God and Jesus is my Lord.
You dont seem to understand the word "Lord".
You still cannot refute Jesus' word of "His Father is His God".
You guys dancing around too much, friend.
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And you worship red letter and ignore the whole of scripture
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And you worship red letter and ignore the whole of scripture
Jesus is the Lord and you guys disregarding His own word.
Jesus' word reflects the whole of God's word.
You guys take heed of ALL His word.
Jesus is the Lord.
God and Moses said to listen to Jesus' word.
You dont seem to know that either.
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Jesus' Father is my God and Jesus is my Lord.[/b]
You dont seem to understand the word "Lord".
You still cannot refute Jesus' word of "His Father is His God".
Ok, let’s look at some more scripture to form a basis of “Lord” as can be found in the Bible.
John the Baptist was preparing the way of the Lord.
Matt 3:3
This is he who was spoken of through the prophet Isaiah:
“A voice of one calling in the wilderness,
‘Prepare the way for the Lord,
make straight paths for him.
As can be seen John was referring to Jesus.
And here Jesus is referred to as Lord.
1 Cor 1:9
God is faithful, who has called you into fellowship with his Son, Jesus Christ our Lord.
Jesus is Lord and on this we agree. The Bible is clear that there is one Lord (Eph 4:5), as I’ve already shared.
Is The Father Lord? The Bible states He is.
Exodus 20:2
“I am the LORD your God, who brought you out of Egypt, out of the land of slavery.
Isaiah 41:13
For I am the Lord your God
who takes hold of your right hand
and says to you, Do not fear;
I will help you.
Deut 6:4
Hear, O Israel: The Lord our God, the Lord is one.
Notice that Lord and God are referred to together here.
Whose name do we call on to be saved?
Joel 2:32
And everyone who calls
on the name of the Lord will be saved;
for on Mount Zion and in Jerusalem
there will be deliverance,
as the Lord has said,
even among the survivors
whom the Lord calls.
Look at Isaiah 42:8
“I am the Lord; that is my name!
I will not yield my glory to another
or my praise to idols.
Look Who is speaking here. God does not share the title of Lord.
Jesus claimed the title I Am, He was worshipped, called Lord, & is our savior because…
Philippians 2:6-8
He was the very nature of God
And in Col 2:9
the fullness of deity dwells in Him
Just as a note I won't be able to answer for a while.
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Jesus' Father is my God and Jesus is my Lord.[/b]
You dont seem to understand the word "Lord".
You still cannot refute Jesus' word of "His Father is His God".
Ok, let’s look at some more scripture to form a basis of “Lord” as can be found in the Bible.
John the Baptist was preparing the way of the Lord.
Matt 3:3
This is he who was spoken of through the prophet Isaiah:
“A voice of one calling in the wilderness,
‘Prepare the way for the Lord,
make straight paths for him.
As can be seen John was referring to Jesus.
And here Jesus is referred to as Lord.
1 Cor 1:9
God is faithful, who has called you into fellowship with his Son, Jesus Christ our Lord.
Jesus is Lord and on this we agree. The Bible is clear that there is one Lord (Eph 4:5), as I’ve already shared.
Is The Father Lord? The Bible states He is.
Exodus 20:2
“I am the LORD your God, who brought you out of Egypt, out of the land of slavery.
Isaiah 41:13
For I am the Lord your God
who takes hold of your right hand
and says to you, Do not fear;
I will help you.
Deut 6:4
Hear, O Israel: The Lord our God, the Lord is one.
Notice that Lord and God are referred to together here.
Whose name do we call on to be saved?
Joel 2:32
And everyone who calls
on the name of the Lord will be saved;
for on Mount Zion and in Jerusalem
there will be deliverance,
as the Lord has said,
even among the survivors
whom the Lord calls.
Look at Isaiah 42:8
“I am the Lord; that is my name!
I will not yield my glory to another
or my praise to idols.
Look Who is speaking here. God does not share the title of Lord.
Jesus claimed the title I Am, He was worshipped, called Lord, & is our savior because…
Philippians 2:6-8
He was the very nature of God
And in Col 2:9
the fullness of deity dwells in Him
Just as a note I won't be able to answer for a while.
All this lengthy post yet still dancing around and cannot refute what I quoted about Jesus' word.
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And this is what Moses says about Jesus which you dont take heed:
Deuteronomy 18:15
New International Version
The Prophet
[/b]Deuteronomy 18:15
New International Version
15 The Lord your God will raise up for you a prophet like me from among you, from your fellow Israelites. You must listen to him.
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You still cannot refute Jesus' word of "His Father is His God".
You guys dancing around too much, friend.
God is Jesus' God. But He is also God because He is the Word of God in human form. He is the Son of God because God's Spirit caused His conception in Mary's womb, but He is God in the sense of being the Word incarnate. The Apostle John opens his Gospel presenting Jesus as He was before He was Jesus. We're told that the Word was both with God and was God from eternity (John 1:1-3), and that the Word was robed in humanity, and dwelled among men (John 1:14).
As you read these words, consider that they are my thoughts--invisible, unknown and unknowable to you. Yet, they are given substance and made manifest by my words. They are still my thoughts, but represented in a way you can know them. In a similar way, God is an invisible Spirit, unknown and unknowable to us until He manifests and reveals Himself by means of His Word. In the opening verses of Genesis, He was displeased with the watery darkness in which the earth was submerged. It was His will that there be light. He sent forth His word, and there was light.
In a similar way, Abraham was steeped in a culture of dark paganism and idolatry and the true Almighty was unknown until God revealed Himself to Abraham by speaking to Him. In the midst of the spiritual darkness, God enlightened the mind of a man by sending forth His word to reveal Himself, initiating the beginning of His work of man's redemption. This principle is beautifully depicted by the prophet Isaiah:
For My thoughts are not your thoughts, neither are your ways My ways, declares the LORD. For as the heavens are higher than the earth, so My ways are higher than your ways and My thoughts than your thoughts. For just as rain and snow fall from heaven and do not return without watering the earth, making it bud and sprout, and providing seed to sow and food to eat, so My word that proceeds from My mouth will not return to Me empty, but it will accomplish what I please, and it will prosper where I send it. (Isaiah 55:8-11)
God's manifests Himself and reveals His mind, will and purpose by means of His divine word, and Jesus is the human incarnation of that word. That's why Paul calls Him "the image of the invisible God." And that's why Jesus said that to see Him was to see the Father (John 14:9). Jesus spoke of being one with God even before the world existed (John 14:5), and of being sent forth from God to accomplish His will (John 4:34; 8:42; 16;27-28; 17:8-9). Thus, Jesus, as the Word of God incarnate, is declared to have proceeded forth from God to fulfill His purpose in the same manner described by Isaiah. Moreover, He returned to Him not void, but having fully accomplished the purpose for which He was sent by means of His sacrificial death and resurrection.
So yes, God is the God and Father of Jesus. But Jesus is God as the divine Word incarnate; now and forever a temple of glorified humanity in whom dwells the Spirit of God. He has returned to the Father as depicted in Daniel 7:13, and will one day return to establish His earthly kingdom. Those who dwell in that kingdom will not see the invisible God, but will behold upon the throne the Word that reveals and manifests Him, as the king of glory.
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If one claims that Jesus is not God, then the sacrifice of Jesus is not sufficient to forgive sin.
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If one claims that Jesus is not God, then the sacrifice of Jesus is not sufficient to forgive sin.
This is a strange claim.
The Bible does not claim Jesus has to be God to be Christ.
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You still cannot refute Jesus' word of "His Father is His God".
You guys dancing around too much, friend.
God is Jesus' God. But He is also God because He is the Word of God in human form. He is the Son of God because God's Spirit caused His conception in Mary's womb, but He is God in the sense of being the Word incarnate. The Apostle John opens his Gospel presenting Jesus as He was before He was Jesus. We're told that the Word was both with God and was God from eternity (John 1:1-3), and that the Word was robed in humanity, and dwelled among men (John 1:14).
As you read these words, consider that they are my thoughts--invisible, unknown and unknowable to you. Yet, they are given substance and made manifest by my words. They are still my thoughts, but represented in a way you can know them. In a similar way, God is an invisible Spirit, unknown and unknowable to us until He manifests and reveals Himself by means of His Word. In the opening verses of Genesis, He was displeased with the watery darkness in which the earth was submerged. It was His will that there be light. He sent forth His word, and there was light.
In a similar way, Abraham was steeped in a culture of dark paganism and idolatry and the true Almighty was unknown until God revealed Himself to Abraham by speaking to Him. In the midst of the spiritual darkness, God enlightened the mind of a man by sending forth His word to reveal Himself, initiating the beginning of His work of man's redemption. This principle is beautifully depicted by the prophet Isaiah:
For My thoughts are not your thoughts, neither are your ways My ways, declares the LORD. For as the heavens are higher than the earth, so My ways are higher than your ways and My thoughts than your thoughts. For just as rain and snow fall from heaven and do not return without watering the earth, making it bud and sprout, and providing seed to sow and food to eat, so My word that proceeds from My mouth will not return to Me empty, but it will accomplish what I please, and it will prosper where I send it. (Isaiah 55:8-11)
God's manifests Himself and reveals His mind, will and purpose by means of His divine word, and Jesus is the human incarnation of that word. That's why Paul calls Him "the image of the invisible God." And that's why Jesus said that to see Him was to see the Father (John 14:9). Jesus spoke of being one with God even before the world existed (John 14:5), and of being sent forth from God to accomplish His will (John 4:34; 8:42; 16;27-28; 17:8-9). Thus, Jesus, as the Word of God incarnate, is declared to have proceeded forth from God to fulfill His purpose in the same manner described by Isaiah. Moreover, He returned to Him not void, but having fully accomplished the purpose for which He was sent by means of His sacrificial death and resurrection.
So yes, God is the God and Father of Jesus. But Jesus is God as the divine Word incarnate; now and forever a temple of glorified humanity in whom dwells the Spirit of God. He has returned to the Father as depicted in Daniel 7:13, and will one day return to establish His earthly kingdom. Those who dwell in that kingdom will not see the invisible God, but will behold upon the throne the Word that reveals and manifests Him, as the king of glory.
Another lengthy claim without Jesus' word.
And still dancing around simple Truth.
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If one claims that Jesus is not God, then the sacrifice of Jesus is not sufficient to forgive sin.
This is a strange claim.
The Bible does not claim Jesus has to be God to be Christ.
Hebrews does
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Another lengthy claim without Jesus' word.
And still dancing around simple Truth.
I explained how God is Jesus' God, using the truth of scripture, and you still call that dancing around the truth? I don't think you recognize truth outside of your own version of it. You're probably a Jehovah's Witness, which would explain your narrow-minded perspective.
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If one claims that Jesus is not God, then the sacrifice of Jesus is not sufficient to forgive sin.
Exactly.
We know what the end of the devil will be. I sometimes wonder why God did not send him to that place immediately when he rebelled. Instead God gave him space to terrorize us. And I wonder why. Could it be that the devil accused God of being loveless, unmerciful, not able to forgive? Per Rev 12:10 we know he is good in that.
There is no good reason why God should have justified / defended Himself against the accusations and throw the devil into hell immediately. But maybe God decided otherwise and said to the heavenly audience something like - I will show you that I am not loveless, that I am merciful, that I forgive sins, I will give the most precious I have (a part of Myself) as a sacrifice that will destroy all your accusations and then you go to hell.
Not Scripture, I know.
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Isnt Jesus your Lord?
Yes, Jesus is my Lord and my Savoir.
Ephesians 4:4-5 says there is one Lord...
Is Jesus your Lord or is the Father your Lord?
First, why dont you refute my quote of Jesus?
You guys have been skipping over and over.
You still have not answered this question plainly. Can you do so and provide scripture for your answer?
First, why dont you refute my quote of Jesus?
You guys have been skipping over and over.
This is what have been skipping:
This is what Jesus says:
John 20:17
Jesus said, “Do not hold on to me, for I have not yet ascended to the Father. Go instead to my brothers and tell them, ‘I am ascending to my Father and your Father, to my God and your God.’”
No one has been skipping over John 20:17. Put the verse in its fuller context, keep in mind the incarnational claims of the doctrine of the Trinity, pay attention to about ~1,800 years of discussion over the verse, and you'll discover quite curiously that it's not a problem for Trinitarian doctrine. Crazy I know.
Humans have a God? Jesus here is speaking as a human? Interesting.
Is this suggested reading of the verse consonant with the rest of New Testament witness regarding the claims of Jesus? No? Interesting.
You see, you need to explain why you think John 20:17 is a problem for Trinitarian doctrine. You do understand the doctrine you disagree with, don't you?
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You see, you need to explain why you think John 20:17 is a problem for Trinitarian doctrine. You do understand the doctrine you disagree with, don't you?
It is a problem because you dismiss Jesus' simple Truth.
You are dismissing the fact that Jesus is the Lord of all His followers.
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I explained how God is Jesus' God, using the truth of scripture,
Your explanation is so out of context with Jesus' own word.
that's why I say you guys have been dancing around Jesus' simple Truth.
You guys are stuck with His simple word.
You can run but you cannot hide, friend.
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And this is what Moses says about Jesus which you dont take heed:
15 The Lord your God will raise up for you a prophet like me from among you, from your fellow Israelites. You must listen to him.
Why are you quoting one verse? What's the context here?
Let's look at the previous chapter. (Radical concept, I know.) God is laying the groundwork for a just and holy society. What are the segments of this society? Well, let's see:
Deuteronomy 17 talks about courts of law in verses 8 to 13.
Next it discusses the king in verses 14 to 20.
Then chapter 18 talks about the priests in verses 1 to 8.
And finally we have the prophet in verses 14 to 22.
All these are parts of the functioning biblical society in ancient Israel.
So to revisit the point, verse 15 isn't talking about "a" prophet. It's talking about the role of the prophet in biblical society. And there were many such prophets, just as there were many kings, priests, and courts.
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Saying a falsehood 12 times in a row does not make your falsehood twelve times less false
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Your explanation is so out of context with Jesus' own word.[/b]
that's why I say you guys have been dancing around Jesus' simple Truth.
You guys are stuck with His simple word.
You can run but you cannot hide, friend.
Nobody is dancing around the truth but you, fella. I won't be wasting any more time on you and your JW mindset.
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All this lengthy post yet still dancing around and cannot refute what I quoted about Jesus' word.
No one is dancing.
You've been given plenty of scriptural evidence and explanation that you just quickly dismissed.
This is a Bible discussion forum, not meshak's authorized version discussion forum. I won't limit my understanding of God's Holy Word to your narrowed viewpoint.
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No one is dancing.
You've been given plenty of scriptural evidence
I know very well you have been showing plenty of scriptures and all of them are unrelated to what I show you about what Jesus Jesus says.
You can bring up all those kinds of unrelated verses until the cows come home.
you can run but you cannot hide it, friend.
I will show you another one that you cannot rebuttal and have been dismissing.
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Jesus answered:
28 One of the teachers of the law came and heard them debating. Noticing that Jesus had given them a good answer, he asked him, “Of all the commandments, which is the most important?”
29 “The most important one,” answered Jesus, “is this: ‘Hear, O Israel: The Lord our God, the Lord is one.[e] 30 Love the Lord your God with all your heart and with all your soul and with all your mind and with all your strength.’[f]
Mark 12:28-30.
You see, Jesus clearly states that God is one.
Yet you guys changed to God is triune. and Jesus is God.
If you dismiss Lord's the most important commandment, there is no salvation because Jesus is the Lord. His commandments go, not any man-made amendments.
You cannot pass those verses and that's the reason why you guys have been dancing around over and over.
I pray that you will not close this thread or ban me because you cannot refute Jesus' simple and clear statement.
blessings.
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Nothing you have said refutes the biblical doctrine of the Trinity.
You deny the deity of Jesus.
Which means that you remain in your sin, captive to man’s religion.
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Trinity also means that God is one.
You have been taught a lie and you will follow that lie straight into hell
How do you know that “the words of Jesus” that you hold to be supreme to the rest for God’s Word were even spoken by Jesus!?
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Trinity also means that God is one.
Here you go, making up your own doctrine without Jesus' word.
so sad.
I will not take the bait to switch my point.
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What church do you belong to?
What elders hold you accountable?
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What church do you belong to?
What elders hold you accountable?
I am accountable to God and Jesus, not any man or organization.
here is the verse you have been dismissing telling me that I dont quote the scripture:
Matthew 7:13-14
The Narrow and Wide Gates
“Enter through the narrow gate. For wide is the gate and broad is the road that leads to destruction, and many enter through it. But small is the gate and narrow the road that leads to life, and only a few find it.
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How do you know Jesus said that?
He didn’t write it down.
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You see, you need to explain why you think John 20:17 is a problem for Trinitarian doctrine. You do understand the doctrine you disagree with, don't you?
It is a problem because you dismiss Jesus' simple Truth.
You are dismissing the fact that Jesus is the Lord of all His followers.
No, that verse is perfectly situated in Trinitarian doctrine. Are you going to reply to the questions I asked or drone on in further "you are ignoring", "you are dismissing", nonsense?
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How do you know Jesus said that?
He didn’t write it down.
I referenced it.
You dont believe what Jesus said in the NT?
All His words are written in the NT, Matthew, Mark, Luke, John, and the Revelation.
You dont seem to be reading the NT.
So sad.
Without knowing what Jesus says you cannot obtain salvation, friend.
Jesus says "I am the way, and the Truth and the life. No one comes to the Father except through Me".
Since you dont seem to be reading Jesus' word, I will bring the reference. So you don't claim I don't quote the scripture.
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How do you know Jesus said that?
He didn’t write it down.
Here is the scripture that Jesus says:
John 14:6
Jesus answered, “I am the way and the truth and the life. No one comes to the Father except through me.
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No, that verse is perfectly situated in Trinitarian doctrine.
You continually misuse the verse to suit your man-made doctrine.
You still cannot refute Jessus' simple and clear statement of His and His Father's identity.
Not even a good try.
It is getting old, friend.
Your claims are all dismissing Jesus' own word.
I will repeat since you think you can get away with your tactics.
Jesus says God is one and His Father is Jesus' God and our God.
Jesus does not say God is triune as you guys are continually fighting against.
I will bring the verse of what Jesus says so you don't claim I don't quote the verses.
You have been claiming I don't quote the verses which is so dishonest.
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You see, you need to explain why you think John 20:17 is a problem for Trinitarian doctrine. You do understand the doctrine you disagree with, don't you?
It is a problem because you dismiss Jesus' simple Truth.
You are dismissing the fact that Jesus is the Lord of all His followers.
No, that verse is perfectly situated in Trinitarian doctrine. Are you going to reply to the questions I asked or drone on in further "you are ignoring", "you are dismissing", nonsense?
Here is what Jesus says which you have been skipping over and over and over:
John 20:17
Jesus said, “Do not hold on to me, for I have not yet ascended to the Father. Go instead to my brothers and tell them, ‘I am ascending to my Father and your Father, to my God and your God.’”
Jesus clearly says His Father is His God.
God is one so Jesus cannot be God.
It is so clear that your claims are so distorted.
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No, that verse is perfectly situated in Trinitarian doctrine.
You continually misuse the verse to suit your man-made doctrine.
You still cannot refute Jessus' simple and clear statement of His and His Father's identity.
Not even a good try.
It is getting old, friend.
Your claims are all dismissing Jesus' own word.
I will repeat since you think you can get away with your tactics.
Jesus says God is one and His Father is Jesus' God and our God.
Jesus does not say God is triune as you guys are continually fighting against.
I will bring the verse of what Jesus says so you don't claim I don't quote the verses.
You have been claiming I don't quote the verses which is so dishonest.
Again, I ask:
- How do these verses defeat the doctrine of the Trinity (while being consonant with the rest of Scripture)?
- Do you understand the doctrine you're opposing? It seems like you don't.
It seems like you don't because the doctrine of the Trinity does not teach tritheism and thus maintains that God is one. I'm sure you've heard it before, "One God in three persons"?
You see, you need to explain why you think John 20:17 is a problem for Trinitarian doctrine. You do understand the doctrine you disagree with, don't you?
It is a problem because you dismiss Jesus' simple Truth.
You are dismissing the fact that Jesus is the Lord of all His followers.
No, that verse is perfectly situated in Trinitarian doctrine. Are you going to reply to the questions I asked or drone on in further "you are ignoring", "you are dismissing", nonsense?
Here is what Jesus says which you have been skipping over and over and over:
John 20:17
Jesus said, “Do not hold on to me, for I have not yet ascended to the Father. Go instead to my brothers and tell them, ‘I am ascending to my Father and your Father, to my God and your God.’”
Jesus clearly says His Father is His God.
God is one so Jesus cannot be God.
It is so clear that your claims are so distorted.
Again, this is one verse theology where I'm asking for consonance with the rest of Scripture (e.g. John 8 ).
And again, it's abundantly clear that you have no idea what the doctrine of the Trinity actually says. Of course God is one, but what does that have to do with claims concerning incarnation, hypostases, the economy of the Godhead, etc.?
Keep up with the "distorted claims" garbage and you'll find you got rid of yourself.
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Again, I ask:
- How do these verses defeat the doctrine of the Trinity (while being consonant with the rest of Scripture)?
- Do you understand the doctrine you're opposing? It seems like you don't.
I am not interested in what Jesus did not teach.
there is no such thing as the doctrine of the trinity in God's word.
So your teachings are meaningless.
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It seems like you don't because the doctrine of the Trinity does not teach tritheism and thus maintains that God is one. I'm sure you've heard it before, "One God in three persons"?
Since Revelation is Scripture for him maybe you should ask him for -
Rev 5:6 - And between the throne and the four living creatures and among the elders I saw a Lamb standing, as though it had been slain, with seven horns and with seven eyes, which are the seven spirits of God sent out into all the earth.
Not three, but seven [!]
As if the Trinity doctrine is not complicated enough....
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How do you know Jesus said that?
He didn’t write it down.
Here is the scripture that Jesus says:
John 14:6
Jesus answered, “I am the way and the truth and the life. No one comes to the Father except through me.
Everybody here believes that.
The questions for you is, which human can say this?
Answer, none.
Agree?
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Everybody here believes that.
The questions for you is, which human can say this?
Answer, none.
Agree?
No, I dont agree with your assessment at all.
I am not so concerned about how humans accept Jesus' word.
I accept all of Jesus' word.
Can you say the same?
I dont think so.
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How do you know Jesus said that?
He didn’t write it down.
Here is the scripture that Jesus says:
John 14:6
Jesus answered, “I am the way and the truth and the life. No one comes to the Father except through me.
Everybody here believes that.
The questions for you is, which human can say this?
Answer, none.
Agree?
You guys don't accept Jesus' own word and make up your own.
IOW, you even correct Jesus' own word.
that will not go well with you, friend.
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Everybody here believes that.
The questions for you is, which human can say this?
Answer, none.
Agree?
No, I dont agree with your assessment at all.
I am not so concerned about how humans accept Jesus' word.
I accept all of Jesus' word.
Can you say the same?
I dont think so.
John 14:6
Jesus answered, “I am the way and the truth and the life. No one comes to the Father except through me.
So for you a mere human said that.
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How do you know Jesus said that?
He didn’t write it down.
Here is the scripture that Jesus says:
John 14:6
Jesus answered, “I am the way and the truth and the life. No one comes to the Father except through me.
Everybody here believes that.
The questions for you is, which human can say this?
Answer, none.
Agree?
You guys don't accept Jesus' own word and make up your own.
IOW, you even correct Jesus' own word.
I assume you do realize the same counts for you.
And I am not you guys :)
that will not go well with you, friend.
Shall we leave judgement to the Person in charge?
Thank you.
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Shall we leave judgement to the Person in charge?
Thank you.
It is not my judgment.
I am nothing.
It is what Jesus teaches that counts which you don't seem to take heed of.
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Meshak, is a discussion possible if you approach it, having already decided that you're the only one listening to Jesus? No it's not, so cut it out or I'll cut it out for you.
You have yet to answer my questions, and I will take further dodging as an implicit statement that you aren't actually interested in engaging in discussion, but are here only to accuse and satisfy your own sense of "oh poor me".
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Oh nevermind, he pushed it in PM so I've helped him leave.
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Shall we leave judgement to the Person in charge?
Thank you.
It is not my judgment.
You said - that will not go well with you, friend.
If it is not your judgement, then whose judgement is it?
It is what Jesus teaches that counts which you don't seem to take heed of.
And there you go again, judging.
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Oh nevermind, he pushed it in PM so I've helped him leave.
I don't know how it lasted as long as it did. I've dealt with holier-than-thou types before, but that dude takes the prize.
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I don't know how it lasted as long as it did. I've dealt with holier-than-thou types before, but that dude takes the prize.
Self-righteous types are the worst.
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This entire exchange demonstrates the need for biblical literacy and not believing that the Bible is a magic book.
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Oh nevermind, he pushed it in PM so I've helped him leave.
I don't know how it lasted as long as it did. I've dealt with holier-than-thou types before, but that dude takes the prize.
I don't like banning people, so he got his chances and now :shrug:
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Oh nevermind, he pushed it in PM so I've helped him leave.
I don't know how it lasted as long as it did. I've dealt with holier-than-thou types before, but that dude takes the prize.
I don't like banning people, so he got his chances and now :shrug:
Yeah, I get that. It was just taxing to see so many fighting so tenaciously to pry open a locked mind.
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I don't know how it lasted as long as it did. I've dealt with holier-than-thou types before, but that dude takes the prize.
Self-righteous types are the worst.
Yeah, ideally, we should humbly acknowledge our inability to measure up to God's standards of holiness on our own merits--not present ourselves as being the standard.
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He referred to Him as the ONLY true God. (John 17:3)
The Joanne context 1:
Jesus answered, "I have already told you, and you did not believe me. The proof is the works I do in the name of my Father. But you do not believe me because you are not my sheep. My sheep hear my voice; I know them, and they follow me. I give them eternal life, and they will never perish. No one can snatch them from my hand, for my Father has given them to me, and he is more powerful than all. No one can snatch them from my Father's hand. The Father and I are one." Once again, the Jewish leaders picked up stones to stone him. Jesus said, "By my Father's direction, I have done many good works. For which of these works do you want to stone me?" They replied, "We are not going to stone you for any good work, but for blasphemy. You, a mere man, claim to be God!" New Transforming Version (NVT) © Mundo Cristão - All rights reserved.
If we consider the existence of an ellipsis, the omission of a term in the sentence that is easily understood after the phrase "we are one," this term must be in accordance with the basic grammatical rules of the Greek language, that is, it will be in the singular and in the neuter gender, and the word "name" is the only word in the context in question that satisfies the concordance requirements.
It will be considered that when analyzing the words of the Lord Jesus in parallel, all other theologies are secondary; the Pauline theology should complement, but without distorting the meaning of Jesus' words. Thus, the phrase "The Father and I are one" in the Joanne context, the apostolic autograph 2, is crucial for the understanding of the Doctrine of Unity, as already explained. The word "one" in the phrase in question in Greek is in the neuter gender, so they are not one person, and indeed, Jesus did not claim to be the Father, nor are they a "thing." On this, we will focus on what is already effectively revealed, not on what they may be.
When he says that the Father is in Jesus and Jesus is in the Father 3, as the Son of God 4 in particular 5, in particular, He is God 6, so He is prevented from doing something different from the Father 7, nor can He be less honored 8 and loved 9 than the Father, as well as being fully on the Father's throne 10. Jesus was the only one, and also the first, who, living in the flesh, was uniquely inside the Father 11; here those who sought 12 and did not achieve being 13 inside the first condition of humanity are excluded. Created within the image of God without corruption 14, including even those who were according to God's heart, like Kings David and Ezekiel, who had a greater permanence within God 15. A continuation of staying in God was necessary 16, which reached the whole nation 17. The prophetic project was consummated in the Name given to Jesus 18, for when He prophesied that as a Father 19, He would come in the quality of the Spirit, the Holy Spirit, without losing the previous quality of Father in relation to the children, He revealed the Unity 20 in the church, and it is through the Name of Jesus that we have Unity with God 21. Therefore, God also exalted Jesus, the one called the Logos of God 22, sovereignly, and gave Him a Name that is above every name, which no one knows except Himself 23, and by this Name of the Father, Jesus and the Father are one 24. So that at the Name given to Jesus, every knee should bow, in heaven, on earth, and under the earth, and every tongue should confess that Jesus Christ is Lord, to the glory of God the Father 25.
The interpretation of a union of purposes for the prayer "we are one" is a forced understanding of the Words of Jesus. He literally said, "I am inside God, and I and the Father are one, we are relatives in particular!" 26 The Jews had no doubt that He was claiming to be God 27. Another similar and significant case is Pharaoh's dreams 28, which are two, but their substance is one, one metaphysical essence. "One" does not necessarily mean in this context one dream, as indeed two dream manifestations are understood. This extends to the argument that it is not one person, but two or more, with substantial unity. It is necessary to observe that the prayer "we are one" in the Joanne context, in Aramaic, is also found in the text that narrates Pharaoh's dreams, as well as in the Greek and Hebrew prayers, being the golden text of the article. Another example is that of Adam and Eve, both were one flesh, whether they had a son or more, they were husband and wife, male and female, one flesh. Now, in the case of the pastoral prophecy, in which David represents pastoral unity 29 together with the Father. 30 Following this line of thought, we come to the Church, which is made up of many members, who are one body. The Father and I are one Name, Jesus said without a doubt. Similarly, initially the three persons were one God. In the Scriptures, God is complex, the manifestation of the one in Flesh is truly a mystery.31 As the tabernacled Logos, He is also in the heavens. 32
References in order of appearance
1) John 10:25-33
2) John 21:20,24
3) John 10:38
4) John 10:36
5) 2 Samuel 7:14 LXX, John 5:18
6) Philippians 2:6
7) John 5:19
8 ) John 5:23
9) 1 John 5:1
10) Acts 2:30
11) John 10:38; 14:10
12) 2 Samuel 19:08 LXX, 1 Kings 1:17,30; 2:30, Psalms 17:30 LXX, 18:29 HEB; 44:9 HEB, 55:5 LXX, 56:5 HEB; 107:14 LXX, 108:13 HEB; Hosea 1:7; Habakkuk 3:18, Zechariah 12:5
13) Romans 11:7
14) Genesis 9:6
15) 1 Samuel 30:6, 2 Kings 18:4,5
16) 1 Samuel 25:9; Psalms 32:21 LXX, 33:21 HEB; 43:6, 44:5 HEB; 43:9 LXX, 44:8 HEB; 53:3 LXX, 54:4 HEB; 62:5 LXX HEB; 88:13 LXX, 89:12 HEB; 88:17 LXX, 89:16 HEB; 104:3 LXX, 106:3 HEB; Zechariah 10:12; Daniel 9:6; Mark 9:38; 16:17; Luke 9:49; 10:17; John 5:43; 10:25; 14:13; 14:14; 13:26; 14:14; 14:26; 15:16; 16:23; 16:24; 16:26; 17:12; 20:31; Atos 3:6; 4:10; 9:27,28; 10:48; 1 Coríntios 6:11; Tiago 5:10,14
Here are the literal translations of the provided verses and passages in American English:
17) Zechariah 10:12, Psalms 44:8, Micah 5:4
18) John 20:31
19) John 14:18
20) 1 Corinthians 3:8, 5:4, 12:12, Galatians 3:20, 3:28; 1 John 5:18
21) 1 John 5:20, Romans 5:11, Colossians 3:3, 1 Thessalonians 1:1, 1 John 4:15, 4:16
22) Revelation 19:13
23) Revelation 19:12
24) John 17:11
25) Philippians 2:9-11
26) Luke 1:61
27) John 10:33
28) Genesis 41:26, 41:27
29) Ezekiel 37:24
30) Psalms 23:1; 80:1 HEB
31) Ephesians 3:9
32) John 3:13.
In the above context, as seen before, "The Name" is in the neuter, so Jesus said, it is within the "Name": "in (within) the name of my Father" (John 10:25).
It fulfills the prophecy of Zechariah 14:9: "The LORD will be King over all the earth; in that day the LORD will be one, and His name one." Therefore, there is one Lord, because there is one Name (John 10:30). As the Son of the Father, eternally begotten within righteousness and truth, "...τοῦ υἱοῦ τοῦ πατρὸς ἐν ἀληθείᾳ καὶ ἀγάπῃ..." (John 13:31, 32; 1 Tim 3:16; 2 John 1:3, Romans 3:21, Romans 1:19, 1 John 4:9), He will establish Himself and shepherd us in the power of Yahweh, in the majesty of the Name of the LORD. This is His Elohim, the God! And we will live in peace and security, for His greatness will reach to the ends of the earth. Micah 5:4, also Zechariah 10:12; 12:5.
Therefore, the Son and the Father are united in equality (John 5:18, Philippians 2:6, John 13:31). All these prophecies and signs have been fulfilled and recorded so that we may believe that Jesus is the Christ, the Son of God, and that by believing, we may have life in His Name, the Name of the Father (John 20:31).
And we know that the Son of God has come and has given us understanding so that we may know the True One; and we are in the True One, that is, in His Son Jesus Christ. This is the True God and Eternal Life. 1 John 5:20.
So, Jesus is in the Father, and the Father is in the Son (Matthew 1:23, John 10:38; 14:10-11, 18; and 1 Cor 8:6), and there is one God and Father of all, who is over all and through all and in all. Ephesians 4:6 Pad. G.J. Therefore, this True God is the Father only when the Person of the Son emerges within Him (Hebrews 1:13), and we are only in God when we are in His Son, who, generated within God, transported us to God through His blood. It is not surprising that:
By which He has granted to us His precious and very great promises, so that through them you may become partakers of the divine nature, having escaped from the corruption that is in the world because of sinful desire. Acf 2 Peter 1:4.
We partake of the divine nature of the Father!
NOTE: I am not using the following text as inspired or adulterated; it is not the focus. However, it is certainly a text from the early church, hence its exegetical value: "baptizing them IN the Name of the Father, and of the Son, and of the Holy Spirit" Matthew 28:19. It is not "BY," nor "WITH," but WITHIN the NAME of the FATHER, WITHIN the NAME of the SON, and WITHIN the Name of the Holy Spirit. Therefore, these three have ONE NAME through this early exegesis and agreement with the article.
To understand the force of the use of the preposition εν in John 14:20 and determine if it suggests a full indwelling, we need to consider various arguments, including the analysis of other verses and the provided context.
The verse in question is John 14:20, which says: "In that day you will know that I am in my Father, and you in me, and I in you." (NIV)
**Meaning of the preposition εν + dative in biblical contexts**
The use of the preposition εν + dative in John 14:20 is crucial. This construction is used in a static sense, and the preposition εν is often associated with the idea of a sphere. Analyzing the contexts of other verses, such as 1 Samuel 23:2, 1 Samuel 28:6, and others, reveals the intimacy of consulting God or walking under His sovereignty. This suggests that the preposition εν in John 14:20 also implies a deep connection and relationship. Judges (A) 20:23; Judges (A) 21:7; 1 Samuel 2:1; 1 Samuel 10:22; 1 Samuel 24:22; 1 Samuel 30:6; 2 Samuel 2:1; 2 Samuel 19:8; 1 Kings 1:17; 1 Kings 1:30; 2 Kings 18:5; 2 Chronicles 20:20; 2 Chronicles 26:16; Psalm 20:8; Psalm 32:1; Isaiah 45:25; Hosea 1:7; Habakkuk 3:18; Zechariah 10:12; Zechariah 12:5;
**Correlations with other verses**
The text refers to other verses that emphasize the unity between the Father, the Son, and the disciples. In John 10:15, Jesus speaks of mutual knowledge between him and the Father, which is related to the idea of being "in" each other. Furthermore, John 14:17 mentions the Spirit of Truth dwelling in the disciples, indicating that mutual knowledge is linked to the divine presence. John 1:18, John 14:10-11, and 1 John 2:5; 1 John 2:24; 1 John 4:13; 1 John 4:16
"ginōskein" and "ginōskousin"
The apparent redundancy in the passage concerns the use of the words "know" and "understand" in the context. The phrase in question, "Knowing and understanding" in English, uses two verbs with similar meanings. In the original Greek context, the verbs used are "ginōskein," which is in the aorist form (know), and "ginōskousin," which is in the present form (understand) of the same verb. This choice can be interpreted in two ways: Emphasis: The use of both forms of the verb can emphasize the importance of comprehensive understanding and is not just about having knowledge but also deeply comprehending what is being conveyed.
Saint Basil's Perspective
BOOK OF SAINT BASIL ON THE SPIRIT.
ON THE HOLY SPIRIT.
Nicene and Post-Nicene Fathers: Series II/Volume VIII/On the Holy Spirit/Chapter 18 Philip Schaff et al.
In what manner, in the confession of the three hypostases, we preserve the pious dogma of Monarchy. Where is also the refutation of those who claim that the Spirit is subnumbered.
45. "... And until now we have never heard, not even in the present, of a second God. In worshipping God from God, we confess the distinction of Persons and at the same time remain in the Monarchy. We do not dismember theology into a divided plurality because a Form, as it were, united in the immutability of Divinity, is seen in God the Father and in God the Only-begotten. For the Son is in the Father, and the Father is in the Son; for as this is, so is that, and as that is, so is this; and here is the Unity. Thus, according to the distinction of Persons, both are one and one, and according to the community of Nature, one."
Saint Basil emphasizes the unity of the Trinity and how the presence of each divine Person is inseparable. He asserts that the Son is in the Father, and the Father is in the Son, and this unity is based on the community of nature and the distinction of persons. This supports the idea that the preposition εν in John 14:20 denotes a deep and unbreakable connection that goes beyond mere physical presence.
"In response to the Key Question."
Based on the arguments presented, the use of the preposition εν in John 14:20 suggests an intimate and profound connection between the Father, the Son, and the disciples. This connection goes beyond physical presence and implies a deep spiritual union. The use of εν (+ dative) in this context indeed suggests a "full dwelling," indicating that the divine presence is not just superficial but involves a deep and inseparable spiritual communion between God, Jesus, and believers. Therefore, the strength of the preposition εν in John 14:20 denotes a complete spiritual union.
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Do you have a point?
And, what’s the source for the cut and paste?
Well, here's part of it...
https://hermeneutics.stackexchange.com/questions/47175/what-is-the-force-of-jesus-use-of-the-preposition-%CE%B5%CE%BD-in-john-1420
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"I am the author of the article, and it encapsulates my response to the question."
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Congratulations on writing 3000 words that convey very little information.
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If this were true, you wouldn't have gone to retrieve the information from Biblical Hermeneutics Stack Exchange, nor would you have posted this ad hominem fallacy against my post, thus revealing your religious bias and strongly supporting the argument that the article is highly relevant and has affected your mind. I am withdrawing from the forum out of respect for the other participants.
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I am withdrawing from the forum out of respect for the other participants.
Not all heroes wear capes.
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I guess we'll never know what all those footnotes were meant to convey.
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I just asked the SAME question!
Is this question TABOO here?
[Athanasius didn't like that]
[User banned for double-accounting]
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[Athanasius didn't like that]
[User banned for double-accounting]
Party pooper.
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I know, but it's just going to turn into nonsense we've already seen and nothing original. If they were going to be original with their nonsense then maybe I'd let them stick around a bit.
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You still cannot refute Jesus' word of "His Father is His God".
You guys dancing around too much, friend.
God is Jesus' God. But He is also God because He is the Word of God in human form. He is the Son of God because God's Spirit caused His conception in Mary's womb, but He is God in the sense of being the Word incarnate. The Apostle John opens his Gospel presenting Jesus as He was before He was Jesus. We're told that the Word was both with God and was God from eternity (John 1:1-3), and that the Word was robed in humanity, and dwelled among men (John 1:14).
As you read these words, consider that they are my thoughts--invisible, unknown and unknowable to you. Yet, they are given substance and made manifest by my words. They are still my thoughts, but represented in a way you can know them. In a similar way, God is an invisible Spirit, unknown and unknowable to us until He manifests and reveals Himself by means of His Word. In the opening verses of Genesis, He was displeased with the watery darkness in which the earth was submerged. It was His will that there be light. He sent forth His word, and there was light.
In a similar way, Abraham was steeped in a culture of dark paganism and idolatry and the true Almighty was unknown until God revealed Himself to Abraham by speaking to Him. In the midst of the spiritual darkness, God enlightened the mind of a man by sending forth His word to reveal Himself, initiating the beginning of His work of man's redemption. This principle is beautifully depicted by the prophet Isaiah:
For My thoughts are not your thoughts, neither are your ways My ways, declares the LORD. For as the heavens are higher than the earth, so My ways are higher than your ways and My thoughts than your thoughts. For just as rain and snow fall from heaven and do not return without watering the earth, making it bud and sprout, and providing seed to sow and food to eat, so My word that proceeds from My mouth will not return to Me empty, but it will accomplish what I please, and it will prosper where I send it. (Isaiah 55:8-11)
God's manifests Himself and reveals His mind, will and purpose by means of His divine word, and Jesus is the human incarnation of that word. That's why Paul calls Him "the image of the invisible God." And that's why Jesus said that to see Him was to see the Father (John 14:9). Jesus spoke of being one with God even before the world existed (John 14:5), and of being sent forth from God to accomplish His will (John 4:34; 8:42; 16;27-28; 17:8-9). Thus, Jesus, as the Word of God incarnate, is declared to have proceeded forth from God to fulfill His purpose in the same manner described by Isaiah. Moreover, He returned to Him not void, but having fully accomplished the purpose for which He was sent by means of His sacrificial death and resurrection.
So yes, God is the God and Father of Jesus. But Jesus is God as the divine Word incarnate; now and forever a temple of glorified humanity in whom dwells the Spirit of God. He has returned to the Father as depicted in Daniel 7:13, and will one day return to establish His earthly kingdom. Those who dwell in that kingdom will not see the invisible God, but will behold upon the throne the Word that reveals and manifests Him, as the king of glory.
Your post sums up my thoughts (I think LOL)
Jesus is God in the sense that he is the Word (or perfect representation, message, whatever) of God in human form. He is clearly separate from the Father, though to say he is "not equal" doesn't really make sense in the context of who He is. He is the perfect expression of God the Father. God revealed Himself through the Law and the Prophets (His Word) and, ultimately, through Jesus.
Whether Jesus is God or Jesus is the Word of God, Son of God...or all of the above, whatever...His death was deemed worthy by God the Father to reconcile us to Himself.