BibleForums Christian Message Board
Bible Talk => Apologetics => Topic started by: Abigail on February 22, 2022, 03:23:47 PM
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I was raised in the faith of Christ. Suffice to say long years of living and learning have brought me to a place where I'm of more questions than answers. I guess what I'm asking is, would you please share with me why I should hold faith?
What I've learned over the years.
The OT of the Bible is a composite of Sumerian history , like the book of Genesis for instance. It is derived from the creation myth of the ancient Sumerians that predate the Jews. The Sumerian myth of creation is the Enuma Elish.
However, the Nephilim are also in that ancient text.
The Jews were formerly polytheists due to their Babylonian captivity. Then they turned to Monotheism. The God of the Jewish faith then became El, derived from the aforementioned Sumerian God's lists, aka , Kings list.
Further, sin and our being born to be sinners.
The ultimate question I guess that arrives for any Christian is, why didn't God forgive Adam and Eve in the beginning? When they were innocents misled by the serpent that obviously knew the terms and conditions as they applied to the forbidden fruit tree in order to tempt Eve to eat.
Being the serpent was wiser, and said to be Satan whom God let live after casting him, when he was known as Lucifer, from Heaven after Lucifer led a war against God there, and thus was the first sinner committing that sin against God and his authority.
Why let him live and cast him to earth and make him lord here? Where he would not only be able to gain entry into Eden that God judged good after creating it, with the forbidden tree included. Why condemn all humankind for one innocent mistake in 'disobeying' God and eating of the forbidden fruit? When neither Eve , who ate first, and then Adam , by whom sin then entered the world, had no knowledge of good or evil prior to eating and as such could not understand the consequences of good/obedience or evil/disobedience, as relates to God's order to not eat of that forbidden fruit?
Why did God write the names of those whom he'd save from their sins in his "Lambs Book of Life" before he created the earth. Which indicates he knew there would be sin to need saving from before he created the earth,Eden, or the forbidden tree.
Lastly, at least for now, what if it is true that God in the OT, per Marcion, is not the God that was Jesus, Emmanuel (God with us) ? And Jesus was coming to give us a road to Salvation that as we read in the OT was not available in those texts?
Basically, I'm conflicted and worried. What if it's all man made? Because of the aforementioned Sumerian histories that by thousands of years predate the Bible that contains textual references from those Sumerian tablets?
I do believe in God, that's for sure. I'm just wondering if anyone can help me to come to terms with believing in God the way Christianity prescribes.
This is not an insult to the faith or this forum by the way. I am genuinely conflicted and have been for some time. I just thought I might ask this question of a forum that may deem to help me find peace.
Thank you if you read this far.
God Bless,
A.
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What I've learned over the years.
The OT of the Bible is a composite of Sumerian history , like the book of Genesis for instance. It is derived from the creation myth of the ancient Sumerians that predate the Jews. The Sumerian myth of creation is the Enuma Elish.
However, the Nephilim are also in that ancient text.
Likely a reasonable place to start. While there are bits of similarities between the Sumerian myths and the OT, as there are similarly bits and pieces in most creation myths, Genesis is accounted to Moses, as are the first 5 books of the Bible, and is not a compilation of these ancient writings.
Many are jumping to false conclusions and teaching these things as verifications that the Bible is not actually inspired and true, but there is nothing conclusive or contextual about their renderings.
Genesis is a point by point account of creation and the history of mankind and God's plan of salvation written in very clear terms and followed up by ensuing historical accounts.
There are ancient accounts of the Flood, per example, in every major myth known to archeologists, yet in Genesis we are given clear detail and are able to follow the hand of God as history unfolds.
Ancient myths do not and cannot impeach the Biblical narrative, but often do confirm the accounts of Genesis as historical events, albeit from different perspectives and religious motives.
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I was raised in the faith of Christ. Suffice to say long years of living and learning have brought me to a place where I'm of more questions than answers. I guess what I'm asking is, would you please share with me why I should hold faith?
What I've learned over the years.
The OT of the Bible is a composite of Sumerian history , like the book of Genesis for instance. It is derived from the creation myth of the ancient Sumerians that predate the Jews. The Sumerian myth of creation is the Enuma Elish.
However, the Nephilim are also in that ancient text.
The Jews were formerly polytheists due to their Babylonian captivity. Then they turned to Monotheism. The God of the Jewish faith then became El, derived from the aforementioned Sumerian God's lists, aka , Kings list.
Further, sin and our being born to be sinners.
The ultimate question I guess that arrives for any Christian is, why didn't God forgive Adam and Eve in the beginning? When they were innocents misled by the serpent that obviously knew the terms and conditions as they applied to the forbidden fruit tree in order to tempt Eve to eat.
Being the serpent was wiser, and said to be Satan whom God let live after casting him, when he was known as Lucifer, from Heaven after Lucifer led a war against God there, and thus was the first sinner committing that sin against God and his authority.
Why let him live and cast him to earth and make him lord here? Where he would not only be able to gain entry into Eden that God judged good after creating it, with the forbidden tree included. Why condemn all humankind for one innocent mistake in 'disobeying' God and eating of the forbidden fruit? When neither Eve , who ate first, and then Adam , by whom sin then entered the world, had no knowledge of good or evil prior to eating and as such could not understand the consequences of good/obedience or evil/disobedience, as relates to God's order to not eat of that forbidden fruit?
Why did God write the names of those whom he'd save from their sins in his "Lambs Book of Life" before he created the earth. Which indicates he knew there would be sin to need saving from before he created the earth,Eden, or the forbidden tree.
Lastly, at least for now, what if it is true that God in the OT, per Marcion, is not the God that was Jesus, Emmanuel (God with us) ? And Jesus was coming to give us a road to Salvation that as we read in the OT was not available in those texts?
Basically, I'm conflicted and worried. What if it's all man made? Because of the aforementioned Sumerian histories that by thousands of years predate the Bible that contains textual references from those Sumerian tablets?
I do believe in God, that's for sure. I'm just wondering if anyone can help me to come to terms with believing in God the way Christianity prescribes.
This is not an insult to the faith or this forum by the way. I am genuinely conflicted and have been for some time. I just thought I might ask this question of a forum that may deem to help me find peace.
Thank you if you read this far.
God Bless,
A.
Mhmm.
Why don't you start with one of these questions, explain more what your thoughts are on that question, and then we'll all examine it in-depth, and go onto the next question in turn, and so on. Since another poster already replied, let's start from the start. What are your broader thoughts on the textual composition of the Bible?
Let's all everyone who replies stick to this one item for now. There's no need to introduce any of the other ~20 items early, they'll get their turn.
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@Athanasius, good point.
OK, lets start at the beginning. The first five books are credited to Moshe, or Moses, as author. https://biblehub.com/timeline/genesis/1.htm Before 4000B.C. - Genesis.
However, the Sumerian Enūma Eliš, also called The Seven Tablets of Creation , [PDF: Comparison Genesis to Enuma Elish:http://rspaulgroup.com/Home/Bible_20_20_OT_files/Lesson%201_11.pdf ] , were found in the ruins Library of Ashurbanipal at Nineveh. It is considered to be the oldest extant creation epic dated to approximately the 2nd millennium B.C. .
" Also Known As: The Chaldean Account of Genesis (name was given by George Smith to his translation of the Enuma Elish, in 1876), The Babylonian Genesis, The Poem of Creation, and The Epic of Creation
Alternate Spellings: Enūma eliš " Source:https://www.learnreligions.com/enuma-elish-the-oldest-written-creation-myth-117858
Staying with the Book of Genesis, Genesis 6 and Noah's ark: this is preceded by the epic of Gilgamesh. (https://duckduckgo.com/i/e3429017.jpg) It was recorded in the Akadian language and too was found in the ruins of the library at Ashurbanipal. These particular tablets are said to date to 750 B.C.
Thank you for your help. :)
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@Athanasius, good point.
OK, lets start at the beginning. The first five books are credited to Moshe, or Moses, as author. https://biblehub.com/timeline/genesis/1.htm Before 4000B.C. - Genesis.
However, the Sumerian Enūma Eliš, also called The Seven Tablets of Creation , [PDF: Comparison Genesis to Enuma Elish:http://rspaulgroup.com/Home/Bible_20_20_OT_files/Lesson%201_11.pdf ] , were found in the ruins Library of Ashurbanipal at Nineveh. It is considered to be the oldest extant creation epic dated to approximately the 2nd millennium B.C. .
" Also Known As: The Chaldean Account of Genesis (name was given by George Smith to his translation of the Enuma Elish, in 1876), The Babylonian Genesis, The Poem of Creation, and The Epic of Creation
Alternate Spellings: Enūma eliš " Source:https://www.learnreligions.com/enuma-elish-the-oldest-written-creation-myth-117858
Staying with the Book of Genesis, Genesis 6 and Noah's ark: this is preceded by the epic of Gilgamesh. (https://duckduckgo.com/i/e3429017.jpg) It was recorded in the Akadian language and too was found in the ruins of the library at Ashurbanipal. These particular tablets are said to date to 750 B.C.
Thank you for your help. :)
A regular Daniel Jackson. Or was that Ehrman? Nah, totally Spader, or maybe Shanks.
I didn't ask for a history lesson, I asked for your thoughts on why you found this to be a difficulty. So, what about the textual development of the bible do you find difficult to your personal faith, as you mentioned? You said you were genuinely conflicted so like, genuinely, where does the conflict lie?
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@Athanasius, good point.
OK, lets start at the beginning. The first five books are credited to Moshe, or Moses, as author. https://biblehub.com/timeline/genesis/1.htm Before 4000B.C. - Genesis.
However, the Sumerian Enūma Eliš, also called The Seven Tablets of Creation , [PDF: Comparison Genesis to Enuma Elish:http://rspaulgroup.com/Home/Bible_20_20_OT_files/Lesson%201_11.pdf ] , were found in the ruins Library of Ashurbanipal at Nineveh. It is considered to be the oldest extant creation epic dated to approximately the 2nd millennium B.C. .
" Also Known As: The Chaldean Account of Genesis (name was given by George Smith to his translation of the Enuma Elish, in 1876), The Babylonian Genesis, The Poem of Creation, and The Epic of Creation
Alternate Spellings: Enūma eliš " Source:https://www.learnreligions.com/enuma-elish-the-oldest-written-creation-myth-117858
Staying with the Book of Genesis, Genesis 6 and Noah's ark: this is preceded by the epic of Gilgamesh. (https://duckduckgo.com/i/e3429017.jpg) It was recorded in the Akadian language and too was found in the ruins of the library at Ashurbanipal. These particular tablets are said to date to 750 B.C.
Thank you for your help. :)
A regular Daniel Jackson. Or was that Ehrman? Nah, totally Spader, or maybe Shanks.
I didn't ask for a history lesson, I asked for your thoughts on why you found this to be a difficulty. So, what about the textual development of the bible do you find difficult to your personal faith, as you mentioned? You said you were genuinely conflicted so like, genuinely, where does the conflict lie?
How do you understand my issue with the conflict if you think what you call a history lesson isn't anything that will help you with it?
I'll rephrase. All that I posted in the post you criticized as a history lesson you've no interest in predates the Bible's book of Genesis.
Ergo, when we Christian's accept the Bible, including Genesis and the first five books, were written by Moses under inspiration of God, I believe the textual history of books predating Genesis, yet that contain events similar to what is copied in Genesis are relevant.
Because if God inspired the Bible why does its content appear in historic texts and a different culture well before the date of its first book, Genesis?
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@Athanasius, good point.
OK, lets start at the beginning. The first five books are credited to Moshe, or Moses, as author. https://biblehub.com/timeline/genesis/1.htm Before 4000B.C. - Genesis.
However, the Sumerian Enūma Eliš, also called The Seven Tablets of Creation , [PDF: Comparison Genesis to Enuma Elish:http://rspaulgroup.com/Home/Bible_20_20_OT_files/Lesson%201_11.pdf ] , were found in the ruins Library of Ashurbanipal at Nineveh. It is considered to be the oldest extant creation epic dated to approximately the 2nd millennium B.C. .
" Also Known As: The Chaldean Account of Genesis (name was given by George Smith to his translation of the Enuma Elish, in 1876), The Babylonian Genesis, The Poem of Creation, and The Epic of Creation
Alternate Spellings: Enūma eliš " Source:https://www.learnreligions.com/enuma-elish-the-oldest-written-creation-myth-117858
Staying with the Book of Genesis, Genesis 6 and Noah's ark: this is preceded by the epic of Gilgamesh. (https://duckduckgo.com/i/e3429017.jpg) It was recorded in the Akadian language and too was found in the ruins of the library at Ashurbanipal. These particular tablets are said to date to 750 B.C.
Thank you for your help. :)
A regular Daniel Jackson. Or was that Ehrman? Nah, totally Spader, or maybe Shanks.
I didn't ask for a history lesson, I asked for your thoughts on why you found this to be a difficulty. So, what about the textual development of the bible do you find difficult to your personal faith, as you mentioned? You said you were genuinely conflicted so like, genuinely, where does the conflict lie?
How do you understand my issue with the conflict if you think what you call a history lesson isn't anything that will help you with it?
I'll rephrase. All that I posted in the post you criticized as a history lesson you've no interest in predates the Bible's book of Genesis.
Ergo, when we Christian's accept the Bible, including Genesis and the first five books, were written by Moses under inspiration of God, I believe the textual history of books predating Genesis, yet that contain events similar to what is copied in Genesis are relevant.
Because if God inspired the Bible why does its content appear in historic texts and a different culture well before the date of its first book, Genesis?
I'm trying to determine if you're genuine, or if you're here to try to play Ehrman. Asking for your thoughts on the matter, only to be met with an attempted education, does not incline me towards the former. But thanks for the alternate spellings and such.
Assuming you're genuine, you're suggesting that inspiration ought to involve revelation that is wholly original; but, if history is as literally described in the bible (is it?), then it will be the case that such stories would have been passed down from generation to generation until such time that Moses (apparently, if we lean in that direction) wrote. History being what it is.
And of course, those supposed Mosaic texts aren't verbatim reproductions of other ANE texts, so, there is some 'originality' to be had, to put it lightly. That 'some' is slightly facetious. Poetic structure in mind, there are decent differences between the two.
So, are you asking because you're asking, or because you're going to try to teach us all about how certain ANE texts predate the authorship of Genesis by some ~300 years? (Did Marduk ever get along with Darmok? We may never know.) Hence, pilling on the questions.
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Alternate spelling and such?
I asked for assistance with my concerns. And prayers. I appreciate you don't understand, again.
God Bless.
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As Athanasius said, all history was at one time oral. Finding various versions of oral history memorialized eventually into writing does not make the earliest written version “true” or the “source” of later written texts
If all of the text have some similarities, it is logical to assume some common actual historical antecedent regardless of the manner of storytelling depicted
Consider Tolkien’s use of the fall of Melchior in the Silmarillion as a subsequent allusion to Ezekiel and the fall of Lucifer, as a poor analogy
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Alternate spelling and such?
I asked for assistance with my concerns. And prayers. I appreciate you don't understand, again.
God Bless.
Your copy/paste:
"The first five books are credited to Moshe, or Moses"
"Alternate Spellings: Enūma eliš"
As RK points out, I replied to this question:
"Basically, I'm conflicted and worried. What if it's all man made? Because of the aforementioned Sumerian histories that by thousands of years predate the Bible that contains textual references from those Sumerian tablets?"
So, what are your thoughts?
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As Athanasius said, all history was at one time oral. Finding various versions of oral history memorialized eventually into writing does not make the earliest written version “true” or the “source” of later written texts
If all of the text have some similarities, it is logical to assume some common actual historical antecedent regardless of the manner of storytelling depicted
Consider Tolkien’s use of the fall of Melchior in the Silmarillion as a subsequent allusion to Ezekiel and the fall of Lucifer, as a poor analogy
Tolkien is irrelevant to this discussion. Just as would be the 7 deadly sins being depicted in the classic TV series, Gilligan's Island.
I think the matter of precedent is an issue here. The Cuneiform text of ancient Sumerian culture precedes any other historical writing. If from that source of origin the subsequent texts contained in Genesis appear similar I think it then becomes an issue as regards the divine inspiration Moshe, which is actually a verb, the Hebrew name for Moses, received.
If copied from Sumerian texts was God then the inspiration for the Sumerian culture prior to the Hebrews? Especially when there were no Jews yet extant when Genesis came to be.
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I think it's important to say that faith is a very key factor. If one believes that the bible is the inerrant word of God, then there are no question. If one doesn't believe that, then there are no answers.
You raise a specific issue but there are a large number of such issues that one could potentially raise. Dinosaur bones for example. Or the size of the universe. Or anything really.
Now, onto the specific issue that you're raising here about Sumerian texts. If the world was really created some 5700 someodd years ago, and as the bible states, were dispersed across the globe after the incident with the Tower of Babel, would it be logical that they would retain some knowledge of the truth, however muddled? Maybe the Sumerian text come from the bible and not the other way around? I mean it's certainly one way to look at it.
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As Athanasius said, all history was at one time oral. Finding various versions of oral history memorialized eventually into writing does not make the earliest written version “true” or the “source” of later written texts
If all of the text have some similarities, it is logical to assume some common actual historical antecedent regardless of the manner of storytelling depicted
Consider Tolkien’s use of the fall of Melchior in the Silmarillion as a subsequent allusion to Ezekiel and the fall of Lucifer, as a poor analogy
Tolkien is irrelevant to this discussion. Just as would be the 7 deadly sins being depicted in the classic TV series, Gilligan's Island.
I think the matter of precedent is an issue here. The Cuneiform text of ancient Sumerian culture precedes any other historical writing. If from that source of origin the subsequent texts contained in Genesis appear similar I think it then becomes an issue as regards the divine inspiration Moshe, which is actually a verb, the Hebrew name for Moses, received.
If copied from Sumerian texts was God then the inspiration for the Sumerian culture prior to the Hebrews? Especially when there were no Jews yet extant when Genesis came to be.
You are still falling for the errant leap of logic that presupposes that “earlier, therefore original source” when both sources claim oral history as source, and further, that the Bible claims divine origin and inspiration and the other early texts do not
Tolkien is, now that I think about it, a perfect example
You believe that Moses is Tolkien when the reality both rely upon earlier oral history
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I think it's important to say that faith is a very key factor. If one believes that the bible is the inerrant word of God, then there are no question. If one doesn't believe that, then there are no answers.
You raise a specific issue but there are a large number of such issues that one could potentially raise. Dinosaur bones for example. Or the size of the universe. Or anything really.
Now, onto the specific issue that you're raising here about Sumerian texts. If the world was really created some 5700 someodd years ago, and as the bible states, were dispersed across the globe after the incident with the Tower of Babel, would it be logical that they would retain some knowledge of the truth, however muddled? Maybe the Sumerian text come from the bible and not the other way around? I mean it's certainly one way to look at it.
I would submit that there is no thing in the Bible that indicates the world was created 5700 some odd years ago.
As pertains to your reference to the tower of Babel, that too is in ancient Sumerian texts. As noted in the OP and my follow-up reply to another member, the Sumerian Cuneiform texts are dated before Genesis.
And we know of course the history of the Bible itself so to know it is not inerrant. Man is errant. God is perfect. While God inspired the Bible as we take on faith, we know man played our part in its creation. Think of how many "versions" of God's word there are extant in the world today.
How many denominations, branches of faith, sprang from holding faith in the eternal word of our perfect Father. How many of those are named after men who deemed themselves worthy of being the father of those ideologies/denominations.
Faith is important yes. However, I think if we ignore fact in order to cleave to faith we do no service to ourselves or to God who gave us the intellect to seek and find answers he inspired in us as questions first.
Proverbs 20:5
A plan in the heart of a man is like deep water,
But a man of understanding draws it out.
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As Athanasius said, all history was at one time oral. Finding various versions of oral history memorialized eventually into writing does not make the earliest written version “true” or the “source” of later written texts
If all of the text have some similarities, it is logical to assume some common actual historical antecedent regardless of the manner of storytelling depicted
Consider Tolkien’s use of the fall of Melchior in the Silmarillion as a subsequent allusion to Ezekiel and the fall of Lucifer, as a poor analogy
Tolkien is irrelevant to this discussion. Just as would be the 7 deadly sins being depicted in the classic TV series, Gilligan's Island.
I think the matter of precedent is an issue here. The Cuneiform text of ancient Sumerian culture precedes any other historical writing. If from that source of origin the subsequent texts contained in Genesis appear similar I think it then becomes an issue as regards the divine inspiration Moshe, which is actually a verb, the Hebrew name for Moses, received.
If copied from Sumerian texts was God then the inspiration for the Sumerian culture prior to the Hebrews? Especially when there were no Jews yet extant when Genesis came to be.
You are still falling for the errant leap of logic that presupposes that “earlier, therefore original source” when both sources claim oral history as source, and further, that the Bible claims divine origin and inspiration and the other early texts do not.
I think the historic record itself suffices as pertains to material historic texts. Cuneiform tablets exist and are dated. Genesis scrolls exist in pieces, as do the tablets of Sumer in many respects, and are dated.
Man proclaims divine inspiration. While the physical material record stands forever. Or as long as the materials written upon last.
Tolkien is, now that I think about it, a perfect example
As I know you believed when you introduced him into this. I respectfully disagree.
You believe that Moses is Tolkien
I have never stated that.
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You believe that Moses used others source material for writing Genesis, if you believe that Moses wrote Genesis at all, right?
How is this different from Tolkien using Ezekiel and certain Nordic source materials as the inspiration for the Valar and the story of the fall of Melchior?
You still are insisting that an older written text MUST be the original source material for a later text. Do you agree that if two written texts draw from an even earlier oral tradition that the age of the written text is immaterial?
And scripture both in the old and new testaments claims inspiration and inerrancy
There is nothing in the history of the Bible to demand otherwise despite all the machinations of the liberal scholars of the 18th and 19th centuries
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I would submit that there is no thing in the Bible that indicates the world was created 5700 some odd years ago.
How old is the world, in your estimation.
How many denominations, branches of faith, sprang from holding faith in the eternal word of our perfect Father. How many of those are named after men who deemed themselves worthy of being the father of those ideologies/denominations.
So you think that there are many true religions? Or am I not understanding you.
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This is a bit of a red herring
The existence of multiple faiths or denomination that claim a biblical foundation is immaterial to the question of the historicity and fidelity of the written texts— both Jewish and Christian tradition texts so let’s try to stay focused there.
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I agree with those who state that *when* ancient records appear, before or after Genesis was written, seems immaterial to the question of faith in any of them. The one who introduced the importance of *faith* in them is right, therefore. And the idea that faith takes no consideration of the quality or consistency of the material is not correct--faith is not irrational or disconnected from the facts and design of the material.
If Genesis appears as much a "tale" as any other account of Creation, the Flood, the Tower of Babel, etc., then one's faith would have to take into consideration the differences between the accounts. Jesus and Moses appear as much a "tale" as any other legend of gods. And yet the design of Jesus' and Moses' messages are very different from the messages of the Greek or Roman gods.
If you are to have solid faith in the Bible, OT or NT or both, then your faith will have to be based on the message. And revelation is based on a synthesis between God's word and Man's word. The message must speak to your heart from God and correlate with the facts and with your own experience. Good luck!
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If Genesis appears as much a "tale" as any other account of Creation, the Flood, the Tower of Babel, etc., then one's faith would have to take into consideration the differences between the accounts.
A major difference is that the other creation accounts generally have human beings as incidental to creation. Our bible has human beings as the entire point of creation.
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If Genesis appears as much a "tale" as any other account of Creation, the Flood, the Tower of Babel, etc., then one's faith would have to take into consideration the differences between the accounts.
A major difference is that the other creation accounts generally have human beings as incidental to creation. Our bible has human beings as the entire point of creation.
Excellent point
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If you are to have solid faith in the Bible, OT or NT or both, then your faith will have to be based on the message.
No, my faith will be based on the author
And revelation is based on a synthesis between God's word and Man's word. The message must speak to your heart from God and correlate with the facts and with your own experience. Good luck!
Revelation is based on God's word alone. And it's truthfulness stands regardless of what my heart or my own experience says.
And this is a detour from the original topic.
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Moving this to Apologetics since the follow-ups betray the OP, as expected.
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If Genesis appears as much a "tale" as any other account of Creation, the Flood, the Tower of Babel, etc., then one's faith would have to take into consideration the differences between the accounts.
A major difference is that the other creation accounts generally have human beings as incidental to creation. Our bible has human beings as the entire point of creation.
Excellent point
Actually, I was Johnny come lately, and was just following up and confirming what you and Fenris said. I have to give due credit!
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You believe that Moses used others source material for writing Genesis, if you believe that Moses wrote Genesis at all, right?
You may find this informative: https://www3.nd.edu/~undpress/excerpts/P01137-ex.pdf edited because the former url is no longer accessible. I should have checked that in my library before posting.
New link, Philo's biography of Moshe/Moses: http://www.earlyjewishwritings.com/text/philo/book25.html
The Jewish tradition ascribes original authorship of the Pentateuch, a Greek term, to Moses,the Rabbinic tradition subscribes to non-Mosaic redaction.
How is this different from Tolkien using Ezekiel and certain Nordic source materials as the inspiration for the Valar and the story of the fall of Melchior?
J.R.R Tolkien was a Roman Catholic. https://theimaginativeconservative.org/2021/11/jrr-tolkien-roman-catholic-church-bradley-birzer.html
You still are insisting that an older written text MUST be the original source material for a later text. Do you agree that if two written texts draw from an even earlier oral tradition that the age of the written text is immaterial?
You appear to ignore actual historic record.
Why you would introduce J.R.R is a mystery to me because there is no semblance of relationship whatever.
However, being the Sumerian Cuneiform texts are the oldest extant writings in history, thinking an oral tradition that may have been extant earlier and therein nullifies the Cuneiform texts is indefensible. An oral tradition pre-Cuneiform would still predate Genesis.
The fact that the oral, as you prefer to think, tradition of Sumerian culture predated the accounts of Genesis is still relevant to the fact that the Genesis accounts contain that what predated Genesis. Texts that were derived from the Sumerian tablets. Be it a oral history or a written in either culture.
I won't entertain Tolkien further.
And scripture both in the old and new testaments claims inspiration and inerrancy..
That's tradition. In point of fact there is no scripture wherein it is stated outright that the Bible is inerrant. The Bible never claims to be inerrant. Its scripture states the scriptures are true. "The entirety of Your word is truth, and every one of Your righteous judgments endures forever" Psalm 119:160
There is a difference.
God knows man's part in its construction or assimilation over the centuries. He'd also know that man's ego in being empowered by God and the words that man utters leads to devilish sin.
As we know is in evidence in all the crusades and the inquisitions in our religion's history. Man killed to gain supremacy. God is supreme and need do no such thing. Yet the Bible was used as a weapon. And willing men as the instruments of death.
Let's take one example. King David was ordered by both God and Satan to take a census. In two different books of the Old Testament.
The pharaonic histories are not accurate per the actual record, there are scientific inaccuracies, the flat earth myth for example that is upheld by many a fundamentalist.
With regard to Moshe, Deuteronomy 34:5. It is impossible that Moshe would have written of his own death there.
And as regards the Roman Catholic church, their Bible contains 73 books, while the Protestant, that came after the Protestant revolt mind you, contains 66. Interestingly, the 1611 edition of the first KJV contained what are today referred to as the Apocrypha. Though non-Canonical even then.
And of course there's man's part in judging and decreeing the Canon itself.
There is nothing in the history of the Bible to demand otherwise despite all the machinations of the liberal scholars of the 18th and 19th centuries.
That's simply untrue. If you believe it is true post the scripture wherein it is stated the Bible is inerrant.
Thinking scholars collaborate to denounce the scripture is paranoia and indefensible when the Bible itself does not state it is perfect.
In the beginning was the word and the word was with God and the word was God.
God is the word perfect. The Bible is not.
I suggest you study the history of how we got the Bible. You may learn quite a lot you're currently unaware of.
Prior to that, a study of ancient Sumerian culture would assist in that later pursuit.
The Sumerian pictographs , as example, show our solar system with all members including Pluto. Pluto was not discovered by modern man until the early 20th century when we developed a telescope strong enough to find it.
Sumerian pictographs show the continent of Antarctica before the ice shelf appeared. Today's satellite technology has allowed us to map that continent by penetrating the ice shelf. The continent itself is identical to what is depicted in Sumerian texts.
We can't progress as a people if we refuse to acknowledge history. It's how we arrived to where we are today. By God's will and plan and predetermination for our species.
Colossians 1:15-17
(Yeshua) He is the image of the invisible God, the firstborn of all creation. For by him all things were created, in heaven and on earth, visible and invisible, whether thrones or dominions or rulers or authorities—all things were created through him and for him. And he is before all things, and in him all things hold together.
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I would submit that there is no thing in the Bible that indicates the world was created 5700 some odd years ago.
How old is the world, in your estimation.
Millions if not billions of years old.
So you think that there are many true religions? Or am I not understanding you.
You're not understanding me.
My remarks that you excerpted and that I deleted so as not to lend confusion to this response had no semblance of reference to other religions. That excerpt and my remarks addressed the denominations that exist today and the many versions of the Bible.
FYI: Denominations per this discussion refers to Christianity and Christian denominations. Denominations are understood to be a recognized autonomous branch of the Christian church.
*edited to fix quote box text error
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The Jewish tradition ascribes original authorship of the Pentateuch, a Greek term, to Moses,the Rabbinic tradition subscribes to non-Mosaic redaction.
Ummm no. The Rabbinic tradition subscribes to the idea that God Himself wrote what you are calling the "five books of Moses".
However, being the Sumerian Cuneiform texts are the oldest extant writings in history, thinking an oral tradition that may have been extant earlier and therein nullifies the Cuneiform texts is indefensible. An oral tradition pre-Cuneiform would still predate Genesis.
But why would that be a problem. Nobody believes that the Pentateuch was given to Adam. It was given to the Hebrews during their journey to Israel. That doesn't mean that parts of it weren't carried down orally earlier, and that being the case, corrupted parts of it could make their way into other cultures such as Sumeria.
That's simply untrue. If you believe it is true post the scripture wherein it is stated the Bible is inerrant.
Thinking scholars collaborate to denounce the scripture is paranoia and indefensible when the Bible itself does not state it is perfect.
If the bible is the word of God then by definition it must be inerrant and perfect. If you don't believe that it's the word of God then who cares what it says?
I'm not sure where you are on this curve.
I suggest you study the history of how we got the Bible. You may learn quite a lot you're currently unaware of.
Prior to that, a study of ancient Sumerian culture would assist in that later pursuit.
The Sumerian pictographs , as example, show our solar system with all members including Pluto. Pluto was not discovered by modern man until the early 20th century when we developed a telescope strong enough to find it.
Sumerian pictographs show the continent of Antarctica before the ice shelf appeared. Today's satellite technology has allowed us to map that continent by penetrating the ice shelf. The continent itself is identical to what is depicted in Sumerian texts.
This is news to me. Proof please?
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Millions if not billions of years old.
And yet Adam only lived 5700 years ago.
Or perhaps we are descended from apes?
My remarks that you excerpted and that I deleted so as not to lend confusion to this response had no semblance of reference to other religions. That excerpt and my remarks addressed the denominations that exist today and the many versions of the Bible.
FYI: Denominations per this discussion refers to Christianity and Christian denominations. Denominations are understood to be a recognized autonomous branch of the Christian church.
I still don't understand what you meant by this, then
How many denominations, branches of faith, sprang from holding faith in the eternal word of our perfect Father. How many of those are named after men who deemed themselves worthy of being the father of those ideologies/denominations.
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If Genesis appears as much a "tale" as any other account of Creation, the Flood, the Tower of Babel, etc., then one's faith would have to take into consideration the differences between the accounts.
A major difference is that the other creation accounts generally have human beings as incidental to creation. Our bible has human beings as the entire point of creation.
I believe creation was to display God's sovereignty, will, power, and zeal for his own glory. As is represented in numerous scriptures throughout the Old Testament.
If humans were the entire point of creation, being God after creating the world and all things in six days and then gazing upon his creation and judging it good, there would have been no tree of knowledge planted yet forbidden to be consumed.
No serpent would have gained access to that which God judged good even with a forbidden fruit in the middle of the garden of his creation. And there would have been immediate forgiveness of Adam and Eve after they innocently fell prey to the serpents machinations. When the serpent already knew the prohibition concerning the tree of knowledge and entered into Eden and exploited the innocence of Adam and Eve to his benefit.
Adam and Eve knew not good from bad, evil from righteousness. Once they ate of that tree's fruit they became like unto God, as God stated. Then knowing good from evil.
By one man, Adam, sin entered this world. Which is telling us, evil predated Eden. Of course! Lucifer sinned in Heaven when he led a war against God there. How does sin exist in that which those forgiven their sins are destined?
God has predestined all things according to his will and plan and due to his zeal for his own glory.
For the earth will be filled with the knowledge of the glory of the Lord as the waters cover the sea. Habakkuk 2:14
*Habakkuk is the only OT book consisting entirely of a dialogue between God and a human individual. While other books reference partial communications.*
From him and through him and to him are all things. To him be glory forever. Amen. Romans 11:36
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If humans were the entire point of creation, being God after creating the world and all things in six days and then gazing upon his creation and judging it good, there would have been no tree of knowledge planted yet forbidden to be consumed.
I don't see how that follows at all.
Yes, human beings were the entire purpose of God's creation. Specifically, human being expressing their free will. If God wanted an empty universe or a universe of robots who do exactly as He asks, He could have created that. But He didn't. He created human beings who are capable of intellect and thus of making choices. Hopefully the right choices. But choices nonetheless. That's why we were created last. The pinnacle.
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God has predestined all things according to his will and plan and due to his zeal for his own glory.
God is perfect. God has no need for glory. You're mistaking Him for a human being that has desires and needs.
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The Jewish tradition ascribes original authorship of the Pentateuch, a Greek term, to Moses,the Rabbinic tradition subscribes to non-Mosaic redaction.
Ummm no. The Rabbinic tradition subscribes to the idea that God Himself wrote what you are calling the "five books of Moses".
However, being the Sumerian Cuneiform texts are the oldest extant writings in history, thinking an oral tradition that may have been extant earlier and therein nullifies the Cuneiform texts is indefensible. An oral tradition pre-Cuneiform would still predate Genesis.
But why would that be a problem. Nobody believes that the Pentateuch was given to Adam. It was given to the Hebrews during their journey to Israel. That doesn't mean that parts of it weren't carried down orally earlier, and that being the case, corrupted parts of it could make their way into other cultures such as Sumeria.
That's simply untrue. If you believe it is true post the scripture wherein it is stated the Bible is inerrant.
Thinking scholars collaborate to denounce the scripture is paranoia and indefensible when the Bible itself does not state it is perfect.
If the bible is the word of God then by definition it must be inerrant and perfect. If you don't believe that it's the word of God then who cares what it says?
I'm not sure where you are on this curve.
I suggest you study the history of how we got the Bible. You may learn quite a lot you're currently unaware of.
Prior to that, a study of ancient Sumerian culture would assist in that later pursuit.
The Sumerian pictographs , as example, show our solar system with all members including Pluto. Pluto was not discovered by modern man until the early 20th century when we developed a telescope strong enough to find it.
Sumerian pictographs show the continent of Antarctica before the ice shelf appeared. Today's satellite technology has allowed us to map that continent by penetrating the ice shelf. The continent itself is identical to what is depicted in Sumerian texts.
This is news to me. Proof please?
We're going in circles which is not productive. Believe as you insist is true. And God bless.
As per your last request, no. I won't provide proof. You presume to make statements about Bible scholars etc... without proof.
If you wish to know about the Sumerian historic texts seek them out. The onus is usually on the one making the claim. However, since you avoid that in your writings, I reciprocate.
It isn't hard to find.
Ancient Sumerian pictograph Antarctica before the ice, is a search term that should suffice to start you on your journey should you deem it a worthy undertaking.
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God has predestined all things according to his will and plan and due to his zeal for his own glory.
God is perfect. God has no need for glory. You're mistaking Him for a human being that has desires and needs.
You're making the mistake of not being familiar with the scriptures wherein God's desire for glory are stated numerous times in both Old and New Testaments.
One example by Jesus, who was the Father, himself:
“Now is my soul troubled. And what shall I say? ‘Father, save me from this hour?’ But for this purpose I have come to this hour. Father, glorify your name.’ Then a voice came from heaven, ‘I have glorified it, and I will glorify it again’ " John 12:27-28
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We're going in circles which is not productive.
We're not going in circles. I've made perfectly legitimate points that you don't wish to address.
As per your last request, no. I won't provide proof. You presume to make statements about Bible scholars etc... without proof.
I don't "presume" to do anything. I know about Rabbinical Judaism because I've studied it and lived it for decades. You post links to sites that provide fraudulent information.
It isn't hard to find.
Ancient Sumerian pictograph Antarctica before the ice, is a search term that should suffice to start you on your journey should you deem it a worthy undertaking.
Yup, and I get a bunch of conspiracy sites about ancient aliens visiting earth. Very worthy.
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Millions if not billions of years old.
And yet Adam only lived 5700 years ago.
Or perhaps we are descended from apes?
Do you understand the Bible is not a historic text? Though it does appear to contain references to parts of history.
My remarks that you excerpted and that I deleted so as not to lend confusion to this response had no semblance of reference to other religions. That excerpt and my remarks addressed the denominations that exist today and the many versions of the Bible.
FYI: Denominations per this discussion refers to Christianity and Christian denominations. Denominations are understood to be a recognized autonomous branch of the Christian church.
I still don't understand what you meant by this, then
How many denominations, branches of faith, sprang from holding faith in the eternal word of our perfect Father. How many of those are named after men who deemed themselves worthy of being the father of those ideologies/denominations.
OK.
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You're making the mistake of not being familiar with the scriptures wherein God's desire for glory are stated numerous times in both Old and New Testaments.
One example by Jesus, who was the Father, himself:
“Now is my soul troubled. And what shall I say? ‘Father, save me from this hour?’ But for this purpose I have come to this hour. Father, glorify your name.’ Then a voice came from heaven, ‘I have glorified it, and I will glorify it again’ " John 12:27-28
God saying that He has done something isn't the same as saying that He desires something. C'mon, you're making this too easy.
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Do you understand the Bible is not a historic text?
No, it's a religious text. But it makes claims about the creation of the world. If you don't believe those, then why do you believe anything else the bible says?
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We're going in circles which is not productive.
We're not going in circles. I've made perfectly legitimate points that you don't wish to address.
To the contrary. You ignore what I address and repeat your own thoughts. Including references to Tolkien.
As per your last request, no. I won't provide proof. You presume to make statements about Bible scholars etc... without proof.
I don't "presume" to do anything. I know about Rabbinical Judaism because I've studied it and lived it for decades. You post links to sites that provide fraudulent information.[/quote] That's slander. And you didn't read what I said. "Rabbinic tradition subscribes to non-Mosaic redaction."
It isn't hard to find.
Ancient Sumerian pictograph Antarctica before the ice, is a search term that should suffice to start you on your journey should you deem it a worthy undertaking.
Yup, and I get a bunch of conspiracy sites about ancient aliens visiting earth. Very worthy.
[/quote]
This tells me what I knew early on in your writings. You're not interested in learning beyond what you presume to know and shall be unmoved from, regardless of errors.
The archeological record and catalog isn't a conspiracy theory.
Please, continue as you are.
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Thank you all for your time. I made the mistake of thinking there were Christians here who would respect a dialog that seeks to ask for prayers, which were not at all forthcoming, and assistance in understanding.
Not cutting remarks, personal attacks, and all that is apparent in these few pages.
I appreciate your being who you are. And for that evidence allowing me to no longer waste valuable God given life's time.
Be Blessed.
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To the contrary. You ignore what I address and repeat your own thoughts. Including references to Tolkien.
That wasn't me.
That's slander.
Then don't link to sites that provide fraudulent information.
And you didn't read what I said. "Rabbinic tradition subscribes to non-Mosaic redaction."
Rabbinic tradition does nothing of the sort.
This tells me what I knew early on in your writings. You're not interested in learning beyond what you presume to know and shall be unmoved from, regardless of errors.
I am very interested in learning, which is why I surfed on in here."Ancient aliens visit Sumeria" isn't what I had in mind though.
The archeological record and catalog isn't a conspiracy theory.
:o
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Thank you all for your time. I made the mistake of thinking there were Christians here who would respect a dialog that seeks to ask for prayers, which were not at all forthcoming, and assistance in understanding.
You're not looking for prayers. You appear to be trying to undermine people's faith in the bible.
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Thank you all for your time. I made the mistake of thinking there were Christians here who would respect a dialog that seeks to ask for prayers, which were not at all forthcoming, and assistance in understanding.
Not cutting remarks, personal attacks, and all that is apparent in these few pages.
I appreciate your being who you are. And for that evidence allowing me to no longer waste valuable God given life's time.
Be Blessed.
No you made the mistake of thinking we were a bunch of post modernists
You then proceeded to assume disagreement with you is a personal attack
You never told us what you needed prayer for
You made the mistake of thinking that we would pay you on the back. tell you how smart you are, and how we are obviously a bunch of neophytes
Sorry but your post modern approach to life doesn’t impress us much
And by the way, Jesus is not the Father himself
Hope you either find someone to agree and affirm your life worldview and theology or the truth, whichever you truly seek
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Thank you all for your time. I made the mistake of thinking there were Christians here who would respect a dialog that seeks to ask for prayers, which were not at all forthcoming, and assistance in understanding.
Not cutting remarks, personal attacks, and all that is apparent in these few pages.
I appreciate your being who you are. And for that evidence allowing me to no longer waste valuable God given life's time.
Be Blessed.
Your entire entry appears to be a ruse. Don't blame us.
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Thank you all for your time. I made the mistake of thinking there were Christians here who would respect a dialog that seeks to ask for prayers, which were not at all forthcoming, and assistance in understanding.
Not cutting remarks, personal attacks, and all that is apparent in these few pages.
I appreciate your being who you are. And for that evidence allowing me to no longer waste valuable God given life's time.
Be Blessed.
We (this group) are not a voice that always speaks as one. But there was some common agreement on some matters, indicating that your concerns are based on some presumptions that do not follow logically.
If you see only with these presumptions in mind, perhaps the problem is your unwillingness to address the possibility that you're giving too much credence to ancient material that is inaccurate and too little credence to material that screams *divine revelation?* If so, it's no wonder you ask for prayer.
I'm very happy to pray that God speaks to you. He does a much better job than any of us can do! Again, it is the *message* that indicates what material gives not just facts but spiritual truth. That informs you what is likely more credible and what should be studied with a lot of skepticism.
Some things are more easily checked by science and some things are more elusive, in particular ancient material. And since science does not disprove the Bible, we should focus on the message more than on the liberal theologians who have challenged the Bible for generations and have failed time and again to prove the Bible false.
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Abigail is banned. Didn't care for the OP, hoped I was wrong, disappointed I wasn't, good riddance. Boring and obvious.
I especially don't care for anyone pretending to be learned while peddling the ideas of Sitchin. Unreal.
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Got you a tough job there. You do it well.
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The sad thing is that these folks wouldn’t try such silliness but for the fact that there are obviously hordes of “Christians” that fall for such fluffy arsenic.
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I especially don't care for anyone pretending to be learned while peddling the ideas of Sitchin. Unreal.
I hadda look this up. Yup, good call.
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I especially don't care for anyone pretending to be learned while peddling the ideas of Sitchin. Unreal.
I hadda look this up. Yup, good call.
You don't know until you know. ;) But that's the problem with these types - they think they know more than everyone else in the room.
The Sumerian pictographs , as example, show our solar system with all members including Pluto. Pluto was not discovered by modern man until the early 20th century when we developed a telescope strong enough to find it.
Of course, the Sumerians also warred with the Flood, glassed a few Forerunner planets and were responsible for the mass devolution of humanity.
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Of course, the Sumerians also warred with the Flood, glassed a few Forerunner planets and were responsible for the mass devolution of humanity.
And I like such topics. As fiction though.
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Abigail,
Just in case you ever visit again, it seems from reading your posts that your confusion comes from listening to other sources, other than listening to Jesus, who quoted the OT as truth. Beside that, other members here gave you sound reasoning why more ancient texts aren't necessarily the correct version of history.
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Abigail wasn't confused about anything.
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She sounded confused. She said she was raised Christian, but after long years of living and learning she apparently had doubts about the reliability of scripture.
I know a guy who went through the same thing after going to college. They filled his head with nonsense about the same issues (similar writings predate scripture, the earth billions of years old). He's fine now, but I'm sure a lot of people aren't.
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Yes such people exist, and Abigail was not one of them. Closing this.