BibleForums Christian Message Board
Bible Talk => Just Bible => Topic started by: Fenris on July 10, 2022, 11:05:30 AM
-
In this week's Torah portion, we read Numbers 20.
Let's discuss.
Now there was no water for the community, and the people gathered in opposition to Moses and Aaron. They quarreled with Moses and said, “If only we had died when our brothers fell dead before the Lord! Why did you bring the Lord’s community into this wilderness, that we and our livestock should die here? Why did you bring us up out of Egypt to this terrible place? It has no grain or figs, grapevines or pomegranates. And there is no water to drink!”
The people are thirsty.
Moses and Aaron went from the assembly to the entrance to the tent of meeting and fell facedown, and the glory of the Lord appeared to them. The Lord said to Moses, “Take the staff, and you and your brother Aaron gather the assembly together. Speak to that rock before their eyes and it will pour out its water. You will bring water out of the rock for the community so they and their livestock can drink.”
Moses is told to take his staff and speak to a rock (or perhaps a specific rock? The Hebrew uses the direct article 'the rock'). After he does so, enough water will come forth for everyone to drink.
So Moses took the staff from the Lord’s presence, just as he commanded him. He and Aaron gathered the assembly together in front of the rock and Moses said to them, “Listen, you rebels, must we bring you water out of this rock?” Then Moses raised his arm and struck the rock twice with his staff. Water gushed out, and the community and their livestock drank.
Rather than speaking to the rock, Moses strikes it. Water comes forth.
But the Lord said to Moses and Aaron, “Because you did not trust in me enough to honor me as holy in the sight of the Israelites, you will not bring this community into the land I give them.”
Because he struck the rock rather than speaking to it, Moses is denied entry into the Holy Land.
There's a lot to unpack here.
This seems like such a small, trivial matter to have such consequences. Rabbis through history have tried to explain it. Some thoughts.
The obvious: Moses didn't follow instructions. The higher a spiritual plane a person is on, the more exacting the judgement.
More subtle: Moses lost his temper. The people's demand wasn't unreasonable; they were in the desert, and they were thirsty. There was no reason for him to shout at them and call them "rebels". There's no indication that God was angry at them, so why was Moses?
Another way to look at it entirely: In Exodus 17, when the people asked for water, God instructed Moses "Strike the rock, and water will come out of it for the people to drink." Here Moses is instructed to speak to the rock. What changed? The people changed. In Exodus 17, Moses was dealing with the generation born in Egypt. In slavery. They had a slave mentality and physical inducements was part of that. Moses striking the rock made sense to them. In Numbers 20, we are dealing with the generation born in the desert, in freedom. And free people are not to be struck to gain obedience. They must be spoken to and convinced. Which is why Moses was instructed to speak to the rock.
And this is why Moses is not allowed to enter the promised land. He was not the man for that mission, and so that was not his mission. His was to take the Hebrews out of Egypt, and he did that and did it well. But it would be up to another person to lead the generation born free into the land of Israel, to conquer and build a state.
Moses is still the most esteemed individual in Judaism. He is always referred to as "Moshe Rabbenu", "Moses, our teacher". He is still considered the greatest prophet, as per the end of Deuteronomy Since then, no prophet has risen in Israel like Moses, whom the Lord knew face to face, who did all those signs and wonders the Lord sent him to do in Egypt—to Pharaoh and to all his officials and to his whole land. For no one has ever shown the mighty power or performed the awesome deeds that Moses did in the sight of all Israel.
-
The NT says the rock was symbolic of the Messiah. He was smitten once, so that life giving water (symbolic of Gods' Spirit or his word) would be imparted to his people.
Also, it seems from the story that Moses struch the rock in anger, because the Israelites born in freedom were complaining as their fathers did.
-
The NT says the rock was symbolic of the Messiah. He was smitten once, so that life giving water (symbolic of Gods' Spirit or his word) would be imparted to his people.
Also, it seems from the story that Moses struch the rock in anger, because the Israelites born in freedom were complaining as their fathers did.
Tell me that you didn't read what I wrote without telling me that you didn't read what I wrote.
-
Tell me that you didn't read what I wrote without telling me that you didn't read what I wrote.
I read your post. I was just giving you the NT version,
they drank of that spiritual Rock that followed them: and that Rock was Christ. 1Cor.10:4
So in light of that, it makes perfect sense that he shouldn't be smitten again,
Knowing that Christ being raised from the dead dieth no more Rom.6:9
So just speak to the Rock.
-
I read your post. I was just giving you the NT version,
You know
It's possible that there are verses in the bible that have nothing whatsoever to do with either Jesus or Christianity. The verses in question here are about Moses, and the man that he was, and the generation that he shepherded.
-
I read your post. I was just giving you the NT version,
You know
It's possible that there are verses in the bible that have nothing whatsoever to do with either Jesus or Christianity. The verses in question here are about Moses, and the man that he was, and the generation that he shepherded.
Agreed. Sometime a cigar is just a cigar.
Except when it is a miniature Jewish Space Laser.
-
You know
It's possible that there are verses in the bible that have nothing whatsoever to do with either Jesus or Christianity. The verses in question here are about Moses, and the man that he was, and the generation that he shepherded.
I understand that most Jewish people don't believe the OT says anything about Jesus. This might be a revelation to some Christians, but it isn't to me.
I'm certain the Jews who wrote the NT knew what they were talking about.
-
I understand that most Jewish people don't believe the OT says anything about Jesus.
Just because some verses might be about Jesus doesn't mean that every verse is about Jesus.
As I said, the topic in question here is about Moses and the generation that came out of Egypt.
I'm certain the Jews who wrote the NT knew what they were talking about.
Jews can be as wrong as anybody else. Karl Marx, for example.
-
And Groucho
Just sayin’
-
And Groucho
Just sayin’
The three stooges tho... perfection. And all Jewish.
-
Nyuk nyuk nyuk
Whooobobobbbbooooobobooooboo
-
Just because some verses might be about Jesus doesn't mean that every verse is about Jesus.
As I said, the topic in question here is about Moses and the generation that came out of Egypt.
Jews can be as wrong as anybody else. Karl Marx, for example.
The NT holds Moses in high esteem. I understand people today regard Jesus as no more important than Marx or comedians.
-
Nyuk nyuk nyuk
Whooobobobbbbooooobobooooboo
(https://i.pinimg.com/originals/6c/89/9b/6c899b947c9a14410f2c0b5740720510.jpg)
The Hebrew part says "Yehudah Leib, son of Shlomo Nasan the Levite."
There is a story in the Talmud of a certain rabbi who met Elijah the prophet in the marketplace once. He asked Elijah if anyone there was destined for life in the world to come. Elijah pointed out two individuals. When the rabbi went to them and asked them what they did, they replied, "We are comedians. We give cheer to those who are depressed."
-
The NT holds Moses in high esteem. I understand people today regard Jesus as no more important than Marx or comedians.
I mean, the same could be said of the Koran and Mohammed. This isn't the point you think it is.
-
I mean, the same could be said of the Koran and Mohammed. This isn't the point you think it is.
Jesus and the NT didn't change what Moses wrote. Mohammed and the Quaran did. People who revere Moses don't change what he said.
-
Jesus and the NT didn't change what Moses wrote.
Well they certainly reinterpreted it.
Mohammed and the Quaran did.
And yet in some ways, Islam is closer to Judaism than Christianity is. Which is interesting.
-
Well they certainly reinterpreted it.
And yet in some ways, Islam is closer to Judaism than Christianity is. Which is interesting.
Maybe it's because Mohammed denied the NT also.
-
I haven't been following this discussion. Let me know if I need to step in.
-
Maybe it's because Mohammed denied the NT also.
Well not all of it. For example, unlike Jews, they believe Jesus was a prophet.
-
Well not all of it. For example, unlike Jews, they believe Jesus was a prophet.
They say they do, but they don't, because Jesus predicted he would rise from death and Islam denies that.
Also, Jesus affirmed a Torah which speaks of Gods' people coming from Isaac, not Ishmael as the Quaran states.
Why bother resorting to the logic that 500 years after Jesus and far longer than Moses.....tada, the Quaran is here to tell us all about it.
-
resorting to the logic that 500 years after Jesus and far longer than Moses.....tada, the Quaran is here to tell us all about it.
I dunno, it's all after the fact to me.
-
I dunno, it's all after the fact to me.
Oh the yarns they could tell. 😊
-
This subject of Moses not being allowed to enter the promised land is very important for believers, whether in the Old or New Testament.
Why? Because Moses, when he struck the Rock, put Christ to an open shame. (Heb. 6:6)
The New Testament is clear. Christ was that Rock. (1 Cor. 10:4) The smiting of the Rock was legitimate the first time as it speaks to Christ's being smitten. (Ex. 17:6) But later, Moses was told to 'speak' to the Rock. And he didn't. He smote it again, twice. (Num. 20:11) Moses therefore 'crucified to himself the Son of God afresh'. (Heb. 6:6)
This places Moses in the category of (Heb. 6:4-6), of those who were enlightened but have fallen away. And these verses are used by many to show that believers can lose their salvation. Well, is there any believer out there that believes Moses lost his salvation? Of course not.
Therefore (Heb. 6:4-6) is not talking about going to the eternal state of Heaven. It is about not being allowed to go forward in the salvation that you have here. It is serious, of course. But, not a loss of eternal salvation with God.
Quantrill
-
The obvious: Moses didn't follow instructions. The higher a spiritual plane a person is on, the more exacting the judgement.
Or as Jesus put it, "to whom much is given, much will be required." To us, the punishment seems a little harsh for the offense, but God's standards and perspective are light years above ours. Still, God at least let Moses see the land from afar before he died.
(In Moses' defense, he didn't want the job in the first place, and at 120, and was probably getting a little cranky).
In the final analysis, after all he accomplished for God, it may simply have been time to retire him and let Joshua take the reigns of leadership.
-
Not to deviate from the current topic, but we might recall that God stopped just short of actually killing Moses for neglecting to circumcise his son. Punishment doesn't get much harsher than that.
-
The obvious: Moses didn't follow instructions. The higher a spiritual plane a person is on, the more exacting the judgement.
Or as Jesus put it, "to whom much is given, much will be required." To us, the punishment seems a little harsh for the offense, but God's standards and perspective are light years above ours. Still, God at least let Moses see the land from afar before he died.
(In Moses' defense, he didn't want the job in the first place, and at 120, and was probably getting a little cranky).
In the final analysis, after all he accomplished for God, it may simply have been time to retire him and let Joshua take the reigns of leadership.
Moses didn't want to just 'see' the land. He wanted to go into the land.
It doesn't matter that Moses didn't want the job in the first place. And, Moses was ill tempered all of his life. Remember the Egyptian he killed before fleeing into the wilderness?
No, it was not just a matter of retirement. Moses sinned against God. As a result God did not allow him into the promised land.
Quantrill
-
Jesus and the NT didn't change what Moses wrote.
Well they certainly reinterpreted it.
Mohammed and the Quaran did.
And yet in some ways, Islam is closer to Judaism than Christianity is. Which is interesting.
Yes Islam is closer to Judaism then Christianity. Jews and Muslems are cousins. Generational sons of Abraham.
-
Yes Islam is closer to Judaism then Christianity. Jews and Muslems are cousins. Generational sons of Abraham.
No. Jews and Arabs are cousins. Not Muslims. My point is about the religion itself, not the people who follow it.
-
Correct . I get the words mixed up way to often.
-
Where in the New Testament is the source of this claim, where 'the rock' refers to the one Moses struck?
"The NT says the rock was symbolic of the Messiah."
-
Where in the New Testament is the source of this claim, where 'the rock' refers to the one Moses struck?
"The NT says the rock was symbolic of the Messiah."
Probably 1 Corinthians 10:4 "for they drank from the spiritual rock that accompanied them, and that rock was Christ" although it was a physical rock that provided water and not a "spiritual" one. And even then it was two instances and not the entire 40 years.
-
Warn me before you do that.
:o
Hot tea nostrilspewing on the monitor is somewhat painful.
Although the Earl Grey does leave a pleasing after aroma...
-
Where in the New Testament is the source of this claim, where 'the rock' refers to the one Moses struck?
"The NT says the rock was symbolic of the Messiah."
Probably 1 Corinthians 10:4 "for they drank from the spiritual rock that accompanied them, and that rock was Christ" although it was a physical rock that provided water and not a "spiritual" one. And even then it was two instances and not the entire 40 years.
Fenris quoting the NT [!] :)
-
Fenris quoting the NT [!] :)
Hey, I learned a thing or two here. ;)
I can quote the NT even if I don't consider it holy writ. I at least know what it says.
-
Fenris quoting the NT [!] :)
Hey, I learned a thing or two here. ;)
I can quote the NT even if I don't consider it holy writ. I at least know what it says.
Beats most nominal Christians I encounter
-
Beats most nominal Christians I encounter
Hey, I understand Christian theology fairly well, thanks to teachers like you, professor M, and others on this site.
-
Understanding Christian theology from the forums ? Thats like understanding building from the sandbox. ;)
-
That’s not exactly what he said
-
Goodness you are touchy. My implication: different forms of Christianity on forums are sorta like the zillion grains of sand in the box.
-
Goodness you are touchy. My implication: different forms of Christianity on forums are sorta like the zillion grains of sand in the box.
No, not "touchy"... trying to raise the standard by which Christians communicate with one another and with non-believers.
Fenris referenced only THIS site and his now 15+ years of interaction with several of us old-timers. You then expressed, with more than a bit of distain and dismissiveness, and with a rather broadbrushed stroke, a poor analogy that has no bearing on Fenris' comment.
It is no wonder that non-Christians do not take our apologetics seriously when we are so poor at it.
-
Understanding Christian theology from the forums ? Thats like understanding building from the sandbox. ;)
There are certain core principles that every Christian believes, which are fundamentally Christian. Jesus as the son of God. Jesus dying for the sins of mankind. These things I have learned and come to understand. I am also well versed in Christian proof texts from the OT. And I am fairly familiar with the NT, first as a historical document of first century Judea, and secondarily as a document that is somewhat Jewish and also somewhat not.
Do I know the nuances of every particular Christian sect? No. Do you? Also no. Is that important? In the balance, I think not.
-
It is no wonder that non-Christians do not take our apologetics seriously when we are so poor at it.
Ahh you guys don't give yourself enough credit. Christianity isn't the world's largest religion for nothing. Your general lack of progress with followers of the Jewish faith notwithstanding.
-
We are afraid of getting zapped with the space laser…
-
We are afraid of getting zapped with the space laser…
LOL no, it wasn't for lack of trying. ;D
-
OK, buster, you asked for it
:o :o :o :o
-
Readying the laser...
-
Goodness you are touchy. My implication: different forms of Christianity on forums are sorta like the zillion grains of sand in the box.
No, not "touchy"... trying to raise the standard by which Christians communicate with one another and with non-believers.
Fenris referenced only THIS site and his now 15+ years of interaction with several of us old-timers. You then expressed, with more than a bit of distain and dismissiveness, and with a rather broadbrushed stroke, a poor analogy that has no bearing on Fenris' comment.
It is no wonder that non-Christians do not take our apologetics seriously when we are so poor at it.
Well I am here . Without meaning to seems what i write is offencive to your understanding. As you are who you are i am who i am. Kinda get the 'feeling' you are protecting Fenris , no need, i respect what he has to say he seems true to his beliefs. Wishing i was not offensive to you.
-
Kinda get the 'feeling' you are protecting Fenris
I patrolled the mean streets of the Bronx, you know.
-
He don’t need no stinking’ badges….
-
Also OBL threw a skyscraper at me. I was not too happy about this, as one may well imagine.
-
Understanding Christian theology from the forums ? Thats like understanding building from the sandbox. ;)
You'll find that sandboxes are good places to learn fundamental architectural principles (like, don't build castles out of sand if you want it to last). You don't know who any of us are, our backgrounds, or who we eat lunch with. Your comment was a misstep that came across as a dig.
Let's move on from it.
-
Kinda get the 'feeling' you are protecting Fenris
I patrolled the mean streets of the Bronx, you know.
you're tough
-
you're tough
Like everyone else, only when I need to be. And I don't need to be here. We are amongst friends.
-
Returning to the issue of the OP, a few points were not discussed. First, both Moses and Aaron lost out on entering the Promised Land because of Moses' poor judgment. Secondly, consider what Moses said just before striking the rock: “Listen now, you rebels, must we bring you water out of this rock?” Not only did Moses not correctly follow the Lord's instructions, he essentially made Aaron and himself the benefactors who would supply the water. God graciously sent the water gushing out of the rock, but He was very displeased. At any rate, both brothers paid for the error, and neither one entered the land.
-
Returning to the issue of the OP, a few points were not discussed. First, both Moses and Aaron lost out on entering the Promised Land because of Moses' poor judgment.
I don't like the phrase "poor judgement". Nobody did more for the Israelites than Moses. When God threatened to destroy the people, Moses told Him to strike his name from the bible if God did that. Moses was a product of his generation. He was the person who could bring the Israelites forth from bondage. He was the one who brought down the law to them. He led them through trying times in the desert for 40 years.
He was just not the one who would enter the land with them. That was left to another.
Secondly, consider what Moses said just before striking the rock: “Listen now, you rebels, must we bring you water out of this rock?” Not only did Moses not correctly follow the Lord's instructions, he essentially made Aaron and himself the benefactors who would supply the water.
Yes, and some Jewish biblical commentators have pointed this out as Moses's main mistake.
God graciously sent the water gushing out of the rock, but He was very displeased.
I'll repost from the original post-
Another way to look at it entirely: In Exodus 17, when the people asked for water, God instructed Moses "Strike the rock, and water will come out of it for the people to drink." Here Moses is instructed to speak to the rock. What changed? The people changed. In Exodus 17, Moses was dealing with the generation born in Egypt. In slavery. They had a slave mentality and physical inducements was part of that. Moses striking the rock made sense to them. In Numbers 20, we are dealing with the generation born in the desert, in freedom. And free people are not to be struck to gain obedience. They must be spoken to and convinced. Which is why Moses was instructed to speak to the rock.
And this is why Moses is not allowed to enter the promised land. He was not the man for that mission, and so that was not his mission. His was to take the Hebrews out of Egypt, and he did that and did it well. But it would be up to another person to lead the generation born free into the land of Israel, to conquer and build a state.
-
Hey, I have nothing but high regard for Moses. God required of him a task that I'm sure frequently drained him physically, mentally and emotionally, and he endured it every step of the way--even at 120 years of age. No servant of God labored harder and persevered more than Moses. But I think letting anger cloud his thinking to the point of disobeying God with his words and actions can certainly be described as a lapse in judgment. The same is true of killing the Egyptian. And neglecting to circumcise his son. God came close to killing him over that. To whom much is given, much is required, and God's punishment is commensurate--mitigated of course, by His mercy.
-
But I think letting anger cloud his thinking to the point of disobeying God with his words and actions can certainly be described as a lapse in judgment.
That is certainly one way to look at it, and who am I to say that it's wrong? I'm simply observing that there are other ways to view the incident.
-
But I think letting anger cloud his thinking to the point of disobeying God with his words and actions can certainly be described as a lapse in judgment.
That is certainly one way to look at it, and who am I to say that it's wrong? I'm simply observing that there are other ways to view the incident.
Can you elaborate?
-
Can you elaborate?
I've said it already.
In Exodus 17, when the people asked for water, God instructed Moses "Strike the rock, and water will come out of it for the people to drink." Here Moses is instructed to speak to the rock. What changed? The people changed. In Exodus 17, Moses was dealing with the generation born in Egypt. In slavery. They had a slave mentality and physical inducements was part of that. Moses striking the rock made sense to them. In Numbers 20, we are dealing with the generation born in the desert, in freedom. And free people are not to be struck to gain obedience. They must be spoken to and convinced. Which is why Moses was instructed to speak to the rock.
And this is why Moses is not allowed to enter the promised land. He was not the man for that mission, and so that was not his mission. His was to take the Hebrews out of Egypt, and he did that and did it well. But it would be up to another person to lead the generation born free into the land of Israel, to conquer and build a state.
-
Can you elaborate?
I've said it already.
In Exodus 17, when the people asked for water, God instructed Moses "Strike the rock, and water will come out of it for the people to drink." Here Moses is instructed to speak to the rock. What changed? The people changed. In Exodus 17, Moses was dealing with the generation born in Egypt. In slavery. They had a slave mentality and physical inducements was part of that. Moses striking the rock made sense to them. In Numbers 20, we are dealing with the generation born in the desert, in freedom. And free people are not to be struck to gain obedience. They must be spoken to and convinced. Which is why Moses was instructed to speak to the rock.
And this is why Moses is not allowed to enter the promised land. He was not the man for that mission, and so that was not his mission. His was to take the Hebrews out of Egypt, and he did that and did it well. But it would be up to another person to lead the generation born free into the land of Israel, to conquer and build a state.
I understand what you're saying about the difference in the people, and I can agree that it was time for God to hand the reigns of leadership over to Joshua. But that doesn't explain why Moses struck the rock in anger instead of speaking to it as instructed, nor does it mitigate his accountability. God clearly stated the reason Moses and Aaron would not enter the Promised Land was because they did not do as He instructed regarding the rock:
But the LORD said to Moses and Aaron, "Because you did not trust Me to show My holiness in the sight of the Israelites, you will not bring this assembly into the land that I have given them." (Numbers 20:12)
And there on the mountain that you climb, you will die and be gathered to your people, just as your brother Aaron died on Mount Hor and was gathered to his people. For at the waters of Meribah-kadesh in the Wilderness of Zin, both of you broke faith with Me among the Israelites by failing to treat Me as holy in their presence. Although you shall see from a distance the land that I am giving the Israelites, you shall not enter it. (Deut 32:50-52)
-
It's how serious God takes sin.
-
I understand what you're saying about the difference in the people, and I can agree that it was time for God to hand the reigns of leadership over to Joshua. But that doesn't explain why Moses struck the rock in anger instead of speaking to it as instructed, nor does it mitigate his accountability. God clearly stated the reason Moses and Aaron would not enter the Promised Land was because they did not do as He instructed regarding the rock:
But the LORD said to Moses and Aaron, "Because you did not trust Me to show My holiness in the sight of the Israelites, you will not bring this assembly into the land that I have given them." (Numbers 20:12)
And there on the mountain that you climb, you will die and be gathered to your people, just as your brother Aaron died on Mount Hor and was gathered to his people. For at the waters of Meribah-kadesh in the Wilderness of Zin, both of you broke faith with Me among the Israelites by failing to treat Me as holy in their presence. Although you shall see from a distance the land that I am giving the Israelites, you shall not enter it. (Deut 32:50-52)
Again, no argument. Just showing you another way to look at the incident.