Antisemitism

[Oscar_Kipling]

Black people, Neurodivergent people, LGBT..etc people, Irreligious people.

Which one of these were your forebears?

I suppose that depends on how exclusive your definition of forebears is. I was using it in the sense of people who came before me with whom I share biological, sociological, ideological and/or behavioral  traits and therefore personally identify with or am identified as by external entities. Savvy?

[Fenris]

How strange, Do you think that everyone has a daughter whose friend had this expirience? Why would it be surprising that I didn't find this personal story that your daughter's friend conveyed to you presumably via your daughter in my admittedly cursory google search? You aren't referencing a news article or even a reddit post that I might actually have access to, but a story from people you have personal relationships with, I'm boggled.

You're a very difficult person to have a conversation with. And the reason for that is that you are very insulting to people. You're accusing me of being a liar. I see why other people here say that they won't continue a conversation with you. Get yourself some manners. Seriously.

It took me about 5 seconds to find the news story in question.

So even this updated story that you are conveying is different than that one, admittedly perhaps you conveyed that story about your daughter's friend earlier or somewhere else and it was unclear what I was referring to. Now that we are on the same page, I read that story and thought that it was an ineffective way to protest, you go on to claim that it isn't a protest at all, so I asked how you knew that and then you shared a seemingly entirely different story that It would make no sense for me to know about. So I guess thanks, you've set me straight.

You sit there behind your keyboard and make fun of a religious minority. A minority that is reporting that they feel like their safety is being ignored by multiple college administrations who are all facing Title VI suits on this very matter.

Ouch, my knee got a little scraped up from this dragging you've given me. What could you mean that I don't find it interesting, I'm literally wasting my time on a forum to talk about this with someone who obviously thinks I'm an idiodic dirtbag,

Yeah, I see why people won't talk to you.

Of course I'm very interested. I also clearly stated in a part of my post that you didn't quote that Nazis and Hamas both use antisemitism as a convenient recruitment and justification mechanism. Honestly I don't even believe that it is always about hatred, I think alot of times antisemitism and other forms of racism are just things people use to justify stealing, subjugating and otherwise mistreating other human beings for personal gain and profit.

We're not talking about "other forms of racism". The title of the discussion is "antisemitism".




 

Does a just war mean that there is no room for criticism?

Israel's haters are not complaining about the way the war is carried out. They're calling for Israel to surrender. This after the largest slaughter of Jews since the Holocaust and while Hamas is still holding 130 hostages.

It's sick.

I mean I think that is where we disagree, I think in some sense it is a war on Islamic nationalism/imperialism

It's a war on Hamas controlled Gaza. WW2 was a war on Nazi controlled Germany.

I mean I genuinely thought it was, You seemed to really want to instill in me that it is something I should consider when interacting with you...now that I tell you that I'm going to make an effort I feel like you unhappy with it.

I don't think that you know how to interact politely. You take everything as a slight or a personal attack and throw personal attacks back.

[Fenris]

I suppose that depends on how exclusive your definition of forebears is. I was using it in the sense of people who came before me with whom I share biological, sociological, ideological and/or behavioral  traits and therefore personally identify with or am identified as by external entities. Savvy?

So you don't actually have forebears who were the victims of genocide. I get it.


I'm talking about a hatred that led to the murder 6 million people and the destruction of an entire civilization. This is in living memory, mind you. My grandfather, grandmother, and her brother were the only survivors of their large and extended families. The Polish town they lived in had 2,000 Jews before the war. Just 15 survived.

That's what antisemitism leads to.

And now Hamas wants to do the same thing.

[Oscar_Kipling]

You're a very difficult person to have a conversation with. And the reason for that is that you are very insulting to people. You're accusing me of being a liar. I see why other people here say that they won't continue a conversation with you. Get yourself some manners. Seriously.
It took me about 5 seconds to find the news story in question.

Yes, I'm difficult to have a conversation with. I wasn't accusing you of lying in this particular case, I basically asked you for a source on the mindset of the "protesters" in your story and you presented a seemingly different story that was personally transmitted to you which is fine, anecdotes are fine, but I feel like you said it like I should be aware of your anecdote, and again it appears to be a totally different story. I didn't even look up the story about your daughter's friend because I was only ever asking about the initial story here:


"A Jewish student at Columbia complained to the administration that she felt unsafe as protesters were following her around on campus. (Under NYS Penal law, this is aggravated harassment, an "A misdemeanor".) The administration refused to do anything about it, telling her "You're the only person who feels unsafe"."

Are you suggesting that these 2 stories are in fact the same story?

You sit there behind your keyboard and make fun of a religious minority. A minority that is reporting that they feel like their safety is being ignored by multiple college administrations who are all facing Title VI suits on this very matter.

To be fair I'm not making fun of your religion, just your decision to share a seemingly personally conveyed story that was completely different than the one that I was referring to in a manner that seemed to suggest that you think I should be aware of your daughters friend's admittedly terrible expirience. Sorry, I legit thought it was funny that that made sense to you.

Yeah, I see why people won't talk to you.

Okay maybe it was unfair to assert that you think I'm an "Idiodic dirtbag" when you never actually called me either of those things...that wasn't fair. I should have just said that it feels as if you are hostile toward me, yet I'm still here discussing this topic precisely because I find it interesting.

We're not talking about "other forms of racism". The title of the discussion is "antisemitism".

I mean, I felt like in context it was relevant to speak about racism more generally in order to further clarify the nature of my interest in the topic.



 

Israel's haters are not complaining about the way the war is carried out. They're calling for Israel to surrender. This after the largest slaughter of Jews since the Holocaust and while Hamas is still holding 130 hostages.

It's sick.

Perhaps the Israel haters are not criticizing the way the war is carried out, but I am, or more specifically I've been critical of the way the war is being thought about and framed and the limits of the analogy between Hamas and Nazis. I've also expressed my skepticism of the efficacy of the war regarding future radicalization, the limits of eliminating Hamas through military force, and the post war plan for deradicalization and recidivism prevention. So do you have further issues with those points of critique?

It's a war on Hamas controlled Gaza. WW2 was a war on Nazi controlled Germany.

And I disagree, moreover while I'm fairly certain you have no significant influence over Israeli policy, I do believe that ignoring the broader ideological conflict has the potential to lead to future issues if it is not addressed by policy makers and influencers.

I don't think that you know how to interact politely. You take everything as a slight or a personal attack and throw personal attacks back.

I'm not sure I do either. I read your response as sarcastic, but hey if it wasn't then my mistake for reading sarcasm where there was none and I apologize.

[Oscar_Kipling]

So you don't actually have forebears who were the victims of genocide. I get it.

I'm talking about a hatred that led to the murder 6 million people and the destruction of an entire civilization. This is in living memory, mind you. My grandfather, grandmother, and her brother were the only survivors of their large and extended families. The Polish town they lived in had 2,000 Jews before the war. Just 15 survived.

That's what antisemitism leads to.

And now Hamas wants to do the same thing.

So, does this mean that there is no valid criticism that can be leveraged regarding the war?

[Fenris]

Yes, I'm difficult to have a conversation with. I wasn't accusing you of lying in this particular case, I basically asked you for a source on the mindset of the "protesters" in your story and you presented a seemingly different story that was personally transmitted to you which is fine, anecdotes are fine, but I feel like you said it like I should be aware of your anecdote, and again it appears to be a totally different story.

I wasn't talking about some specific protest, just the general antisocial behavior of these protesters in general.

I didn't even look up the story about your daughter's friend because I was only ever asking about the initial story here:


"A Jewish student at Columbia complained to the administration that she felt unsafe as protesters were following her around on campus. (Under NYS Penal law, this is aggravated harassment, an "A misdemeanor".) The administration refused to do anything about it, telling her "You're the only person who feels unsafe"."

Are you suggesting that these 2 stories are in fact the same story?

One takes place at Columbia University and the other at Cooper Union. Are they the same story or not? You tell me.

To be fair I'm not making fun of your religion, just your decision to share a seemingly personally conveyed story that was completely different than the one that I was referring to in a manner that seemed to suggest that you think I should be aware of your daughters friend's admittedly terrible expirience. Sorry, I legit thought it was funny that that made sense to you.

We're not talking about my religion, we're talking about people who hate Jews. Which is, believe it or not, not a Jewish problem. It's a gentile problem.

Perhaps the Israel haters are not criticizing the way the war is carried out, but I am, or more specifically I've been critical of the way the war is being thought about and framed and the limits of the analogy between Hamas and Nazis. I've also expressed my skepticism of the efficacy of the war regarding future radicalization, the limits of eliminating Hamas through military force, and the post war plan for deradicalization and recidivism prevention. So do you have further issues with those points of critique?

And I have addressed those points, which you ignored.

And I disagree

Then there really isn't much more to talk about, it there?

[Fenris]

So, does this mean that there is no valid criticism that can be leveraged regarding the war?

Yes, of course there can be valid criticism. For example, I feel like Israel should have invaded Rafah already.

[Oscar_Kipling]

I wasn't talking about some specific protest, just the general antisocial behavior of these protesters in general.

yeah okay, so you are specifically talking about people that claim to be protesting, but are in fact strictly using the façade of protest in order to obfuscate their real intention which is to intimidate Jewish people? I definitely agree that there are people like that, I tend to think that they like to hide in the midst of people whose actual intent is to protest much in the same way other types of racists like to use various legitimate policies and positions as cover for their actual racist goals. I think they like to muddy the water that way. If you are strictly talking about those people and not that generally protest or criticism of Israel or the war is generally speaking merely an excuse to intimidate Jewish people then I do not disagree with you. It hasn't been super clear to me that you were making the distinction that i've described here.

One takes place at Columbia University and the other at Cooper Union. Are they the same story or not? You tell me.

So why bring up the cooper station story at all and continue to drill it long after I told you that I was specifically referring to the Columbia story? When I specifically said that perhaps there was confusion about which story I was referring to and then I clarified that it was the Columbia story that I was talking about , Why didn't you just say "Yes, we were referring to 2 different stories" And then go on to provide or explain that you couldn't or wouldn't provide a source to the Columbia story as you understood it. I genuinely don't understand why you thought that what you did instead was supposed to make sense to me.

We're not talking about my religion, we're talking about people who hate Jews. Which is, believe it or not, not a Jewish problem. It's a gentile problem.

you said:
"You sit there behind your keyboard and make fun of a religious minority. A minority that is reporting that they feel like their safety is being ignored by multiple college administrations who are all facing Title VI suits on this very matter."

so I was just clarifying that your nor anyone else religious minority status was what I was making fun of, I was making fun of you as an individual and specifically your baffling choices in this conversation. Now I'm making fun of the fact that you specifically brought up the idea that I was making fun of a religious minority that I think it is safe to say you belong to only to immediately turn around and say "We're not talking about my religion". I feel like I'm talking to an angry bag of squirrels.

And I have addressed those points, which you ignored.

Welp, lets review, The first point that I ignored:


You say:

"It's amazing, because not one person during world war 2 claimed that "bombing Germany will only create more Nazis". When a country is at war with totalitarian state, you have to destroy the state, and worry about deradicalizing the population afterwards.

and I go on to completely ignore it by responding with:

haha, well yeah that's not a bad point. It is true that it is just as conceivable that a concerted effort to implement programs, policies and attitude shifts after reaching the benchmarks that satisfy the total destruction of Hamas in the minds of the folks that have the power to declare that can likely mitigate the generation of would-be future terrorists. I'd argue that Nazis and Hamas and its ilk, while there are ideological parallels (like really hating the Jewish people for instance) and comparable underlying motives & methods ( Like using antisemitism to facilitate recruiting and justification for territorial gains), are fairly dissimilar in some fundamental ways. We are still not rid of Nazis, In part because the ideology therein appeals to the discontentment of those that can consider themselves  the (entirely made up imo) Nazi racial categories. In that way Nazism is not absolutely tied to German national identity, but It was largely a nationalist movement. I say all of that so that you don't absolutely drag me when I claim that the dissimilarities between Nazism and Hamas and similar Islamic terrorist organizations limits the efficacy of a "Bombing Germany" style strategy when applied to them in the sense of how tightly mated to national identity Nazism was and how tightly associated Islam and Islamic nationalism is to Hamas. As a writer of terrible sentences I even recognize that was one of my worst.  Anyway that is before I mention How much more intrinsically accustomed to decentralized power structures and non-traditional warfare these various Islamic groups are (including Hamas although Palestinian nationalism is a key feature for them) than Nazi's during WW2 could have ever hoped to be. All that to say that your point isn't entirely irrelevant, but I would be concerned with overgeneralizing the Nazi parallels especially as they apply to the possibilities of radicalizing folks outside of the "home" nation/state.

So none of that means that a good post conflict plan for mitigating radicalization is some kind of hopeless endeavor,  but it certainly isn't front loaded in the sense that it is readily apparent to me that there is such a plan. I think there is good reason to distrust our wars on terrorism to effectively plan, deploy and support those sorts of long term goals because historically, for whatever reasons it has not appeared to work out that way. This is one reason that I'm personally skeptical that future radicalization will be contained through well considered and implemented policy, outside of what I mentioned in the previous section, as well as just best laid plans.

Anyway, ultimately my original post was critical of the idea that there was some key simple concept that people fail to understand, as opposed to giving at least some folks the credit of understanding well enough but disagreeing or expressing skepticism without being categorized as either inherently anti-Semitic or failing to consider this one simple weight loss secret because the only thinkers will I presume think like you if they are actually thinking.

This is by no means a comprehensive download of all of my thoughts and feeling on the issues at hand , and I'm fine to continue to talk about this if you have further points....heck I'll even make some effort to consider your feelings.   

And it goes on like that for a while back and forth as I point by point ignore all of your posts with a wall of text explaining where I agree with your points and where I disagree. To claim that my points or responses aren't good or lack depth or understanding would be understandable, but to claim that I've simply ignored your responses as this thread evidences the exact opposite makes me wonder if there is some kind of Chinese spyware on your device that is redacting everything I say and replacing it with "I know you are but what am I?"...which is crazy right, that would be too specific, like why would China be specifically targeting my conversation with you? Like are they just beta testing this program on me before they launch it worldwide to cause communication mayhem on barely used religiously affiliated internet forums everywhere?

Then there really isn't much more to talk about, it there?

Honestly after this last post I'm not sure that you were ever taking to me in the first place, as opposed to talking to about how you feel about other people to me.

[Oscar_Kipling]

So, does this mean that there is no valid criticism that can be leveraged regarding the war?

Yes, of course there can be valid criticism. For example, I feel like Israel should have invaded Rafah already.

ha nice one, I suppose that does constitute criticism of the war. you got me there.

[Fenris]

I was making fun of you as an individual

Oh. You were making fun of me. As an individual.

I feel like I'm talking to an angry bag of squirrels.

Ok, you know what? Discussion over. If this forum had a "block" feature I would block you so I'd never have to listen to your nonsense again.

Have a nice life.

[Oscar_Kipling]

Oh. You were making fun of me. As an individual.

Exactly, your religious disposition is merely coincidental.

Ok, you know what? Discussion over. If this forum had a "block" feature I would block you so I'd never have to listen to your nonsense again.

was it ever a discussion though, I really don't feel like you were ever actually engaging with what I was actually saying. Anyway it seems trivially easy to just ignore my posts the old fashioned way honestly.

Have a nice life.

You too.

[IMINXTC]

So, this US resolution to immediately cease fire in Gaza represents an about-face and an attempt to ham-string ongoing American support for Israel's defensive program - a seemingly politically expedient gesture voted down by the UN (China and Russia, of course). The US could have intervened, with an orchestrated human relief effort in Gaza, or, better yet, led a coalition while IDF continues to root out Hamas & terrorists.

Overt political expediency at a time of festering resentment within the US and growing global resistance against Israel.

Blatant public efforts to influence the political structure of sovereign Israel.

[Fenris]

The wise objective would be for the US to support Israel in their mission of smashing the genocidal lunatics that are Hamas. Biden seems to be making the calculation that he needs Muslim votes in Michigan and Minnesota and only by ensuring Hamas' survival can he get those votes. Either he doesn't believe that it will cost him votes of American supporters of Israel, or he doesn't care. He certainly is cavalier about Israeli lives.

The ultimate amusing outcome would be that he carries Michigan and Minnesota but loses the election anyway because he loses a "safe" blue state like NJ.