Please pray and help me with this

[RabbiKnife]

You believe that Moses used others source material for writing Genesis, if you believe that Moses wrote Genesis  at all, right?

How is this different from Tolkien using Ezekiel and certain Nordic source materials as the inspiration for the Valar and the story of the fall of Melchior?

You still are insisting that an older written text MUST be the original source material for a later text.  Do you agree that if two written texts draw from an even earlier oral tradition that the age of the written text is immaterial?

And scripture both in the old and new testaments claims inspiration and inerrancy

There is nothing in the history of the Bible to demand otherwise despite all the machinations of the liberal scholars of the 18th and 19th centuries

[Fenris]

I would submit that there is no thing in the Bible that indicates the world was created 5700 some odd years ago.

How old is the world, in your estimation.

How many denominations, branches of faith, sprang from holding faith in the eternal word of our perfect Father. How many of those are named after men who deemed themselves worthy of being the father of those ideologies/denominations.
 

So you think that there are many true religions? Or am I not understanding you.

[RabbiKnife]

This is a bit of a red herring

The existence of multiple faiths or denomination that claim a biblical foundation is immaterial to the question of the historicity and fidelity of the written texts— both Jewish and Christian tradition texts so let’s try to stay focused there.

[RandyPNW]

I agree with those who state that *when* ancient records appear, before or after Genesis was written, seems immaterial to the question of faith in any of them. The one who introduced the importance of *faith* in them is right, therefore. And the idea that faith takes no consideration of the quality or consistency of the material is not correct--faith is not irrational or disconnected from the facts and design of the material.

If Genesis appears as much a "tale" as any other account of Creation, the Flood, the Tower of Babel, etc., then one's faith would have to take into consideration the differences between the accounts. Jesus and Moses appear as much a "tale" as any other legend of gods. And yet the design of Jesus' and Moses' messages are very different from the messages of the Greek or Roman gods.

If you are to have solid faith in the Bible, OT or NT or both, then your faith will have to be based on the message. And revelation is based on a synthesis between God's word and Man's word. The message must speak to your heart from God and correlate with the facts and with your own experience. Good luck!

[Fenris]

If Genesis appears as much a "tale" as any other account of Creation, the Flood, the Tower of Babel, etc., then one's faith would have to take into consideration the differences between the accounts.

A major difference is that the other creation accounts generally have human beings as incidental to creation. Our bible has human beings as the entire point of creation.

[RabbiKnife]

If Genesis appears as much a "tale" as any other account of Creation, the Flood, the Tower of Babel, etc., then one's faith would have to take into consideration the differences between the accounts.

A major difference is that the other creation accounts generally have human beings as incidental to creation. Our bible has human beings as the entire point of creation.

Excellent point

[IMINXTC]

If you are to have solid faith in the Bible, OT or NT or both, then your faith will have to be based on the message.

No, my faith will be based on the author

And revelation is based on a synthesis between God's word and Man's word. The message must speak to your heart from God and correlate with the facts and with your own experience. Good luck!

Revelation is based on God's word alone. And it's truthfulness stands regardless of what my heart or my own experience says.

And this is a detour from the original topic.

[Athanasius]

Moving this to Apologetics since the follow-ups betray the OP, as expected.

[RandyPNW]

If Genesis appears as much a "tale" as any other account of Creation, the Flood, the Tower of Babel, etc., then one's faith would have to take into consideration the differences between the accounts.

A major difference is that the other creation accounts generally have human beings as incidental to creation. Our bible has human beings as the entire point of creation.

Excellent point

Actually, I was Johnny come lately, and was just following up and confirming what you and Fenris said. I have to give due credit!

[Abigail]

You believe that Moses used others source material for writing Genesis, if you believe that Moses wrote Genesis  at all, right?

You may find this informative: https://www3.nd.edu/~undpress/excerpts/P01137-ex.pdf edited because the former url is no longer accessible. I should have checked that in my library before posting.
New link, Philo's biography of Moshe/Moses: http://www.earlyjewishwritings.com/text/philo/book25.html

The Jewish tradition ascribes original authorship of the Pentateuch, a Greek term, to Moses,the  Rabbinic tradition subscribes to non-Mosaic redaction.

How is this different from Tolkien using Ezekiel and certain Nordic source materials as the inspiration for the Valar and the story of the fall of Melchior?

J.R.R Tolkien was a Roman Catholic. https://theimaginativeconservative.org/2021/11/jrr-tolkien-roman-catholic-church-bradley-birzer.html

You still are insisting that an older written text MUST be the original source material for a later text.  Do you agree that if two written texts draw from an even earlier oral tradition that the age of the written text is immaterial?

You appear to ignore actual historic record.

 Why you would introduce J.R.R is a mystery to me because there is no semblance of relationship whatever.

However, being the Sumerian Cuneiform texts are the oldest extant writings in history, thinking an oral tradition that may have been extant earlier and therein nullifies the Cuneiform texts is indefensible. An oral tradition pre-Cuneiform would still predate Genesis.

The fact that the oral, as you prefer to think, tradition of Sumerian culture predated the accounts of Genesis is still relevant to the fact that the Genesis accounts contain that what predated Genesis. Texts that were derived from the Sumerian tablets. Be it a oral history or a written in either culture.

I won't entertain Tolkien further.

And scripture both in the old and new testaments claims inspiration and inerrancy..

That's tradition. In point of fact there is no scripture wherein it is stated outright that the Bible is inerrant. The Bible never claims to be inerrant. Its scripture states the scriptures are true. "The entirety of Your word is truth, and every one of Your righteous judgments endures forever" Psalm 119:160 

There is a difference.

God knows man's part in its construction or assimilation over the centuries. He'd also know that man's ego in being empowered by God and the words that man utters leads to devilish sin.
As we know is in evidence in all the crusades and the inquisitions in our religion's history. Man killed to gain supremacy. God is supreme and need do no such thing. Yet the Bible was used as a weapon. And willing men as the instruments of death.

Let's take one example. King David was ordered by both God and Satan to take a census. In two different books of the Old Testament.
The pharaonic histories are not accurate per the actual record, there are scientific inaccuracies, the flat earth myth for example that is upheld by many a fundamentalist.
With regard to Moshe, Deuteronomy 34:5. It is impossible that Moshe would have written of his own death there.

And as regards the Roman Catholic church, their Bible contains 73 books, while the Protestant, that came after the Protestant revolt mind you, contains 66. Interestingly, the 1611 edition of the first KJV contained what are today referred to as the Apocrypha. Though non-Canonical even then.
And of course there's man's part in judging and decreeing the Canon itself.

 

There is nothing in the history of the Bible to demand otherwise despite all the machinations of the liberal scholars of the 18th and 19th centuries.

That's simply untrue. If you believe it is true post the scripture wherein it is stated the Bible is inerrant.
Thinking scholars collaborate to denounce the scripture is paranoia and indefensible when the Bible itself does not state it is perfect.

In the beginning was the word and the word was with God and the word was God.
God is the word perfect. The Bible is not.

I suggest you study the history of how we got the Bible. You may learn quite a lot you're currently unaware of.
Prior to that, a study of ancient Sumerian culture would assist in that later pursuit.

The Sumerian pictographs , as example, show our solar system with all members including Pluto. Pluto was not discovered by modern man until the early 20th century when we developed a telescope strong enough to find it.

Sumerian pictographs show the continent of Antarctica before the ice shelf appeared. Today's satellite technology has allowed us to map that continent by penetrating the ice shelf. The continent itself is identical to what is depicted in Sumerian texts.

We can't progress as a people if we refuse to acknowledge history. It's how we arrived to where we are today. By God's will and plan and predetermination for our species.

Colossians 1:15-17
(Yeshua) He is the image of the invisible God, the firstborn of all creation. For by him all things were created, in heaven and on earth, visible and invisible, whether thrones or dominions or rulers or authorities—all things were created through him and for him. And he is before all things, and in him all things hold together.

[Abigail]

I would submit that there is no thing in the Bible that indicates the world was created 5700 some odd years ago.

How old is the world, in your estimation.

Millions if not billions of years old.


 

So you think that there are many true religions? Or am I not understanding you.

You're not understanding me.

My remarks that you excerpted and that I deleted so as not to lend confusion to this response had no semblance of reference to other religions. That excerpt and my remarks addressed the denominations that exist today and the many versions of the Bible.

FYI: Denominations per this discussion refers to Christianity and Christian denominations. Denominations are understood to be a recognized autonomous branch of the Christian church.

*edited to fix quote box text error

[Fenris]

The Jewish tradition ascribes original authorship of the Pentateuch, a Greek term, to Moses,the  Rabbinic tradition subscribes to non-Mosaic redaction.

Ummm no. The Rabbinic tradition subscribes to the idea that God Himself wrote what you are calling the "five books of Moses". 

However, being the Sumerian Cuneiform texts are the oldest extant writings in history, thinking an oral tradition that may have been extant earlier and therein nullifies the Cuneiform texts is indefensible. An oral tradition pre-Cuneiform would still predate Genesis.

But why would that be a problem. Nobody believes that the Pentateuch was given to Adam. It was given to the Hebrews during their journey to Israel. That doesn't mean that parts of it weren't carried down orally earlier, and that being the case, corrupted parts of it could make their way into other cultures such as Sumeria.

That's simply untrue. If you believe it is true post the scripture wherein it is stated the Bible is inerrant.
Thinking scholars collaborate to denounce the scripture is paranoia and indefensible when the Bible itself does not state it is perfect.

If the bible is the word of God then by definition it must be inerrant and perfect. If you don't believe that it's the word of God then who cares what it says?

I'm not sure where you are on this curve.

I suggest you study the history of how we got the Bible. You may learn quite a lot you're currently unaware of.
Prior to that, a study of ancient Sumerian culture would assist in that later pursuit.

The Sumerian pictographs , as example, show our solar system with all members including Pluto. Pluto was not discovered by modern man until the early 20th century when we developed a telescope strong enough to find it.

Sumerian pictographs show the continent of Antarctica before the ice shelf appeared. Today's satellite technology has allowed us to map that continent by penetrating the ice shelf. The continent itself is identical to what is depicted in Sumerian texts.

This is news to me. Proof please?

[Fenris]

Millions if not billions of years old.

And yet Adam only lived 5700 years ago.

Or perhaps we are descended from apes?


 

My remarks that you excerpted and that I deleted so as not to lend confusion to this response had no semblance of reference to other religions. That excerpt and my remarks addressed the denominations that exist today and the many versions of the Bible.

FYI: Denominations per this discussion refers to Christianity and Christian denominations. Denominations are understood to be a recognized autonomous branch of the Christian church.

I still don't understand what you meant by this, then

How many denominations, branches of faith, sprang from holding faith in the eternal word of our perfect Father. How many of those are named after men who deemed themselves worthy of being the father of those ideologies/denominations.

[Abigail]

If Genesis appears as much a "tale" as any other account of Creation, the Flood, the Tower of Babel, etc., then one's faith would have to take into consideration the differences between the accounts.

A major difference is that the other creation accounts generally have human beings as incidental to creation. Our bible has human beings as the entire point of creation.

I believe creation was to display God's sovereignty, will, power, and zeal for his own glory. As is represented in numerous scriptures throughout the Old Testament.
If humans were the entire point of creation, being God after creating the world and all things in six days and then gazing upon his creation and judging it good, there would have been no tree of knowledge planted yet forbidden to be consumed.

No serpent would have gained access to that which God judged good even with a forbidden fruit in the middle of the garden of his creation. And there would have been immediate forgiveness of Adam and Eve after they innocently fell prey to the serpents machinations. When the serpent already knew the prohibition concerning the tree of knowledge and entered into Eden and exploited the innocence of Adam and Eve to his benefit.

Adam and Eve knew not good from bad, evil from righteousness. Once they ate of that tree's fruit they became like unto God, as God stated. Then knowing good from evil.

By one man, Adam, sin entered this world. Which is telling us, evil predated Eden. Of course! Lucifer sinned in Heaven when he led a war against God there. How does sin exist in that which those forgiven their sins are destined?
God has predestined all things according to his will and plan and due to his zeal for his own glory.


For the earth will be filled with the knowledge of the glory of the Lord as the waters cover the sea.  Habakkuk 2:14
*Habakkuk is the only OT book consisting entirely of a dialogue between God and a human individual. While other books reference partial communications.*

From him and through him and to him are all things. To him be glory forever. Amen.  Romans 11:36

[Fenris]

If humans were the entire point of creation, being God after creating the world and all things in six days and then gazing upon his creation and judging it good, there would have been no tree of knowledge planted yet forbidden to be consumed.

I don't see how that follows at all.

Yes, human beings were the entire purpose of God's creation. Specifically, human being expressing their free will. If God wanted an empty universe or a universe of robots who do exactly as He asks, He could have created that. But He didn't. He created human beings who are capable of intellect and thus of making choices. Hopefully the right choices. But choices nonetheless. That's why we were created last. The pinnacle.