Do you know then God of Jesus?

[meshak]

And this is what Moses says about Jesus which you dont take heed:

Deuteronomy 18:15
New International Version
The Prophet
[/b]Deuteronomy 18:15
New International Version
15 The Lord your God will raise up for you a prophet like me from among you, from your fellow Israelites. You must listen to him.

[Sojourner]

You still cannot refute Jesus' word of "His Father is His God".

You guys dancing around too much, friend.

God is Jesus' God. But He is also God because He is the Word of God in human form. He is the Son of God because God's Spirit caused His conception in Mary's womb, but He is God in the sense of being the Word incarnate. The Apostle John opens his Gospel presenting Jesus as He was before He was Jesus. We're told that the Word was both with God and was God from eternity (John 1:1-3), and that the Word was robed in humanity, and dwelled among men (John 1:14).

As you read these words, consider that they are my thoughts--invisible, unknown and unknowable to you. Yet, they are given substance and made manifest by my words. They are still my thoughts, but represented in a way you can know them. In a similar way, God is an invisible Spirit, unknown and unknowable to us until He manifests and reveals Himself by means of His Word. In the opening verses of Genesis, He was displeased with the watery darkness in which the earth was submerged. It was His will that there be light. He sent forth His word, and there was light.

In a similar way, Abraham was steeped in a culture of dark paganism and idolatry and the true Almighty was unknown until God revealed Himself to Abraham by speaking to Him. In the midst of the spiritual darkness, God enlightened the mind of a man by sending forth His word to reveal Himself, initiating the beginning of His work of man's redemption. This principle is beautifully depicted by the prophet Isaiah:

For My thoughts are not your thoughts, neither are your ways My ways, declares the LORD. For as the heavens are higher than the earth, so My ways are higher than your ways and My thoughts than your thoughts. For just as rain and snow fall from heaven and do not return without watering the earth, making it bud and sprout, and providing seed to sow and food to eat, so My word that proceeds from My mouth will not return to Me empty, but it will accomplish what I please, and it will prosper where I send it. (Isaiah 55:8-11)

God's manifests Himself and reveals His mind, will and purpose by means of His divine word, and Jesus is the human incarnation of that word. That's why Paul calls Him "the image of the invisible God." And that's why Jesus said that to see Him was to see the Father (John 14:9). Jesus spoke of being one with God even before the world existed (John 14:5), and of being sent forth from God to accomplish His will (John 4:34; 8:42; 16;27-28; 17:8-9). Thus, Jesus, as the Word of God incarnate, is declared to have proceeded forth from God to fulfill His purpose in the same manner described by Isaiah. Moreover, He returned to Him not void, but having fully accomplished the purpose for which He was sent by means of His sacrificial death and resurrection.

So yes, God is the God and Father of Jesus. But Jesus is God as the divine Word incarnate; now and forever a temple of glorified humanity in whom dwells the Spirit of God. He has returned to the Father as depicted in Daniel 7:13, and will one day return to establish His earthly kingdom. Those who dwell in that kingdom will not see the invisible God, but will behold upon the throne the Word that reveals and manifests Him, as the king of glory.



 

[RabbiKnife]

If one claims that Jesus is not God, then the sacrifice of Jesus is not sufficient to forgive sin.

[meshak]

If one claims that Jesus is not God, then the sacrifice of Jesus is not sufficient to forgive sin.

This is a strange claim.

The Bible does not claim Jesus has to be God to be Christ.

[meshak]

You still cannot refute Jesus' word of "His Father is His God".

You guys dancing around too much, friend.

God is Jesus' God. But He is also God because He is the Word of God in human form. He is the Son of God because God's Spirit caused His conception in Mary's womb, but He is God in the sense of being the Word incarnate. The Apostle John opens his Gospel presenting Jesus as He was before He was Jesus. We're told that the Word was both with God and was God from eternity (John 1:1-3), and that the Word was robed in humanity, and dwelled among men (John 1:14).

As you read these words, consider that they are my thoughts--invisible, unknown and unknowable to you. Yet, they are given substance and made manifest by my words. They are still my thoughts, but represented in a way you can know them. In a similar way, God is an invisible Spirit, unknown and unknowable to us until He manifests and reveals Himself by means of His Word. In the opening verses of Genesis, He was displeased with the watery darkness in which the earth was submerged. It was His will that there be light. He sent forth His word, and there was light.

In a similar way, Abraham was steeped in a culture of dark paganism and idolatry and the true Almighty was unknown until God revealed Himself to Abraham by speaking to Him. In the midst of the spiritual darkness, God enlightened the mind of a man by sending forth His word to reveal Himself, initiating the beginning of His work of man's redemption. This principle is beautifully depicted by the prophet Isaiah:

For My thoughts are not your thoughts, neither are your ways My ways, declares the LORD. For as the heavens are higher than the earth, so My ways are higher than your ways and My thoughts than your thoughts. For just as rain and snow fall from heaven and do not return without watering the earth, making it bud and sprout, and providing seed to sow and food to eat, so My word that proceeds from My mouth will not return to Me empty, but it will accomplish what I please, and it will prosper where I send it. (Isaiah 55:8-11)

God's manifests Himself and reveals His mind, will and purpose by means of His divine word, and Jesus is the human incarnation of that word. That's why Paul calls Him "the image of the invisible God." And that's why Jesus said that to see Him was to see the Father (John 14:9). Jesus spoke of being one with God even before the world existed (John 14:5), and of being sent forth from God to accomplish His will (John 4:34; 8:42; 16;27-28; 17:8-9). Thus, Jesus, as the Word of God incarnate, is declared to have proceeded forth from God to fulfill His purpose in the same manner described by Isaiah. Moreover, He returned to Him not void, but having fully accomplished the purpose for which He was sent by means of His sacrificial death and resurrection.

So yes, God is the God and Father of Jesus. But Jesus is God as the divine Word incarnate; now and forever a temple of glorified humanity in whom dwells the Spirit of God. He has returned to the Father as depicted in Daniel 7:13, and will one day return to establish His earthly kingdom. Those who dwell in that kingdom will not see the invisible God, but will behold upon the throne the Word that reveals and manifests Him, as the king of glory.

Another lengthy claim without Jesus' word.

And still dancing around simple Truth.

[RabbiKnife]

If one claims that Jesus is not God, then the sacrifice of Jesus is not sufficient to forgive sin.

This is a strange claim.

The Bible does not claim Jesus has to be God to be Christ.

Hebrews does

[Sojourner]

Another lengthy claim without Jesus' word.

And still dancing around simple Truth.

I explained how God is Jesus' God, using the truth of scripture, and you still call that dancing around the truth? I don't think you recognize truth outside of your own version of it. You're probably a Jehovah's Witness, which would explain your narrow-minded perspective.

[ProDeo]

If one claims that Jesus is not God, then the sacrifice of Jesus is not sufficient to forgive sin.

Exactly.

We know what the end of the devil will be. I sometimes wonder why God did not send him to that place immediately when he rebelled. Instead God gave him space to terrorize us. And I wonder why. Could it be that the devil accused God of being loveless, unmerciful, not able to forgive? Per Rev 12:10 we know he is good in that.

There is no good reason why God should have justified / defended Himself against the accusations and throw the devil into hell immediately. But maybe God decided otherwise and said to the heavenly audience something like - I will show you that I am not loveless, that I am merciful, that I forgive sins, I will give the most precious I have (a part of Myself) as a sacrifice that will destroy all your accusations and then you go to hell.

Not Scripture, I know.

[Athanasius]

Isnt Jesus your Lord?

Yes, Jesus is my Lord and my Savoir.

Ephesians 4:4-5 says there is one Lord...
Is Jesus your Lord or is the Father your Lord?

First, why dont you refute my quote of Jesus?

You guys have been skipping over and over.
You still have not answered this question plainly. Can you do so and provide scripture for your answer?

First, why dont you refute my quote of Jesus?

You guys have been skipping over and over.

This is what have been skipping:

This is what Jesus says:

John 20:17
Jesus said, “Do not hold on to me, for I have not yet ascended to the Father. Go instead to my brothers and tell them, ‘I am ascending to my Father and your Father, to my God and your God.’”

No one has been skipping over John 20:17. Put the verse in its fuller context, keep in mind the incarnational claims of the doctrine of the Trinity, pay attention to about ~1,800 years of discussion over the verse, and you'll discover quite curiously that it's not a problem for Trinitarian doctrine. Crazy I know.

Humans have a God? Jesus here is speaking as a human? Interesting.
Is this suggested reading of the verse consonant with the rest of New Testament witness regarding the claims of Jesus? No? Interesting.

You see, you need to explain why you think John 20:17 is a problem for Trinitarian doctrine. You do understand the doctrine you disagree with, don't you?

[meshak]

You see, you need to explain why you think John 20:17 is a problem for Trinitarian doctrine. You do understand the doctrine you disagree with, don't you?

It is a problem because you dismiss Jesus' simple Truth.

You are dismissing the fact that Jesus is the Lord of all His followers.

[meshak]

I explained how God is Jesus' God, using the truth of scripture,

Your explanation is so out of context with Jesus' own word.

that's why I say you guys have been dancing around Jesus' simple Truth.

You guys are stuck with His simple word.

You can run but you cannot hide, friend.

[Fenris]

And this is what Moses says about Jesus which you dont take heed:
15 The Lord your God will raise up for you a prophet like me from among you, from your fellow Israelites. You must listen to him.

Why are you quoting one verse? What's the context here?

Let's look at the previous chapter. (Radical concept, I know.) God is laying the groundwork for a just and holy society. What are the segments of this society? Well, let's see:

Deuteronomy 17 talks about courts of law in verses 8 to 13.

Next it discusses the king in verses 14 to 20.

Then chapter 18 talks about the priests in verses 1 to 8.

And finally we have the prophet in verses 14 to 22.

All these are parts of the functioning biblical society in ancient Israel.

So to revisit the point, verse 15 isn't talking about "a" prophet. It's talking about the role of the prophet in biblical society. And there were many such prophets, just as there were many kings, priests, and courts. 

[RabbiKnife]

Saying a falsehood 12 times in a row does not make your falsehood twelve times less false

[Sojourner]

Your explanation is so out of context with Jesus' own word.[/b]

that's why I say you guys have been dancing around Jesus' simple Truth.

You guys are stuck with His simple word.

You can run but you cannot hide, friend.

Nobody is dancing around the truth but you, fella. I won't be wasting any more time on you and your JW mindset.

[Kingfisher]

All this lengthy post yet still dancing around and cannot refute what I quoted about Jesus' word.

No one is dancing.

You've been given plenty of scriptural evidence and explanation that you just quickly dismissed.
This is a Bible discussion forum, not meshak's authorized version discussion forum. I won't limit my understanding of God's Holy Word to your narrowed viewpoint.