Is there a Michael - Jesus connection in scripture? What is the history of this?

[Fenris]

:Raises hand:

Uh hi, so I'm just the local Jewish guy, I don't really know a lot about the topic in question. But I have an question to ask. 

The Council of Nicea in the year 325 made a ruling that Jesus is of the same essence (homoousion) as God the Father. Since Michael is designated as some kind of angel, wouldn't that preclude him from also being God? Isn't adopting this position some sort of heresy?

I'll sit down now and wait for an answer.

[Fenris]

the Messiah the Prince

This is a mistranslation. The Hebrew says "an anointed leader". There is no definite article, and the word "מָשִׁ֣יחַ " "messiah" simply means "anointed". All kings and priests at the time were anointed upon taking office. The word appears multiple times in Leviticus when referring to priests, and numerous times in the book of Samuel, referring to the king.

[Athanasius]

:Raises hand:

Uh hi, so I'm just the local Jewish guy, I don't really know a lot about the topic in question. But I have an question to ask. 

The Council of Nicea in the year 325 made a ruling that Jesus is of the same essence (homoousion) as God the Father. Since Michael is designated as some kind of angel, wouldn't that preclude him from also being God? Isn't adopting this position some sort of heresy?

I'll sit down now and wait for an answer.

This guy may be of the homoiousion persuasion.

[Reddogs]

the Messiah the Prince

This is a mistranslation. The Hebrew says "an anointed leader". There is no definite article, and the word "מָשִׁ֣יחַ " "messiah" simply means "anointed". All kings and priests at the time were anointed upon taking office. The word appears multiple times in Leviticus when referring to priests, and numerous times in the book of Samuel, referring to the king.

Well here is Youngs Literal Translation..

Daniel 9:25
Young's Literal Translation
25 And thou dost know, and dost consider wisely, from the going forth of the word to restore and to build Jerusalem till Messiah the Leader [is] seven weeks, and sixty and two weeks: the broad place hath been built again, and the rampart, even in the distress of the times.

[Fenris]

Daniel 9:25
Young's Literal Translation
25 And thou dost know, and dost consider wisely, from the going forth of the word to restore and to build Jerusalem till Messiah the Leader [is] seven weeks, and sixty and two weeks: the broad place hath been built again, and the rampart, even in the distress of the times.

I don't need "Young's literal translation", I'm reading it in the original Hebrew.

But if you're hung up on "Young's literal translation", here's how they translate Isaiah 45:1:

"Thus said Jehovah, To His anointed, to Cyrus"

This is the same Hebrew word as in Daniel 9:25, yet in one instance it's translated as "messiah" and in the other it is translated as "anointed". Curious, no?

Leviticus 4:3, 4:5, 4:16, 6:22, 1 Samuel 2:10, etc etc etc same Hebrew word, "Young's literal translation" has it as "anointed".

[RabbiKnife]

Daniel 9:25
Young's Literal Translation
25 And thou dost know, and dost consider wisely, from the going forth of the word to restore and to build Jerusalem till Messiah the Leader [is] seven weeks, and sixty and two weeks: the broad place hath been built again, and the rampart, even in the distress of the times.

I don't need "Young's literal translation", I'm reading it in the original Hebrew.

But if you're hung up on "Young's literal translation", here's how they translate Isaiah 45:1:

"Thus said Jehovah, To His anointed, to Cyrus"

This is the same Hebrew word as in Daniel 9:25, yet in one instance it's translated as "messiah" and in the other it is translated as "anointed". Curious, no?

Leviticus 4:3, 4:5, 4:16, 6:22, 1 Samuel 2:10, etc etc etc same Hebrew word, "Young's literal translation" has it as "anointed".

Fenris,

Please do not confuse our confirmation bias conclusions with facts.
Thank you.

The Management (TM)

[Reddogs]

Daniel 9:25
Young's Literal Translation
25 And thou dost know, and dost consider wisely, from the going forth of the word to restore and to build Jerusalem till Messiah the Leader [is] seven weeks, and sixty and two weeks: the broad place hath been built again, and the rampart, even in the distress of the times.

I don't need "Young's literal translation", I'm reading it in the original Hebrew.

But if you're hung up on "Young's literal translation", here's how they translate Isaiah 45:1:

"Thus said Jehovah, To His anointed, to Cyrus"

This is the same Hebrew word as in Daniel 9:25, yet in one instance it's translated as "messiah" and in the other it is translated as "anointed". Curious, no?

Leviticus 4:3, 4:5, 4:16, 6:22, 1 Samuel 2:10, etc etc etc same Hebrew word, "Young's literal translation" has it as "anointed".

Read your Bible..

Luke 4:16-21
King James Version
16 And he came to Nazareth, where he had been brought up: and, as his custom was, he went into the synagogue on the sabbath day, and stood up for to read.
17 And there was delivered unto him the book of the prophet Esaias. And when he had opened the book, he found the place where it was written,
18 The Spirit of the Lord is upon me, because he hath anointed me to preach the gospel to the poor; he hath sent me to heal the brokenhearted, to preach deliverance to the captives, and recovering of sight to the blind, to set at liberty them that are bruised,
19 To preach the acceptable year of the Lord.
20 And he closed the book, and he gave it again to the minister, and sat down. And the eyes of all them that were in the synagogue were fastened on him.
21 And he began to say unto them, This day is this scripture fulfilled in your ears.

The word "Christ" or "Messiah" means "Anointed One". Quoting from Isa. 61, Jesus claimed He was anointed of God, not only to preach to the poor, but also to heal the broken hearted, to give the oil of joy for their mourning.

Isaiah 61:1
King James Version
1 The Spirit of the Lord God is upon me; because the Lord hath anointed me to preach good tidings unto the meek; he hath sent me to bind up the brokenhearted, to proclaim liberty to the captives, and the opening of the prison to them that are bound;

[RabbiKnife]

Although Fenris knows more about the New Testamnet than about 80% of the Christians I know, he doesn’t believe the NT to be scripture so an argument that he, a devout God fearing Jew, should accept what is unabashedly a Christian gloss on an unambiguous Hebrew text is likely unsatisfactory.

At least we Christians need to be honest and say that using the word “Messiah” with the capital ‘M’ is interpretive, not straight translation

[Reddogs]

Although Fenris knows more about the New Testamnet than about 80% of the Christians I know, he doesn’t believe the NT to be scripture so an argument that he, a devout God fearing Jew, should accept what is unabashedly a Christian gloss on an unambiguous Hebrew text is likely unsatisfactory.

At least we Christians need to be honest and say that using the word “Messiah” with the capital ‘M’ is interpretive, not straight translation

Ah, I see the problem. But truth is truth...

[Athanasius]

Although Fenris knows more about the New Testamnet than about 80% of the Christians I know, he doesn’t believe the NT to be scripture so an argument that he, a devout God fearing Jew, should accept what is unabashedly a Christian gloss on an unambiguous Hebrew text is likely unsatisfactory.

At least we Christians need to be honest and say that using the word “Messiah” with the capital ‘M’ is interpretive, not straight translation

Ah, I see the problem. But truth is truth...

You're doing textual criticism with Fenris. Now is not the time to appeal to the NT with "truth is truth" as if that's remotely respectful of the argument or Fenris (who has made a solid point about translational bias).

[Fenris]

Luke 4:16-21
King James Version
16 And he came to Nazareth, where he had been brought up: and, as his custom was, he went into the synagogue on the sabbath day, and stood up for to read.
17 And there was delivered unto him the book of the prophet Esaias. And when he had opened the book, he found the place where it was written,
18 The Spirit of the Lord is upon me, because he hath anointed me to preach the gospel to the poor; he hath sent me to heal the brokenhearted, to preach deliverance to the captives, and recovering of sight to the blind, to set at liberty them that are bruised,
19 To preach the acceptable year of the Lord.
20 And he closed the book, and he gave it again to the minister, and sat down. And the eyes of all them that were in the synagogue were fastened on him.
21 And he began to say unto them, This day is this scripture fulfilled in your ears.

The word "Christ" or "Messiah" means "Anointed One". Quoting from Isa. 61, Jesus claimed He was anointed of God, not only to preach to the poor, but also to heal the broken hearted, to give the oil of joy for their mourning.

Isaiah 61:1
King James Version
1 The Spirit of the Lord God is upon me; because the Lord hath anointed me to preach good tidings unto the meek; he hath sent me to bind up the brokenhearted, to proclaim liberty to the captives, and the opening of the prison to them that are bound;

The speaker in Isaiah 61 is the prophet himself. Kings, priests, and prophets were all anointed with oil in biblical times.

You have to be consistent with the translation of the word "מָשַׁח֩ ". You can't decide that it means "the messiah" in some verse and then use that as proof that the verse is talking about the messiah.

[Fenris]

Although Fenris knows more about the New Testamnet than about 80% of the Christians I know, he doesn’t believe the NT to be scripture so an argument that he, a devout God fearing Jew, should accept what is unabashedly a Christian gloss on an unambiguous Hebrew text is likely unsatisfactory.

At least we Christians need to be honest and say that using the word “Messiah” with the capital ‘M’ is interpretive, not straight translation

Thank you!

Also, I don't know any Greek. So I can't have an opinion about the Greek text quoting Hebrew text.

Did I ever tell you about a co-worker I had? Evangelical Christian. Super nice fellow, we had many interesting discussions on the bible and our respective beliefs. He was so devout, and so intellectually curious, that he took the time to learn both biblical Hebrew and classical Greek. Just so that he could read both bibles in their original language and without having to worry about messy translations. 

[Athanasius]

You could know Greek and it wouldn't make a difference here. The problem is simply that the Greek of Luke 4 has no bearing on the Hebrew of Daniel 9. While the question is one of translation, we've quietly skipped over to interpretation. The only way we can appeal to an interpretation like this is to say "it's inspired, and that settles the translation question". But if the task is to prove that, it's just assuming the conclusion over here, begging the question over there...