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Bible Talk => Eschatology => Topic started by: RandyPNW on September 14, 2021, 02:29:50 PM
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A different view of Dan 9.
I'm seeing the 70 Weeks of Dan 9 a little differently than I have been. And I think it may make reading it a little more cohesive and readable, which should be what an account is all about.
Dan 9.24 “Seventy ‘sevens’ are decreed for your people and your holy city to finish transgression, to put an end to sin, to atone for wickedness, to bring in everlasting righteousness, to seal up vision and prophecy and to anoint the Most Holy Place.
25 “Know and understand this: From the time the word goes out to restore and rebuild Jerusalem until the Anointed One, the ruler, comes, there will be seven ‘sevens,’ and sixty-two ‘sevens.’ It will be rebuilt with streets and a trench, but in times of trouble. 26 After the sixty-two ‘sevens,’ the Anointed One will be put to death and will have nothing. The people of the ruler who will come will destroy the city and the sanctuary. The end will come like a flood: War will continue until the end, and desolations have been decreed. 27 He will confirm a covenant with many for one ‘seven.’ In the middle of the ‘seven’ he will put an end to sacrifice and offering. And at the temple he will set up an abomination that causes desolation, until the end that is decreed is poured out on him."
In vss. 26-27 there is a central character, the "ruler who will come," which I believe refers to the Roman leader--not a specific leader, but basically a position. He will do several things, it appears.
1) He will have his people destroy Jerusalem and the temple.
2) He will confirm a covenant with many for a Week, presumably of years.
3) He will put an end to sacrifice and offering in the middle of the Week.
4) He will set up an abomination that causes desolation.
What's different in my position now is that I used to think Christ was the one who confirms a covenant with many for a Week, and put an end to sacrifice and offering in the middle of the Week. But that seems to confuse the cohesiveness of the discourse, and muddy who is doing what. If we see all of the elements being orchestrated by a single entity, the Roman leadership, then it makes cohesive sense, and the prophecy seems to flow more evenly.
So how did the Roman leader(s) make this happen? He brought about the destruction of Jerusalem and the temple from 70-135 AD. Leading up to this, Rome initially allowed the Jews to continue under their temple covenant during the ministry of Christ, which lasted 3.5 years. This was the 70th Week of the 70 Weeks Prophecy.
Then a Roman leader, Pontius Pilate, put Christ to death in the middle of this 70th Week, since Jesus died apparently after only 3.5 years of ministry--half of a Week. This put an end to divine acceptance of sacrifices and offerings made at the temple. The veil was rent at Jesus' death.
Finally, a Roman general set up an Army around Jerusalem and the temple, presenting an "abomination of desolation." It was a display of raw pagan power, set to destroy God's temple. There were actually 2 Roman generals involved in this, Cestius Gallus in 66 AD and Titus in 70 AD.
This seems to allow the passage to flow more smoothly in the vein of its context. The context, largely, has to do with the future of the temple and with the coming of Messiah.
Daniel is praying about the restoration of the temple, and God sends an angel to explain that over a 70 Weeks period the temple will be restored and remain as such until the coming of Messiah.
The rise of Rome, the 4th Kingdom Daniel mentioned earlier in chs. 2 and 7, will cooperate with this covenant in the time of Messiah, who comes in the 70th Week. During the time of Jesus, the Romans will allow the Gospel of Messiah to be disseminated until he is judged and crucified.
The "end that is decreed" is either one of two options. Either this "end" is something decreed to end the temple by the "ruler who will come." Or, this end is something that will come to Rome itself, taking place in 476 AD. It depends on how the words apply.
Roman leadership did not immediately come to an end, but in 476 AD it did come to an end. The Roman imperial tradition continued in the East, and was later restored in the West. But the Western branch of the ancient Roman Empire did come to an end.
But the context seems rather to have to do with the cessation of Jewish worship, and perhaps the reference was to this, which happened at the destruction of the temple in 70 AD? After all, no immediate vengeance was poured out upon the Roman perpetrator of this judgment.
"And at the temple he will set up an abomination that causes desolation, until the end that is decreed is poured out on him."
The word "him" here may also be translated at "it," apparently. As such, it may be rendered, more properly, as...
"And at the temple he will set up an abomination that causes desolation, until the end that is decreed is poured out on IT."
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A different view of Dan 9.
I'm seeing the 70 Weeks of Dan 9 a little differently than I have been. And I think it may make reading it a little more cohesive and readable, which should be what an account is all about.
Dan 9.24 “Seventy ‘sevens’ are decreed for your people and your holy city to finish transgression, to put an end to sin, to atone for wickedness, to bring in everlasting righteousness, to seal up vision and prophecy and to anoint the Most Holy Place.
I believe the holy city being spoken of is the new Jerusalem. The one seven divided in two are, first the ministry of the Messiah and then, the ministry of the Messiahs followers, the second 3.5 years as mirroring our Lord's ministry, really a continuation of his ministry, which finished transgression, put an end to sin, atoned for wickedness, brought in everlasting righteousness.
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A different view of Dan 9.
I'm seeing the 70 Weeks of Dan 9 a little differently than I have been. And I think it may make reading it a little more cohesive and readable, which should be what an account is all about.
Dan 9.24 “Seventy ‘sevens’ are decreed for your people and your holy city to finish transgression, to put an end to sin, to atone for wickedness, to bring in everlasting righteousness, to seal up vision and prophecy and to anoint the Most Holy Place.
I believe the holy city being spoken of is the new Jerusalem. The one seven divided in two are, first the ministry of the Messiah and then, the ministry of the Messiahs followers, the second 3.5 years as mirroring our Lord's ministry, really a continuation of his ministry, which finished transgression, put an end to sin, atoned for wickedness, brought in everlasting righteousness.
I would be uncomfortable adopting such an unusual reading. The 2 periods of 3.5 years is commonly expressed, but the reference to New Jerusalem here isn't something I've heard before. Where did you get this idea from?
But thanks for weighing in. I don't have a working knowledge of the Hebrew language, and I'm just sort of throwing it out there to see if there are any complaints about this interpretation, based on the Hebrew language.
I'm talking to my brother about it right now, who does have a working knowledge of Hebrew. He did have some suggestions for determining whether the pronouns can be used in this way.
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I would be uncomfortable adopting such an unusual reading. The 2 periods of 3.5 years is commonly expressed, but the reference to New Jerusalem here isn't something I've heard before. Where did you get this idea from?
From Dan.9:24,
Dan 9.24 “Seventy ‘sevens’ are decreed for your people and your holy city....
And I John saw the holy city, new Jerusalem Rev.21:2
And what the angel tells Daniel (ending trangression, bringing in everlasting righteousness, etc.) is through Jesus.
Things like trampling underfoot the holy city for 3 1/2 years could easily represent how Christ was spiken against, persecuted, executed, during his ministry. The saints (the holy city), appear to be overcome by the beast, but because our Lord is in us (which is the reason for the hatred), the beast cannot truly destroy God's city.
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I would be uncomfortable adopting such an unusual reading. The 2 periods of 3.5 years is commonly expressed, but the reference to New Jerusalem here isn't something I've heard before. Where did you get this idea from?
From Dan.9:24,
Dan 9.24 “Seventy ‘sevens’ are decreed for your people and your holy city....
And I John saw the holy city, new Jerusalem Rev.21:2
And what the angel tells Daniel (ending trangression, bringing in everlasting righteousness, etc.) is through Jesus.
Things like trampling underfoot the holy city for 3 1/2 years could easily represent how Christ was spiken against, persecuted, executed, during his ministry. The saints (the holy city), appear to be overcome by the beast, but because our Lord is in us (which is the reason for the hatred), the beast cannot truly destroy God's city.
I'm trying to get a grasp of how far you go in interpreting "Jerusalem" as the "New Jerusalem." Are you interpreting the New Jerusalem as being in Dan 9, in Luke 21, and in Rev 11, as well as in Rev 21? If so, I don't understand how you distinguish between the city of Jerusalem on a map from the New Jerusalem as a city that arrives *after* Christ's return?
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The new Jerusalem arrived almost 2000 years ago.
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I'm trying to get a grasp of how far you go in interpreting "Jerusalem" as the "New Jerusalem." Are you interpreting the New Jerusalem as being in Dan 9, in Luke 21, and in Rev 11, as well as in Rev 21? If so, I don't understand how you distinguish between the city of Jerusalem on a map from the New Jerusalem as a city that arrives *after* Christ's return?
The holy city doesn't arrive after our Lord's return. It's completed in him before he returns. It's where we as believers are brought to and become part of by faith in Jesus,
But ye are come unto mount Sion, and unto the city of the living God, the heavenly Jerusalem, and to an innumerable company of angels, Heb.12:22
Jesus said,
In your patience possess ye your souls. Lk.21:19
He said this because believers would be under temptation from intense persecution to fall away (see also Rev.13:10, 14:12.
In Lk.21:20, we don't need to run from persecution because of Lk.21:18. Lk.21:21 is is comparable to Lot leaving Sodom, separating himself from the destruction coming on the ungodly. Or Zech.14:5, which speaks of a run to Christ for protection.
Rev.11 is the same type of symbology, where the church is persecuted as Christ was during his ministry (3 1/2 years). The 2 witnesses being symbolic of the truth (Jn.8:17), as the Father and Son are in believers. The fire proceeding from the witnesses mouths being the gospels effect on the unrepentant (Jn.12:48).
It's all there. He's just saying it in different ways.
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I'm trying to get a grasp of how far you go in interpreting "Jerusalem" as the "New Jerusalem." Are you interpreting the New Jerusalem as being in Dan 9, in Luke 21, and in Rev 11, as well as in Rev 21? If so, I don't understand how you distinguish between the city of Jerusalem on a map from the New Jerusalem as a city that arrives *after* Christ's return?
The holy city doesn't arrive after our Lord's return. It's completed in him before he returns. It's where we as believers are brought to and become part of by faith in Jesus,
But ye are come unto mount Sion, and unto the city of the living God, the heavenly Jerusalem, and to an innumerable company of angels, Heb.12:22
Jesus said,
In your patience possess ye your souls. Lk.21:19
He said this because believers would be under temptation from intense persecution to fall away (see also Rev.13:10, 14:12.
In Lk.21:20, we don't need to run from persecution because of Lk.21:18. Lk.21:21 is is comparable to Lot leaving Sodom, separating himself from the destruction coming on the ungodly. Or Zech.14:5, which speaks of a run to Christ for protection.
Rev.11 is the same type of symbology, where the church is persecuted as Christ was during his ministry (3 1/2 years). The 2 witnesses being symbolic of the truth (Jn.8:17), as the Father and Son are in believers. The fire proceeding from the witnesses mouths being the gospels effect on the unrepentant (Jn.12:48).
It's all there. He's just saying it in different ways.
You should realize it's not that simple. Certain truths of the Gospel are simple, but learning runs smack into human pride, and we only learn through a process. These passages speak of things Christians have to think about, because we're constantly growing, if we're walking in Christ.
I'm not suggesting that Jesus asked his Disciples to "run from persecution." But he did tell them to hightail it to the mountains or hills, to avoid judgment that was not intended, by God, for the righteous.
We do come to the heavenly Jerusalem, but it has not yet come to earth. We go to it, in a manner of speaking, by registering our names with it, by making our "reservations," so to speak.
We've become saved, and our place is assured and locked in in heaven. But we aren't there yet, and it surely hasn't yet come to us! It hasn't yet arrived on earth. The book of Revelation seems to indicate it only comes after the return of Christ, perhaps after the Millennial age.
In the meantime, the Kingdom is mysteriously present in a spiritual way, though not yet physically present. The powers of the Kingdom are partly with us, enabling us to complete our testimony of Christ's salvation to this earth.
In the end, the Kingdom will come with judgment. It will be established on the earth. But the New Jerusalem may not yet come until after a thousand years of Kingdom reign upon the earth. That's just how I look at it.
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Just wondering....
What do you think the 1st century churches thought that The Apocalypse meant when they read it?
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You should realize it's not that simple. Certain truths of the Gospel are simple, but learning runs smack into human pride, and we only learn through a process. These passages speak of things Christians have to think about, because we're constantly growing, if we're walking in Christ.
But it's walking with our Lord that destroys pride in ourselves. And the process through which we learn is also by walking with him.
I'm not suggesting that Jesus asked his Disciples to "run from persecution." But he did tell them to hightail it to the mountains or hills, to avoid judgment that was not intended, by God, for the righteous.
But judgement is avoided by faith in our Savior, not by running to a cave or some other location. Look at Exo.10:21-23, 8:21-23, 9:3-4 and so on. Leaving Babylon, or Egypt, etc. is to leave the sinful ways of those cultures,
Wherefore come out from among them, and be ye separate, saith the Lord, and touch not the unclean thing; and I will receive you, 2Cor.6:17
We do come to the heavenly Jerusalem, but it has not yet come to earth. We go to it, in a manner of speaking, by registering our names with it, by making our "reservations," so to speak.
We've become saved, and our place is assured and locked in in heaven. But we aren't there yet, and it surely hasn't yet come to us! It hasn't yet arrived on earth. The book of Revelation seems to indicate it only comes after the return of Christ, perhaps after the Millennial age.
In the meantime, the Kingdom is mysteriously present in a spiritual way, though not yet physically present. The powers of the Kingdom are partly with us, enabling us to complete our testimony of Christ's salvation to this earth.
In the end, the Kingdom will come with judgment. It will be established on the earth. But the New Jerusalem may not yet come until after a thousand years of Kingdom reign upon the earth. That's just how I look at it.
We don't see as clearly as we should, but it's here now. It just hasn't been transformed yet, but it's here. It's like when Jesus took the three and showed them how he really is.
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I won't go on about this. But if I were you, I wouldn't contradict Jesus when he told his disciples to "flee." If he told them to flee, they should do so, whether or not it "sounds spiritual."
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And I say unto you my friends, Be not afraid of them that kill the body, and after that have no more that they can do. Lk.12:4
I, even I, am he that comforteth you: who art thou, that thou shouldest be afraid of a man that shall die, and of the son of man which shall be made as grass; Isa. 51:12
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James 2.11 For he who said, “You shall not commit adultery,” also said, “You shall not murder.” If you do not commit adultery but do commit murder, you have become a lawbreaker.
You should not fear eternal judgment if you have cast your lot with Jesus. Neither should you ignore Jesus if he tells you to run when you need to run.
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some of you shall they cause to be put to death.....But there shall not an hair of your head perish. Lk.21:16,18
flee from idolatry. 1Cor.10.14
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I would be uncomfortable adopting such an unusual reading. The 2 periods of 3.5 years is commonly expressed, but the reference to New Jerusalem here isn't something I've heard before. Where did you get this idea from?
From Dan.9:24,
Dan 9.24 “Seventy ‘sevens’ are decreed for your people and your holy city....
And I John saw the holy city, new Jerusalem Rev.21:2
And what the angel tells Daniel (ending trangression, bringing in everlasting righteousness, etc.) is through Jesus.
Things like trampling underfoot the holy city for 3 1/2 years could easily represent how Christ was spiken against, persecuted, executed, during his ministry. The saints (the holy city), appear to be overcome by the beast, but because our Lord is in us (which is the reason for the hatred), the beast cannot truly destroy God's city.
I'm trying to get a grasp of how far you go in interpreting "Jerusalem" as the "New Jerusalem." Are you interpreting the New Jerusalem as being in Dan 9, in Luke 21, and in Rev 11, as well as in Rev 21? If so, I don't understand how you distinguish between the city of Jerusalem on a map from the New Jerusalem as a city that arrives *after* Christ's return?
heavenly jerusalem currettly in the heavens is not new jereusalem as all things are made new upon his return even this city. ez 40-48 we see this transition. so the holy city is the current heavenly jerusalem which comes down prior to nj
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heavenly jerusalem currettly in the heavens is not new jereusalem as all things are made new upon his return even this city. ez 40-48 we see this transition. so the holy city is the current heavenly jerusalem which comes down prior to nj
Well, that's interesting. I suppose I'll have to think about this for awhile. Jerusalem I tend to see as a metaphor for God's People presently registered by heaven as the heirs of the New Jerusalem. The New Jerusalem is not yet here because the saints need to put on new heavenly clothes before arriving *as that city.*
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James 2.11 For he who said, “You shall not commit adultery,” also said, “You shall not murder.” If you do not commit adultery but do commit murder, you have become a lawbreaker.
You should not fear eternal judgment if you have cast your lot with Jesus. Neither should you ignore Jesus if he tells you to run when you need to run.
I'm not ignoring our Lord instructing us to run. We need to run toward him, away from the ways of this world. Interpret the scriptures this way.
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James 2.11 For he who said, “You shall not commit adultery,” also said, “You shall not murder.” If you do not commit adultery but do commit murder, you have become a lawbreaker.
You should not fear eternal judgment if you have cast your lot with Jesus. Neither should you ignore Jesus if he tells you to run when you need to run.
I'm not ignoring our Lord instructing us to run. We need to run toward him, away from the ways of this world. Interpret the scriptures this way.
Of course I agree with that as a general concept. But the specific passage in the Olivet Discourse had to do, I believe, with the Jewish disciples of Jesus who Jesus wanted to avoid a judgment that was not meant for the obedient--the Jewish invasion of Jerusalem. Jesus counselled his disciples to "run" when Roman troops started gearing up to come to Israel as an invading, conquering force. They were already in charge, but they were coming to put down a Jewish revolt.
This was an old lesson that should've been learned when Babylon approached Jerusalem with the same thing in mind. Jeremiah counselled the Jews in Jerusalem to capitulate to and to surrender to the invading forces, since it had been predetermined by God as a judgment for Israel's idolatry. But the people largely ignored Jeremiah's warnings, and fled to Egypt.
This was the same thing in Jesus' day, with the Jews refusing to submit to Rome. And so, they brought on the worst judgment from God in Israel's history, since it was predetermined to last throughout the present age.
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heavenly jerusalem currettly in the heavens is not new jereusalem as all things are made new upon his return even this city. ez 40-48 we see this transition. so the holy city is the current heavenly jerusalem which comes down prior to nj
Heavenly Jerusalem and New Jerusalem are the same, because all things are made new "in Christ". Upon our Lord's return, what was previously made new in him is simply manifested for all to see.
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heavenly jerusalem currettly in the heavens is not new jereusalem as all things are made new upon his return even this city. ez 40-48 we see this transition. so the holy city is the current heavenly jerusalem which comes down prior to nj
Heavenly Jerusalem and New Jerusalem are the same, because all things are made new "in Christ". Upon our Lord's return, what was previously made new in him is simply manifested for all to see.
they are the same city but at a a diiferent state. nj does not currently exist.
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Heavenly Jerusalem and New Jerusalem are the same, because all things are made new "in Christ". Upon our Lord's return, what was previously made new in him is simply manifested for all to see.
they are the same city but at a a diiferent state. nj does not currently exist. nj is the heavenly made new
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Heavenly Jerusalem and New Jerusalem are the same, because all things are made new "in Christ". Upon our Lord's return, what was previously made new in him is simply manifested for all to see.
they are the same city but at a a diiferent state. nj does not currently exist. nj is the heavenly made new
You've obviously never been to New Jersey.
:o :o :o
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In 587 B.C. the Kingdom of Judah was conquered by the Babylonians, and Jerusalem was destroyed, including the Temple built by Solomon. Many people were forced into exile in Babylon, Daniel was taken captive along with all the other prisoners which lasted until 538 B.C., only after 49 years were they freed in the Medo-Persian reign by King Cyrus, at which time the people of Judah began to return to Israel to rebuild the Temple during 21 years. Check it in Ezra 6:v.15.
Daniel 7:v.1-4-CJB - Complete Jewish Bible
verse 1 - In the first year of Belshatzar (556 B.C.) king of Bavel(Babylon), Dani’el had a dream and visions in his head, as he was lying on his bed. He wrote the dream down, and this is his account:
verse 2 - “I had a vision at night; I saw there before me the four winds of the heaven breaking out over the Great Sea;
Comments: Great Sea -> sea is waters => waters are peoples , and nations, and multitudes, and tongues-Revelation 17:v.15; By the way, Gentile nations exclusively. Israel is an island in the middle of the waters or in the middle of the Great Sea; Israel is the dry land, it's the clay.
verse 3 - and FOUR huge animals came up out of the sea, each different from the others.
Comments: Four huge animals each different from the others, it means four different nations/peoples. Each one is different from the others, they are four Gentile different nations/peoples.
verses 4; 5; and 6
Comments: Here goes the four huge biblical kingdoms described by the prophet Daniel:
Details: In fact, one kingdom swallows the other precedent kingdom;
1 - The FIRST huge biblical kingdom-Babylon-,destroyed the kingdom of Judah and the temple of Jerusalem in 587 B.C., it was from 605-539 B.C.
2 - The SECOND huge biblical kingdom swallows the first in 539 B.C. and was from 539 - 330 B.C.
3 - The THIRD huge biblical kingdom swallows the second and what left of the first, and was from 330-146 B.C.
4 - The FOURTH huge biblical kingdom swallows the third and everything that was left from the first and second kingdoms, and the fourth was divided in two parts (represented by two legs-Daniel 2):
(1st part) the western kingdom, it lasted until 476 AD;
(2nd part) the eastern kingdom, it lasted until 1453 AD.
As we kno, the prophecy of Daniel describes the FOUR huge kingdoms as four animals:
- the FIRST as a lion;
- the SECOND as a bear,
- and the third as a leopard,
- and the fourth as a...what? Isn't there an animal for the fourth kingdom because of how horrible and ugly is the MONSTER of fourth kingdom?
verses 7 an 8
7 - After this, I looked in the night visions; and there before me was a fourth animal, dreadful, horrible, extremely strong, and with great iron teeth. It devoured, crushed and stamped its feet on what was left. It was different from all the animals that had gone before it, and it had ten (10) horns.
8 “While I was considering the (10) horns, another horn sprang up among them (11th), a little one, before which three of the first horns were plucked up by the roots. In this horn (11th horn) were eyes like human eyes and a mouth speaking arrogantly.
Comments: Very interesting these details: --> The FOURTH huge biblical kingdom swallows-PLUCKED-the third kingdom and everything that's left from the first and second kingdoms BY THE ROOTS. But who or what is this 11th horn which sprang up among the ten(10) horns? Its no easy to understand, but hard to interpret.
The headquarter of the FOURTH kingdom was in Rome. The fourth kingdom was the Roman Empire which conquered the third kingdom (leopard) in 146 BC, and later conquered or captured Jerusalem, i.e. in 63 B.C., and constituted Herod, a Roman vassal king, as ruler of the Land of Israel, from 63 to 4B.C., and although Israel be under the Roman dominion, Jerusalem Temple was renovated by the king Herod.
BIRTH OF JESUS around 3.996 after Adam - the promised Messiah-Fulfilment of Daniel 9:v.24
God sent/sends JESUS and establishes the second covenant, for putting an end to the transgression, for making an end of sin, for forgiving iniquity, for bringing in everlasting Justice, for setting the seal on vision and prophet, and for anointing the Especially Holy Place. Simultaneously, GOD sent Elyjah: Matt.11:12-15-CJB:
- 30 to 33 A.D - Ministry of Jesus after 69 weeks.
JESUS is killed. JESUS is crucified. Fulfilment of Dan.9:v.26-CJB:
26 - Then, AFTER the sixty-two weeks, Mashiach (Messiah) will be cut off and have nothing.
The Gospel of the Kingdom of GOD was being preached in the world in the first century after Christ, and the world was being shaken by the Power of God through the preaching of the Gospel, and beginning to trouble even the Roman Empire. The believers in JESUS increased every day forming evangelical communities, and Churches were formed within the Roman Empire, among them the Church of Rome. Paul the Apostle writing to the Church of Rome or to the Romans, said: Rom.1:v.13-
13 - Brothers, I want you to know that although I have been prevented from visiting you until now, I have often planned to do so, in order that I might have some fruit among you, just as I have among the other Gentiles.
The Jews who attended Church services in Rome troubled the brethren with their theories and discussions of the Mosaic cult, and Paul in his epistle said that he was being barred from visiting the brethren of the Church in Rome-Rom.1:v.13. In chapter 2 Paul speaks harshly to the Jews, especially in verses 17 to 29.
In fact, it was the embryo of an apostate movement being born in the Church of Rome, an embryo of Antichrist within the Church of the Lord in Rome. John in his universal epistle said: 1 John 2:v.18-19:
18 Children, this is the Last Hour. You have heard that an Anti-Messiah is coming; and in fact, many anti-Messiahs have arisen now — which is how we know that this is the Last Hour. 19 They went out from us, but they weren’t part of us; for had they been part of us, they would have remained with us.
From this apostate, corrupt and satanic environment that began to form and grew in the Church of Rome, led and developed by Jews and other allies in the Church of Rome, the church that was once the Lord's has since now become the throne of Satan, and the Catholic Church was created, later, ROMAN CATHOLIC Church, linked with the demonic government of the Roman Empire that shook, began to persecute believers, even the Apostle Paul was murdered, and also Peter, among many others.
Israel is linked exclusively to 10 tribes, and they are linked with the Roman Catholic Church since the fundation of the Church of Rome within the TERRIBLE fourth kingdom of Roman Empire, even until the current time, they are allied, but they do not cleave one to another, even as iron is not mixed with clay.
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Greetings in Christ JESUS
I have seen that there is a lot of confusion about the 7 weeks, and after the threescore and two weeks revealing that the Messiah is cut off, but not for himself. So my focus was to interpret Scriptures until this point that has caused many speculation, what is very sad and bad for us the God's people. Starting by Daniel 9:v.26, to facilitate understanding, in my view, I divide it in two parts, as follow:
(1)"26 And after threescore and two weeks shall Messiah be cut off, but not for himself:
(2) and the people of the prince that shall come shall destroy the city and the sanctuary; CONSEQUENCES: and the END thereof shall be with a flood, and unto the END of the WAR desolations are determined.
As you and all can see, my focus in the post you are replying, was until the part (1) of the verse 26. All the description of the message is about only the periods of 7 and 62 weeks, until the Messiah be cut off after the week 69, but not for himself, i.e. the Messiah will be taken away, and will be no more here. So, the second Covenant gets established, stays here and remains enshrined on Earth through JESUS, for ever. The validity of JESUS' sacrifice is for an indefinite time, but it will be broken in the middle of the last week as is revealed in Daniel 9:v.27.
That said, there is still to interpret the second point of the verse 26 described above, and also the seventieth and last week - the 70th, after the Messiah - JESUS - which was taken away after 69 weeks that ended in the year 34 BC, there was a gap of 30 years and JESUS was born (3.996 years after Adam or 4 B.C.).
Again:
(2) and the people of the prince that shall come shall destroy the city and the sanctuary; and the end thereof shall be with a flood, and unto the END of the WAR desolations are determined.
Who is this ruthless and destroyer prince? Ezekiel prophesied about him, saying: "25 And thou, profane wicked prince of Israel (yeah, PROFANE), whose day is come, when iniquity shall have an end, or "at the time of final pusnishment " as is written in Jewish Bible. Ez.21:v.25
Ezekiel 21:v.26-27-CJB-Complete Jewish Bible
As for you, you wicked prince of Isra’el, due to be killed, whose day has come, at the time of final punishment, here is what Adonai Elohim says: Remove the diadem, take off the crown! Everything is being changed. What was low will be raised up, and what was high will be brought down. Ruin! Ruin! I will leave it a ruin (Jerusalem/Israel) such as there has never been, and it will stay that way until the rightful ruler comes, and I give it to him.
The prophecy above begins to be fulfilled in the middle of the last week -the 70th week -, with the establishment of the Abomination of Desolation in the middle of the week. THE MATERIAL THINGS ARE FIGURES OF SPIRITUAL THINGS. The validity of JESUS' sacrifice is for an indefinite time, but it will be broken in the middle of the last week of Daniel 9:v.27 with the establishment of the AD. The day has already come, that is, the seventh day, and the fulfillment of the prophecy is now, even now at the beginning of the seventh and last day or the beginning of this seventh and last millennium. It will be now in the last decade of the Devil's world - 2020 to 2030 -, the seven years of the last week, the week 70th Daniel 9:v.27, and it is within this last decade.
CONSEQUENCES: and the END thereof shall be with a flood, and unto the END of the WAR desolations are determined. Dan. 9:v.26
WAR ?
There will be War, yes, and it is already starting. Scriptures say Abomination of Desolation is about the holy and daily sacrifice of JESUS be taken away, which has been valid daily in these last two millenniums, and will be valid even until the END of this current Dispensation of Grace. Yes, it will be valid until the abomination of desolation settles in the holy place, in the temple of God, by the son of perdition, the man of sin, even him whose coming is after the working of Satan with all power and signs and lying wonders, then the current Dispensation of Grace gets to the END. See what the Complete Jewish Bible says about the son of perdition, the man of sin, as follows:
2 Thes. 2:v.6-8 CJB
6 - And now you know what is restraining, so that he may be revealed in his own time. 7 For already this separating from Torah is at work secretly, but it will be secretly only until he who is restraining is out of the way. 8 Then the one who embodies separation from Torah will be revealed, the one whom the Lord Yeshua will slay with the breath of his mouth(with the Word of His mouth) and destroy by the glory of his coming.
Who is this PROFANE and WICKED and ruthless Prince, skilled in intrigue? Who is the son of perdition? Who is the Man Beast who has two horns like a lamb, and speaks as Dragon, the 666? Revelation 13:v.11 to 18. Who is the little horn, even him " which sprang up and before which three fell, the horn that had eyes and a mouth speaking arrogantly and seemed greater than the others (ten horns). 21 I watched, and that horn made (will make) WAR with the holy ones and was (will) winning"?Daniel 7:v.20-21 CJB-
I elaborated four questions and with details about the same person, trying to facilitate the identification of this prophetic EVIL character. What I can and must state is that this EVIL character was born decades ago, evidently, for he must most likely manifest himself before the middle of this decade because the last week of Daniel 9:v.27 is within this current decade. JESUS said to the Jews: I have come in my Father’s name, and you don’t accept me; if someone else comes in his own name (AN IMPORTOR, say I), him you will accept. John 5:v.43CJB. In fact, the Beast like a lamb who will come of the earth(Israel, the clay, the dry land), he is an esoteric, and kabbalistic, and spiritist messiah, the future ruler and guide of the people of the esoteric, and kabbalistic, and spiritist Israel, followers of the esoteric, and kabbalistic, and spiritist Judaism, actually a Torah is in the hands of the Devil, their wiser Master and father. This satanic Man Beast, son of perdition, comes from the tribe of Dan; Patriarch Jacob prophesied about him-Genesis 49:v.14. He is of the 10 tribes of Israel, but the tribe of Dan does not make part of the 12 tribes in Revelation 7. He is the little horn who sprang up among the 10 horns-10 tribes of Israel.
Revelation 17:v.12 - 13 CJB
12 The ten horns you saw are ten kings who have not yet begun to rule, but they receive power as kings for one hour, along with the Beast (of sea, say I, because here the 10 horns will be linked to the Beast of sea for 1.260 days-the FIRST half of the last week). 13 They have one mind, and they hand over their power and authority to the Beast. 14 They will go to War against the Lamb...(according Revelation 13:v.5 combined with Revelation 11:v.1-2)
Revelation 17:v.11-CJB
11 The Beast which once was (WAS ONE OF THE 12 TRIBES OF ISRAEL) and now is not(belongs to the 12 tribes of Israel no more-Revelation 7) is an eighth king; (it is the eighth after he takes back his throne from the seventh Beast of sea to whom he had given when one of the 7 heads of the Beast of sea was wounded to death-Revelation 13:v.2, and he - the Jewish messiah of the tribe of Dan- will be enthroned as the eighth in his kingdom, the kingdom of Antichrist, so) it comes from the seven and is on its way to destruction.
Be careful and get ready
God bless
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Of course I agree with that as a general concept. But the specific passage in the Olivet Discourse had to do, I believe, with the Jewish disciples of Jesus who Jesus wanted to avoid a judgment that was not meant for the obedient--the Jewish invasion of Jerusalem. Jesus counselled his disciples to "run" when Roman troops started gearing up to come to Israel as an invading, conquering force. They were already in charge, but they were coming to put down a Jewish revolt.
Would you agree that the Olivet discourse is contrary to, fear not them which kill the body, but are not able to kill the soul... Mt.10:28?
This was an old lesson that should've been learned when Babylon approached Jerusalem with the same thing in mind. Jeremiah counselled the Jews in Jerusalem to capitulate to and to surrender to the invading forces, since it had been predetermined by God as a judgment for Israel's idolatry. But the people largely ignored Jeremiah's warnings, and fled to Egypt.
This was the same thing in Jesus' day, with the Jews refusing to submit to Rome. And so, they brought on the worst judgment from God in Israel's history, since it was predetermined to last throughout the present age.
But the followers of God have endured suffering throughout history. Our Savior is the greatest example of this. Fleeing to the mountains, not being concerned with wordly possessions etc, are things we do when we see calamity coming.
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they are the same city but at a a diiferent state. nj does not currently exist. nj is the heavenly made new
It does exist now, because that city is the believers colloctively,
But ye are come unto mount Sion, and unto the city of the living God, the heavenly Jerusalem, and to an innumerable company of angels, Heb.12:22
Therefore thus saith the Lord GOD, Behold, I lay in Zion for a foundation a stone, Isa.28:16
Jerusalem which is above is free Gal.4:26
We're free in Jesus now. We're built on him. We've become a part of his city now.
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Of course I agree with that as a general concept. But the specific passage in the Olivet Discourse had to do, I believe, with the Jewish disciples of Jesus who Jesus wanted to avoid a judgment that was not meant for the obedient--the Jewish invasion of Jerusalem. Jesus counselled his disciples to "run" when Roman troops started gearing up to come to Israel as an invading, conquering force. They were already in charge, but they were coming to put down a Jewish revolt.
Would you agree that the Olivet discourse is contrary to, fear not them which kill the body, but are not able to kill the soul... Mt.10:28?
The general concept I of course agree with, since Jesus taught it. But this wasn't the specific context in which this applied to that particular verse. Keeping our faith in the context of threatening our lives applies when we are persecuted, and not when a nation is being judged. Jesus was counseling his followers to avoid a judgment that was meant for the nation as a whole, but not specifically for them as a righteous following.
This was an old lesson that should've been learned when Babylon approached Jerusalem with the same thing in mind. Jeremiah counselled the Jews in Jerusalem to capitulate to and to surrender to the invading forces, since it had been predetermined by God as a judgment for Israel's idolatry. But the people largely ignored Jeremiah's warnings, and fled to Egypt.
This was the same thing in Jesus' day, with the Jews refusing to submit to Rome. And so, they brought on the worst judgment from God in Israel's history, since it was predetermined to last throughout the present age.
But the followers of God have endured suffering throughout history. Our Savior is the greatest example of this. Fleeing to the mountains, not being concerned with wordly possessions etc, are things we do when we see calamity coming.
Yes, but you're losing the context in part. Yes, part of this Discourse is about Christians being willing to suffer in perilous times. But it has, most of all, to do with the difference between the righteous and the unrighteous in a nation. And it has to do with national judgment, and not just with the Church. I've been endeavoring to explain this--otherwise, I don't think the Olivet Discourse can properly be understood.
But yes, these semi-related concepts are important too. They just don't help us appreciate the greater context of this Discourse.
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they are the same city but at a a diiferent state. nj does not currently exist. nj is the heavenly made new
It does exist now, because that city is the believers colloctively,
But ye are come unto mount Sion, and unto the city of the living God, the heavenly Jerusalem, and to an innumerable company of angels, Heb.12:22
Therefore thus saith the Lord GOD, Behold, I lay in Zion for a foundation a stone, Isa.28:16
Jerusalem which is above is free Gal.4:26
We're free in Jesus now. We're built on him. We've become a part of his city now.
yes heavely jerusalem exists now which is replaced by a new j. just like all the heavens and earth.
21 And I saw a new heaven and a new earth: for the first heaven and the first earth were passed away; and there was no more sea.
2 And I John saw the holy city, new Jerusalem, coming down from God out of heaven, prepared as a bride adorned for her husband.
the new heavens and earth do not exist today
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Yes, but you're losing the context in part. Yes, part of this Discourse is about Christians being willing to suffer in perilous times. But it has, most of all, to do with the difference between the righteous and the unrighteous in a nation. And it has to do with national judgment, and not just with the Church. I've been endeavoring to explain this--otherwise, I don't think the Olivet Discourse can properly be understood.
But yes, these semi-related concepts are important too. They just don't help us appreciate the greater context of this Discourse.
If by national judgement you mean on "the Jews", I disagree. Jesus is specifically pointing to devastation caused by faith in him, not to mention the general wars & rumors of wars.
I do agree about the context of the righteous and unrighteous in a nation and by that I mean those with faith in Jesus and those opposed.
They are told to flee when they see the abomination of desolation standing in the Holy Place. I see this warning differently than most. I see the abomination of desolation as "someone" who places himself in God's stead. And quite frankly, that's exactly what we get when we see why our Savior was nailed to the cross.
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yes heavely jerusalem exists now which is replaced by a new j. just like all the heavens and earth.
We're transformed, not replaced.
21 And I saw a new heaven and a new earth: for the first heaven and the first earth were passed away; and there was no more sea.
The heaven and earth is new now,
Therefore if any man be in Christ, he is a new creature: old things are passed away; behold, all things are become new. 2Cor.5:17
No more sea because we're one in Christ regardless of race and for the rest, we have no right to judge another mans servant.
2 And I John saw the holy city, new Jerusalem, coming down from God out of heaven, prepared as a bride adorned for her husband.
We're that in him now,
I have espoused you to one husband, 2Cor.11:2
the new heavens and earth do not exist today
unforseen by most for sure.
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Therefore if any man be in Christ, he is a new creature: old things are passed away; behold, all things are become new. 2Cor.5:17
No more sea because we're one in Christ regardless of race and for the rest, we have no right to judge another mans servant.
well if things are paased away will need to be replaced and perhaps by a transformed thing.
sea above is a reference t hell. in eterninty there is no more hell
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[well if things are paased away will need to be replaced and perhaps by a transformed thing.
Paul was speaking in the present tense.
sea above is a reference t hell. in eterninty there is no more hell
I believe the sea refers to the "sea of humanity",
And he saith unto me, The waters which thou sawest, where the whore sitteth, are peoples, and multitudes, and nations, and tongues. Rev.17:15
She's sitting on the beast, who rises from the sea (of humanity),
And I stood upon the sand of the sea, and saw a beast rise up out of the sea Rev.13:1
But I do agree with you that there will be no more hell. I believe when compared to all scripture concerning the final fire that causes torment, hell fire is the result of the presence of Christ upon the unrepentant,
And the beast was taken, and with him the false prophet that wrought miracles before him, with which he deceived them that had received the mark of the beast, and them that worshipped his image. These both were cast alive into a lake of fire burning with brimstone. Rev.19:20
and then shall be revealed the Lawless One, whom the Lord shall consume with the spirit of his mouth, and shall destroy with the manifestation of his presence, 2Thes.2:8
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I believe the sea refers to the "sea of humanity",
And he saith unto me, The waters which thou sawest, where the whore sitteth, are peoples, and multitudes, and nations, and tongues. Rev.17:15
She's sitting on the beast, who rises from the sea (of humanity),
And I stood upon the sand of the sea, and saw a beast rise up out of the sea Rev.13:1
And every creature which is in heaven, and on the earth, and under the earth, and such as are in the sea,
so humanity is more than the sea
so what humanity is in the sea, the dead.
And the sea gave up the dead which were in it;
now as for your reference to rev 13, where is john standing, on the seashore so what he sees comes forth from a body of water which hell is below, the beast comes from hell.
And I stood upon the sand of the sea, and saw a beast rise up out of the sea,
The beast that thou sawest was, and is not; and shall ascend out of the bottomless pit,
so sea equals the bottomless pit not humanity and the waters which you saw with the whore are rivers une being the great euphrates which gives us a clue to the location of babylon
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And every creature which is in heaven, and on the earth, and under the earth, and such as are in the sea,
so humanity is more than the sea
so what humanity is in the sea, the dead.
And the sea gave up the dead which were in it;
I was referring to humanity as, "man" kind, not other "kinds" if life. And We were part of the sea, but were saved out of it, because we heed Our Lord's words, just as Noah heard God and built the ark.
now as for your reference to rev 13, where is john standing, on the seashore so what he sees comes forth from a body of water which hell is below, the beast comes from hell.
And I stood upon the sand of the sea, and saw a beast rise up out of the sea,
The beast that thou sawest was, and is not; and shall ascend out of the bottomless pit,
so sea equals the bottomless pit not humanity and the waters which you saw with the whore are rivers une being the great euphrates which gives us a clue to the location of babylon
The bottomless pit is ahole that can't be filled, such as the greed, etc. of humanity (mankind). Of course fallen angels inhabit that dead place, but as King David said,
He brought me up also out of an horrible pit Psa.40:2
This prophetic psalm isn't speaking of a never ending hole somewhere, but an experience. In this case, it's Christ saying the Father saved him out of the pit some religious leaders tried to put him in. As far as the rest of us, Asaph says,
But as for me, my feet were almost gone; my steps had well nigh slipped. Psa.73:2
And which one of us hasn't felt jealousy for whatever earthly reason.
I don't know what your view of the bottomless pit is, but jealousy is a bottomless pit. So is lust, envy and so on.
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The bottomless pit is a hole that can't be filled, such as the greed, etc. of humanity (mankind).
This prophetic psalm isn't speaking of a never ending hole somewhere, but an experience.
I don't know what your view of the bottomless pit is, but jealousy is a bottomless pit. So is lust, envy and so on.
i see the bp as a literal hole in the ground, bottomless being a metaphor for a very long pit. i would assume it reaches to the center of the earth being its hootest point.
But thou art cast out of thy grave like an abominable branch, and as the raiment of those that are slain, thrust through with a sword, that go down to the stones of the pit; as a carcase trodden under feet.
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i see the bp as a literal hole in the ground, bottomless being a metaphor for a very long pit. i would assume it reaches to the center of the earth being its hootest point.
But thou art cast out of thy grave like an abominable branch, and as the raiment of those that are slain, thrust through with a sword, that go down to the stones of the pit; as a carcase trodden under feet.
I'm convinced it's a state people enter,
That passage refers to a dead body. Our Lord spoke of the dead in a way this world doesn't see,
But he knoweth not that the dead are there; and that her guests are in the depths of hell. Pro.9:18
It's a "place" in the sense of a "state" sinners are in.
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I'm convinced it's a state people enter,
That passage refers to a dead body. Our Lord spoke of the dead in a way this world doesn't see,
But he knoweth not that the dead are there; and that her guests are in the depths of hell. Pro.9:18
It's a "place" in the sense of a "state" sinners are in.
so you do not see hell as a literal place, is heaven then not a place but a state?
how does a nonliteral place have walls sides and stones?
Yet thou shalt be brought down to hell, to the sides of the pit.
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so you do not see hell as a literal place, is heaven then not a place but a state?
It's a place we're in, in Christ. I believe the creation everyone can see is like a mirror of the heavenly. The world we now inhabit is like the rebellion long ago of fallen spirits against God. His Kingdom is all around us, but we can only enter it by faith in Jesus.
how does a nonliteral place have walls sides and stones?
The same way you can be "in a box", without being in a box.
Yet thou shalt be brought down to hell, to the sides of the pit.
And Satan wants people to believe they're free in him, but the opposite is true. They're in bondage, in prison, enslaved, without metal bars.
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A different view of Dan 9.
I'm seeing the 70 Weeks of Dan 9 a little differently than I have been. And I think it may make reading it a little more cohesive and readable, which should be what an account is all about.
Dan 9.24 “Seventy ‘sevens’ are decreed for your people and your holy city to finish transgression, to put an end to sin, to atone for wickedness, to bring in everlasting righteousness, to seal up vision and prophecy and to anoint the Most Holy Place.
25 “Know and understand this: From the time the word goes out to restore and rebuild Jerusalem until the Anointed One, the ruler, comes, there will be seven ‘sevens,’ and sixty-two ‘sevens.’ It will be rebuilt with streets and a trench, but in times of trouble. 26 After the sixty-two ‘sevens,’ the Anointed One will be put to death and will have nothing. The people of the ruler who will come will destroy the city and the sanctuary. The end will come like a flood: War will continue until the end, and desolations have been decreed. 27 He will confirm a covenant with many for one ‘seven.’ In the middle of the ‘seven’ he will put an end to sacrifice and offering. And at the temple he will set up an abomination that causes desolation, until the end that is decreed is poured out on him."
In vss. 26-27 there is a central character, the "ruler who will come," which I believe refers to the Roman leader--not a specific leader, but basically a position. He will do several things, it appears.
1) He will have his people destroy Jerusalem and the temple.
2) He will confirm a covenant with many for a Week, presumably of years.
3) He will put an end to sacrifice and offering in the middle of the Week.
4) He will set up an abomination that causes desolation.
What's different in my position now is that I used to think Christ was the one who confirms a covenant with many for a Week, and put an end to sacrifice and offering in the middle of the Week. But that seems to confuse the cohesiveness of the discourse, and muddy who is doing what. If we see all of the elements being orchestrated by a single entity, the Roman leadership, then it makes cohesive sense, and the prophecy seems to flow more evenly.
So how did the Roman leader(s) make this happen? He brought about the destruction of Jerusalem and the temple from 70-135 AD. Leading up to this, Rome initially allowed the Jews to continue under their temple covenant during the ministry of Christ, which lasted 3.5 years. This was the 70th Week of the 70 Weeks Prophecy.
Then a Roman leader, Pontius Pilate, put Christ to death in the middle of this 70th Week, since Jesus died apparently after only 3.5 years of ministry--half of a Week. This put an end to divine acceptance of sacrifices and offerings made at the temple. The veil was rent at Jesus' death.
Finally, a Roman general set up an Army around Jerusalem and the temple, presenting an "abomination of desolation." It was a display of raw pagan power, set to destroy God's temple. There were actually 2 Roman generals involved in this, Cestius Gallus in 66 AD and Titus in 70 AD.
This seems to allow the passage to flow more smoothly in the vein of its context. The context, largely, has to do with the future of the temple and with the coming of Messiah.
Daniel is praying about the restoration of the temple, and God sends an angel to explain that over a 70 Weeks period the temple will be restored and remain as such until the coming of Messiah.
The rise of Rome, the 4th Kingdom Daniel mentioned earlier in chs. 2 and 7, will cooperate with this covenant in the time of Messiah, who comes in the 70th Week. During the time of Jesus, the Romans will all the Gospel of Messiah to be disseminated until he is judged and crucified.
The "end that is decreed" is either one of two options. Either this "end" is something decreed to end the temple by the "ruler who will come." Or, this end is something that will come to Rome itself, taking place in 476 AD. It depends on how the words apply.
Roman leadership did not immediately come to an end, but in 476 AD it did come to an end. The Roman imperial tradition continued in the East, and was later restored in the West. But the Western branch of the ancient Roman Empire did come to an end.
But the context seems rather to have to do with the cessation of Jewish worship, and perhaps the reference was to this, which happened at the destruction of the temple in 70 AD? After all, no immediate vengeance was poured out upon the Roman perpetrator of this judgment.
"And at the temple he will set up an abomination that causes desolation, until the end that is decreed is poured out on him."
The word "him" here may also be translated at "it," apparently. As such, it may be rendered, more properly, as...
"And at the temple he will set up an abomination that causes desolation, until the end that is decreed is poured out on IT."
Randy you suggest that Daniel 9:27 has been fulfilled in history?
Scripture clearly teaches that the bad guy seen will be on earth causing abomination and desolation to the "Consummation" or ultimate end, "Future" unfulfilled
Daniel 9:24-27, Seventy Literal Weeks Explained?
Daniel's 70 weeks are literal 7 day periods, or 490 literal days.
If Daniel meant 490 years he would have written
(Four hundred and ninety years), simple
mail
Daniel had no restrictions in "Writing" exact numerology as seen below.
Daniel 6:1KJV
It pleased Darius to set over the kingdom an hundred and twenty princes, which should be over the whole kingdom;
Daniel 8:14KJV
And he said unto me, Unto two thousand and three hundred days; then shall the sanctuary be cleansed.
Daniel 12:11KJV
And from the time that the daily sacrifice shall be taken away, and the abomination that maketh desolate set up, there shall be a thousand two hundred and ninety days.
Below in Daniel 10:2-3 we see just another example of Daniel's literal weeks, as Daniel mourned and fasted for 3 literal weeks or 21 days.
Daniel 10:2-3KJV
2 In those days I Daniel was mourning three full weeks.
3 I ate no pleasant bread, neither came flesh nor wine in my mouth, neither did I anoint myself at all, till three whole weeks were fulfilled.
Below in Daniel 9:24-27 we see (70 Literal Future Weeks) or 490 days.
When the (Future) call/commandment goes out in Jerusalem to build unto the Jewish Meshiach/Messiah that they wait for (They Denied Jesus Christ) this will start the 7 week period.
62 literal weeks will be in building, and Meshiach/Messiah will be cut off as Armies surrounding Jerusalem, who stop the building.
The 70th literal week will see the antichrist revealed in making a covenant, and in the middle of this literal week he proclaims to be Meshiach/Messiah God to the Jews, and Jesus returned to the apostate church, to start a Millennium on earth.
The 3.5 year tribulation now starts.
Daniel 9:24-27KJV
24 Seventy weeks are determined upon thy people and upon thy holy city, to finish the transgression, and to make an end of sins, and to make reconciliation for iniquity, and to bring in everlasting righteousness, and to seal up the vision and prophecy, and to anoint the most Holy.
25 Know therefore and understand, that from the going forth of the commandment to restore and to build Jerusalem unto the Messiah the Prince shall be seven weeks, and threescore and two weeks: the street shall be built again, and the wall, even in troublous times.
26 And after threescore and two weeks shall Messiah be cut off, but not for himself: and the people of the prince that shall come shall destroy the city and the sanctuary; and the end thereof shall be with a flood, and unto the end of the war desolations are determined.
27 And he shall confirm the covenant with many for one week: and in the midst of the week he shall cause the sacrifice and the oblation to cease, and for the overspreading of abominations he shall make it desolate, even until the consummation, and that determined shall be poured upon the desolate.
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Randy you suggest that Daniel 9:27 has been fulfilled in history?
Scripture clearly teaches that the bad guy seen will be on earth causing abomination and desolation to the "Consummation" or ultimate end, "Future" unfulfilled
Daniel 9:24-27, Seventy Literal Weeks Explained?
Daniel's 70 weeks are literal 7 day periods, or 490 literal days.
If Daniel meant 490 years he would have written
(Four hundred and ninety years), [/quote] FAKE
Daniel would right what you are suggesting if he was inspired by the same spirit of yours.
Daniel 9:v.24 to 27 - CJB - COMPLETE JEWISH BIBLE
24 “Seventy weeks have been decreed for your people and for your holy city for putting an end to the transgression, for making an end of sin, for forgiving iniquity, for bringing in everlasting justice, for setting the seal on vision and prophet, and for anointing the Especially Holy Place. 25 Know, therefore, and discern that seven weeks [of years] will elapse between the issuing of the decree to restore and rebuild Yerushalayim until an anointed prince comes. It will remain built for sixty-two weeks [of years], with open spaces and moats; but these will be troubled times. 26 Then, after the sixty-two weeks, Mashiach will be cut off and have nothing. The people of a prince yet to come will destroy the city and the sanctuary, but his end will come with a flood, and desolations are decreed until the war is over. 27 He will make a strong covenant with leaders for one week [of years]. For half of the week he will put a stop to the sacrifice and the grain offering. On the wing of detestable things the desolator will come and continue until the already decreed destruction is poured out on the desolator.”
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The Complete Jewish Bible Is Fake
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The Complete Jewish Bible Is Fake
[/quote]
Not as much as the accuser.
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The Complete Jewish Bible Is Fake
Wait? What?
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Wait? What?
Surely this is different from the studio release of the Jewish Bible, or even the Director's cut. It's too bad I overlooked this comment earlier.
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Wait? What?
Surely this is different from the studio release of the Jewish Bible, or even the Director's cut. It's too bad I overlooked this comment earlier.
Daniel 9:v.27CJB - 27 He will make a strong COVENANT with leaders for one week [of years]. For half of the week he will put a stop to the sacrifice and the grain offering. On the wing of detestable things the desolator will come and continue until the already decreed destruction is poured out on the desolator.”
The Word of GOD - the Word is GOD - is not referring to A COVENANT of a week of 24-hour day, it is meaningless, but a week of years, of course. The same happens with 7 weeks, and 62 weeks, as it is written, GOD refers actually to two periods of 1,260 days, the second period with a gap of 30 days, then another gap of 45 days.
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Wait? What?
Surely this is different from the studio release of the Jewish Bible, or even the Director's cut. It's too bad I overlooked this comment earlier.
Daniel 9:v.27CJB - 27 He will make a strong COVENANT with leaders for one week [of years]. For half of the week he will put a stop to the sacrifice and the grain offering. On the wing of detestable things the desolator will come and continue until the already decreed destruction is poured out on the desolator.”
Daniel 9:27 KJV And he shall confirm the covenant with many for one week: and in the midst of the week he shall cause the sacrifice and the oblation to cease, and for the overspreading of abominations he shall make it desolate, even until the consummation, and that determined shall be poured upon the desolate.
And so exactly how does the text in the CJB differ in any substantive way from the revered KJV -- which, of course, relied on the Septuagint for its translation of the Hebrew Text? Is there anything substantively better about a text going from original Hebrew to Greek to English, as opposed from original Hebrew to English?
What is substantively different between the two texts that renders one acceptable and one non-acceptable?
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Wait? What?
Surely this is different from the studio release of the Jewish Bible, or even the Director's cut. It's too bad I overlooked this comment earlier.
Daniel 9:v.27CJB - 27 He will make a strong COVENANT with leaders for one week [of years]. For half of the week he will put a stop to the sacrifice and the grain offering. On the wing of detestable things the desolator will come and continue until the already decreed destruction is poured out on the desolator.”
Daniel 9:27 KJV And he shall confirm the covenant with many for one week: and in the midst of the week he shall cause the sacrifice and the oblation to cease, and for the overspreading of abominations he shall make it desolate, even until the consummation, and that determined shall be poured upon the desolate.
And so exactly how does the text in the CJB differ in any substantive way from the revered KJV -- which, of course, relied on the Septuagint for its translation of the Hebrew Text? Is there anything substantively better about a text going from original Hebrew to Greek to English, as opposed from original Hebrew to English?
What is substantively different between the two texts that renders one acceptable and one non-acceptable?
The Word of GOD - the Word is GOD - is not referring to A COVENANT of a week of 24-hour day, it is meaningless, but a week of years, of course. The same happens with 7 weeks, and 62 weeks, as it is written, GOD refers actually to two periods of 1,260 days, the second period with a gap of 30 days, then another gap of 45 days.
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I understand that is your interpretation, but let's start with the text itself.
Is there any meaningful difference between the text as set forth in the Complete Jewish Bible and the King James Version?
We can get to interpretation once we get to an agreement on whether the words we read in English are acceptable to everyone, as opposed to, say, if there was a meaningful difference arising from an issue with the translation from the Hebrew to English.
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I understand that is your interpretation, but let's start with the text itself.
Is there any meaningful difference between the text as set forth in the Complete Jewish Bible and the King James Version?
We can get to interpretation once we get to an agreement on whether the words we read in English are acceptable to everyone, as opposed to, say, if there was a meaningful difference arising from an issue with the translation from the Hebrew to English.
Differences between biblical versions do not prevent the Holy Spirit from distinguishing which version is announcing with more precision, or not, what he himself inspired. Believe you, there are three that bear record in heaven(heaven is not sky, obvious), the Father-GOD the Father; the Word-the Word made flesh-JESUS; and the Holy Spirit(who is not a Ghost as is written in English language, but as Person, the Paraclete, the Comfort-John 16:v.7to15-Check it) and these three are One.
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I don’t even know what to say.
There are no inspired translations
Especially none that contain that appeal to the Trinity that is t in the best manuscripts
You haven’t answered the question posed
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I don’t even know what to say.
There are no inspired translations
Especially none that contain that appeal to the Trinity that is t in the best manuscripts
You haven’t answered the question posed
What does the Word of GOD say? The Word is GOD.
He that is of the earth is earthly, and speaketh of the earth: he that cometh from heaven is above all. And what he hath seen and heard, that he testifieth; and no man receiveth his testimony. He that hath received his testimony hath set to his seal that GOD is true. -The Word is GOD - He whom GOD hath sent speaketh the words of God(like JESUS): for GOD giveth not the Spirit by measure unto him. The Father loveth the Son, and hath given all things into his hand. He that believeth on the Son hath everlasting life: and he that believeth not the Son shall not see life; but the WRATH of GOD abideth on him. John 3:v.31-36
I have not any problem with any biblical versions because I can discern what was really said by the Holy Spirit, and what was not. See, God asked to Jeremiah:
Jeremiah, what seest thou? And Jeremiah said, I see a rod of an almond tree. Then said the Lord unto him, Thou hast well seen (this is what matters): for I will hasten my Word to perform it.
The question is: Why did GOD say to Jeremiah he had well seen? What is the detail that links the rod of almond tree to the Word of GOD? Whoever did not see the rod of almond tree it was because he had no a true vision of Scriptures, but a false vision, much less had a true message of Scripture like the false prophets.
Jeremiah had seen a rod of almond tree, but what was there in the rod of almond tree so that Jeremiah's vision corresponded equally with God's? So much so that God said: Thou hast well seen: I will hasten my word to perform it. What is the detail that links the rod of almond tree to the Word of GOD, and to a true interpretation of it according with GOD?
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... I can discern what was really said by the Holy Spirit, and what was not.
Oh yeah. I'm thinking you're here to correct, not to discuss. Maybe it's time to move along.
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... I can discern what was really said by the Holy Spirit, and what was not.
Oh yeah. I'm thinking you're here to correct, not to discuss. Maybe it's time to move along.
If you think I am here to correct , think it again, please, I work with the Word of GOD-the Word is GOD.
All Scripture is given by inspiration of GOD, and is profitable for doctrine, for reproof, for correction, for instruction in righteousness: That the man of God may be perfect, thoroughly furnished unto all good works - 2Tim.3:v.16-17KJV. (My source is Biblegateway; English is not my native language. I am from Brazil. I live in the South of Brazil, near Argentina. As I said, I work with the Word of GOD-the Word is GOD. For me particularly this is wonderful, by the way, I like to decipher biblical enigmas).
Honestly, I do not know word more powerful than the Word of GOD.
But let me say or to explain the enigma about Jeremiah's vision in consensus with GOD. Let's see how wonderful is the revelations of the Word of GOD.
Numbers 17
1 And the Lord spake unto Moses, saying,
2 Speak unto the children of Israel, and take of every one of them a rod according to the house of their fathers, of all their princes according to the house of their fathers twelve rods: write thou every man's name upon his rod.
3 And thou shalt write Aaron's name upon the rod of Levi: for one rod shall be for the head of the house of their fathers.
4 And thou shalt lay them up in the tabernacle of the congregation before the testimony, where I will meet with you.
5 And it shall come to pass, that the man's rod, whom I shall choose, shall blossom: and I will make to cease from me the murmurings of the children of Israel, whereby they murmur against you. (This also happens with me)
6 And Moses spake unto the children of Israel, and every one of their princes gave him a rod apiece, for each prince one, according to their fathers' houses, even twelve rods: and the rod of Aaron was among their rods.
7 And Moses laid up the rods before the Lord in the tabernacle of witness.
8 And it came to pass, that on the morrow Moses went into the tabernacle of witness; and, behold, the rod of Aaron for the house of Levi was budded, and brought forth buds, and bloomed blossoms, and yielded almonds.
9 And Moses brought out all the rods from before the Lord unto all the children of Israel: and they looked, and took every man his rod.
10 And the Lord said unto Moses, Bring Aaron's rod again before the testimony, to be kept for a token against the rebels; and thou shalt quite take away their murmurings from me, that they die not.
11 And Moses did so: as the Lord commanded him, so did he.
12 And the children of Israel spake unto Moses, saying, Behold, we die, we perish, we all perish.
13 Whosoever cometh any thing near unto the tabernacle of the Lord shall die: shall we be consumed with dying?
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Reading the biblical content above no need any explanation, nor discussion. Scriptures explain Scriptures or the Word of GOD explains the Word of GOD, and by/through the above biblical text showing that the Aaron's rod for Levy's house among other 11 rods, was the only rod (symbol of the true Word of GOD) that was budded, and brought forth buds, and bloomed blossoms, and yielded almonds.
Can we see? The only rod that bloomed blossoms, and yielded almonds was Aaron's. Also the true Word of GOD is the only that can bloom and bear fruit as Aaron's rod bloomed blossoms, and yielded almonds.
May our Lord GOD bless and keep us, and give us His protection
Amen
P.S.
JESUS said: Matth.10:v.24-25
24 The disciple is not above his master, nor the servant above his lord.
25 It is enough for the disciple that he be as his master, and the servant as his lord. If ...
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Randy you suggest that Daniel 9:27 has been fulfilled in history?
Yes. If we are to take the "70 Weeks" as representative of a symbolic period of time, a day equal to a year, then the 70th Week would bring us to the 1st Coming of Jesus and to his death on the cross, followed by the fall of Jerusalem and the temple. I see the 70th Week as completed in the middle of the Week, or after only 3.5 years.
It's said that Jesus' earthly ministry only lasted 3.5 years. And he said that after his death, within his own generation, the temple in Jerusalem would be destroyed. Romans would surround the city, and ultimately bring desolation to the Jewish people. It would result in a great tribulation until the time he returns in glory. And Jesus made direct reference to a passage in Daniel in saying this, which is the passage we are now discussing.