Its clear in the Bible, you do not go to Heaven or to Hell, when you die.

[RabbiKnife]

Guess some dont like to read what scripture says...

That's a bizarre assumption.

So, you SDA? Or do you find Wright compelling? Or...? Because like RK was saying.

Well if one posts "spamming the same threads", to what is from Gods Word, what would you say?

I wouldn't post the same posts across multiple forums across multiple years. So I'd say, "nuh uh I didn't".

SDA, Wright, or something else?

Does Gods truth change?

God's truth? No, but you're not God. Now, let's watch you dodge again.

SDA, Wright, or something else? I'm thinking you aren't aware of Wright's position and you don't want to answer because you're embarrassed by the not-prophet Ellen G. White.

How is the text from scripture not Gods words of truth...?  If I have misconstrued or misinterpreted, then lets discuss the text and meaning, as it says iron sharpens iron, but we must seek truth not just try to defend mans ideas or Greek philosophy allowed to come into the church.

Who said I disagreed? Right now we're interested in whether you represent the SDA position or some other position. It would be helpful to know because then we could interact with you better. For example, replying to you knowing you're SDA is different from replying to you knowing you found Wrights position compelling.

Right now you just seem shady.

Well my background is history, but here is the Adventist belief. (As for Wright, it appears from what I have read, that he has gone off on a deep tangent in error and needs to go back to core beliefs of Christianity of the early church.)

The State of the Dead
Death and Resurrection​
The wages of sin is death. But God, who alone is immortal, will grant eternal life to His redeemed.
Until that day death is an unconscious state for all people. When Christ, who is our life, appears, the resurrected righteous and the living righteous will be glorified and caught up to meet their Lord.
The second resurrection, the resurrection of the unrighteous, will take place a thousand years later.
(Job 19:25-27; Ps. 146:3, 4; Eccl. 9:5, 6, 10; Dan. 12:2, 13; Isa. 25:8; John 5:28, 29; 11:11-14; Rom. 6:23; 16; 1 Cor. 15:51-54; Col. 3:4; 1 Thess. 4:13-17; 1 Tim. 6:15; Rev. 20:1-10.)

Adventists believe that death is like a sleep until Jesus Christ returns. At that time, those who died in Christ will be resurrected, and the unrighteous will also be resurrected. This belief is supported by various biblical passages, including Ecclesiastes 9:5, Psalm 146:4, and Daniel 12:2

Adventists emphasize that the dead know nothing and are in a state of unconsciousness until the resurrection. This belief is a cornerstone of their theology and provides a clear understanding of the state of the dead and the hope for eternal life.

So we see what Gods Word says how was man made in Gen 2:7
"And the LORD God formed man of the dust of the ground, and breathed into his nostrils the breath of life; and man became a living soul."
When God united His breath, or spirit with man, man became a living soul. A living soul is composed of body and spirit.
When one dies, their spirit goes back to God who gave it, at which point, one is no longer a living soul. This is why humanity is not immortal, and must receive the same from God as a gift of salvation.
The Breath is the Spirit​
We are given in Gods Word, how was man formed? (Body + breath = living soul)
Genesis 2:7 And the LORD God formed man of the dust of the ground, and breathed into his nostrils the breath of life; and man became a living soul.

What is the breath? Breath is equated with the spirit of God.
Job 27:3 All the while my breath is in me, and the spirit of God is in my nostrils.

At death the body returns to dust while the spirit is said to return to God who gave it.
(Silver cord = spine, golden bowl = skull, pitcher = heart, wheel = lungs)

Ecclesiastes 12:6 Or ever the silver cord be loosed, or the golden bowl be broken, or the pitcher be broken at the fountain, or the wheel broken at the cistern. 7 Then shall the dust return to the earth as it was: and the spirit shall return unto God who gave it.

When we are born our breath, as drawn from the surrounding atmosphere, may be said to come from or be given by God and with the same propriety may it be said, when it leaves the body at death to return unto Him. At death the breath or spirit of man is said to be gathered unto God.

Job 34:14 14 If he set his heart upon man, if he [God] gather unto himself his spirit and his breath;15 All flesh shall perish together, and man shall turn again unto dust.

Christ understood that his spirit would return to God at death.

Luke 23:46 And when Jesus had cried with a loud voice, he said, Father, into thy hands I commend my spirit: and having said thus, he gave up the ghost.

Once a man’s spirit or breath is gone his thoughts perish.

Psalm 146:3 Put not your trust in princes, nor in the son of man, in whom there is no help.

4 His breath goeth forth, he returneth to his earth; in that very day his thoughts perish.

The dead know nothing they are unconscious. All their thoughts and feelings are gone.

Ecclesiastes 9:5 For the living know that they shall die: but the dead know not any thing, neither have they any more a reward; for the memory of them is forgotten.
6 Also their love, and their hatred, and their envy, is now perished; neither have they any more a portion for ever in any thing that is done under the sun.

Man is of so little account because his fragile life only remains while he has breath.

Isaiah 2:22 Cease ye from man, whose breath is in his nostrils: for wherein is he to be accounted of?

Man has no pre-eminence over animals. We all die the same. It cannot be proved whether the spirit goes up or downward. The pagan belief was that the spirit of man goes up and the spirit of animals goes down but Solomon says we have the same spirit as the animals and it can’t be proved where the spirit goes at death.

Ecclesiastes 3:19 For that which befalleth the sons of men befalleth beasts; even one thing befalleth them: as the one dieth, so dieth the other; yea, they have all one breath; so that a man hath no preeminence above a beast: for all is vanity.
20 All go unto one place; all are of the dust, and all turn to dust again.
21 Who knoweth the spirit of man that goeth upward, and the spirit of the beast that goeth downward to the earth?

The breath of life is the spirit which God has given both man and beast. It is common to all living things and is not a distinguishing characteristic of man. The dead cannot praise God.

Psalms 30:9 What profit is there in my blood, when I go down to the pit? Shall the dust praise thee? shall it declare thy truth?

The dead cannot give thanks to God.

Psalms 6:5 For in death there is no remembrance of thee: in the grave who shall give thee thanks?

The dead are silent, they do not praise God.

Psalms 115:17 The dead praise not the LORD, neither any that go down into silence.

But God can reverse the death process by creating new bodies and renewing the spirit or breath in them.

Psalms 104:29 Thou hidest thy face, they are troubled: thou takest away their breath, they die, and return to their dust.

30 Thou sendest forth thy spirit, they are created: and thou renewest the face of the earth.
Part 2 – The Unconscious State of the Dead​
Death is compared to sleep so there must be some analogy between a state of sleep and a state of death, and this analogy must pertain to that which renders sleep a peculiar condition. Our condition in sleep differs from our condition when awake simply in this, that when we are soundly asleep, we are entirely unconscious. In this respect death is like sleep; that is, the dead are unconscious. This figure is frequently used to represent the condition of the dead.

Daniel 12:2 And many of them that sleep in the dust of the earth shall awake, some to everlasting life, and some to shame and everlasting contempt.
Matthew 27:52 And the graves were opened; and many bodies of the saints which slept arose,

Christ himself represented death as a sleep saying Lazarus was asleep in death. Lazarus would have remained unconscious sleeping in the grave until the resurrection had he not been raised by Christ.

John 11:11 Our friend Lazarus sleepeth; but I go, that I may awake him out of sleep.
12 Then said his disciples, Lord, if he sleep, he shall do well.

13 Howbeit Jesus spake of his death: but they thought that he had spoken of taking of rest in sleep.

14 Then said Jesus unto them plainly, Lazarus is dead.

24 Martha saith unto him, I know that he shall rise again in the resurrection at the last day.

At death Stephen commended his spirit to God. His spirit being departed he fell asleep becoming unconscious.

Acts 7:59 And they stoned Stephen, calling upon God, and saying, Lord Jesus, receive my spirit.

60 And he kneeled down, and cried with a loud voice, Lord, lay not this sin to their charge. And when he had said this, he fell asleep.

Christ slept in death being entirely unconscious in death.

1 Corinthians 15:20 But now is Christ risen from the dead, and become the firstfruits of them that slept.

When Christ died He commended His spirit into the hands of His Father and gave ghost. But Christ did not ascend to the Father as a ghost or a spirit, otherwise after His resurrection He would not have said “I am not yet ascended to my Father.” Christ remained dead in the grave unconscious until He arose again.

Luke 23:46 And when Jesus had cried with a loud voice, he said, Father, into thy hands I commend my spirit: and having said thus, he gave up the ghost
John 20:17 Jesus saith unto her, Touch me not; for I am not yet ascended to my Father.
Job 14:10 But man dieth, and wasteth away: yea, man giveth up the ghost, and where is he?

David did not ascend to heaven at death but is dead and buried.

Acts 2:29 Men and brethren, let me freely speak unto you of the patriarch David, that he is both dead and buried, and his sepulchre is with us unto this day.
34 For David is not ascended into the heavens: but he saith himself, The LORD said unto my Lord, Sit thou on my right hand,

Some of the Christians who had witnessed Christ alive after his resurrection had themselves died. They had fallen asleep in Christ. But why were they not conscious and awake in heaven if that is where Christians go when they die?

1 Corinthians 15:4 And that he was buried, and that he rose again the third day according to the scriptures:

5 And that he was seen of Cephas, then of the twelve:
6 After that, he was seen of above five hundred brethren at once; of whom the greater part remain unto this present, but some are fallen asleep.

Part 3 – The Resurrection​
Paul told the Christians in Corinth to put their hope in the resurrection of the dead and that without a resurrection their faith was in vain. Paul told them that those who were asleep in Christ would be made alive at the Second Coming of Christ.

1 Corinthians 15:12 Now if Christ be preached that he rose from the dead, how say some among you that there is no resurrection of the dead?

13 But if there be no resurrection of the dead, then is Christ not risen:
14 And if Christ be not risen, then is our preaching vain, and your faith is also vain.
16 For if the dead rise not, then is not Christ raised:
17 And if Christ be not raised, your faith is vain; ye are yet in your sins.
18 Then they also which are fallen asleep in Christ are perished.
22 For as in Adam all die, even so in Christ shall all be made alive.
23 But every man in his own order: Christ the firstfruits; afterward they that are Christ’s at his coming.

Christ promised his disciples that He would come again to receive them unto Himself. Was He lying to them? Why didn’t Christ say that they should come to Him instead in the form of some departed spirit?

John 14:3 And if I go and prepare a place for you, I will come again, and receive you unto myself; that where I am, there ye may be also.

Paul told the Christians in Thessalonica not to sorrow about death as others do because at the Second Coming God would bring forth from the grave those who slept in Jesus.

1 Thessalonians 4:13 But I would not have you to be ignorant, brethren, concerning them which are asleep, that ye sorrow not, even as others which have no hope.
14 For if we believe that Jesus died and rose again, even so them also which sleep in Jesus will God bring with him.
15 For this we say unto you by the word of the Lord, that we which are alive and remain unto the coming of the Lord shall not prevent them which are asleep.
16 For the Lord himself shall descend from heaven with a shout, with the voice of the archangel, and with the trump of God: and the dead in Christ shall rise first:
17 Then we which are alive and remain shall be caught up together with them in the clouds, to meet the Lord in the air: and so shall we ever be with the Lord.
18 Wherefore comfort one another with these words.

Job says the dead are sleeping in the grave waiting for the appointed time. Waiting for the day of resurrection when the heavens are rolled together Rev 6:14 at the Second Coming.

Job 14:10-15 But man dieth, and wasteth away: yea, man giveth up the ghost, and where is he?
11 As the waters fail from the sea, and the flood decayeth and drieth up:
12 So man lieth down, and riseth not: till the heavens be no more, they shall not awake, nor be raised out of their sleep.
13 O that thou wouldest hide me in the grave, that thou wouldest keep me secret, until thy wrath be past, that thou wouldest appoint me a set time, and remember me!
14 If a man die, shall he live again? all the days of my appointed time will I wait, till my change come.
15 Thou shalt call, and I will answer thee: thou wilt have a desire to the work of thine hands.

Paul preached the resurrection of the dead and not departed spirits to those who knew nothing of the gospel.

Acts 17:18 Then certain philosophers of the Epicureans, and of the Stoicks, encountered him. And some said, What will this babbler say? other some, He seemeth to be a setter forth of strange gods: because he preached unto them Jesus, and the resurrection.

Acts 17:32 And when they heard of the resurrection of the dead, some mocked: and others said, We will hear thee again of this matter

Paul himself sought to attain to the resurrection of the dead. He did not seek to go straight to heaven.

Philippians 3:11 If by any means I [Paul] might attain unto the resurrection of the dead.

1. Paul taught both the Christians in Corinth and Thessalonica that their hope was in the resurrection of the dead at the Second Coming.

2. Paul preached the resurrection of the dead to the Greek philosophers who knew nothing of the gospel.

3. Paul himself sought to attain to the resurrection of the dead.

Resurrection is God’s appointed method of bringing souls back to life.

https://adventist.org/beliefs/official/death-and-resurrection

Disingenuous at best, besides being bollocks.

You keep using "they" to describe the SDA while refusing to openly admit that you are a member of the SDA.

That's enough for me to ignore you completely.

[Reddogs]

I already answer that I am a Adventist, back in the first posts. Not quite sure what all the castigation is all about..

[RabbiKnife]

Stop saying what “they believe”

Own up to your own aberrant theology

[Reddogs]

Stop saying what “they believe”

Own up to your own aberrant theology

People seem to want to know, my bad...

[Athanasius]

Stop saying what “they believe”

Own up to your own aberrant theology

People seem to want to know, my bad...

Yeah but you keep distancing yourself. So does that mean you're the kind of SDA that wants to hide Ellen away in a closet in the past?

[Fenris]

Well to be clear, the Hebrew bible does not mention the afterlife at all in any explicit manner. It is hypothesized that this was to make a clean break with the Egyptian culture, which was after all a giant death cult.

The Sadducees who only followed the written law therefore did not believe in an afterlife. 

The Pharisees who carried the oral law and its surrounding traditions did believe in an afterlife, as do religious Jews in modern times.   

[Reddogs]

Well to be clear, the Hebrew bible does not mention the afterlife at all in any explicit manner. It is hypothesized that this was to make a clean break with the Egyptian culture, which was after all a giant death cult.

The Sadducees who only followed the written law therefore did not believe in an afterlife. 

The Pharisees who carried the oral law and its surrounding traditions did believe in an afterlife, as do religious Jews in modern times.

We have a lot of 'Sadducees' and 'Pharisees' even today...

[Fenris]

We have a lot of 'Sadducees' and 'Pharisees' even today...

Yes, normative Orthodox Jews are the philosophical and religious descendants on the first century Pharisees. Regardless of how the NT uses the term, it is not a pejorative in Judaism. The opposite, actually.

[Reddogs]

We have a lot of 'Sadducees' and 'Pharisees' even today...

Yes, normative Orthodox Jews are the philosophical and religious descendants on the first century Pharisees. Regardless of how the NT uses the term, it is not a pejorative in Judaism. The opposite, actually.

Do they still see themselves as of one or the other, or just 'Orthodox'?

[Fenris]

Do they still see themselves as of one or the other, or just 'Orthodox'?

The Pharisees were the Orthodox Jews of their time. I'm not sure what your question is.

[Richard Aberdeen]

According to the Bible, those who die in Jesus immediately go to paradise where God is.  "To be absent from the body is to be present with the Lord."  Jesus told the thief on the cross, "this day you will be with me in paradise."

Those who are not forgiven go to Hades, where they await God's judgment.  Hades is located within the bowls of the earth and is where Jesus went for three days after he was crucified, where he rebuked the demons who are there.

[Reddogs]

Do they still see themselves as of one or the other, or just 'Orthodox'?

The Pharisees were the Orthodox Jews of their time. I'm not sure what your question is.

Would see yourself on the Sadducee's line or the Pharisees line would be my question. As from my experience Jews do not give up or forget their 'lineage'.

[Fenris]

Would see yourself on the Sadducee's line or the Pharisees line would be my question.

The Sadducees and their philosophies did not survive the destruction of Jerusalem by the Romans. On the other hand, the Pharisees wrote the Talmud and that is what observant Jews study today.

As from my experience

Which means nothing, really.

Jews do not give up or forget their 'lineage'.

I don't know what this means.

[John8:32]

That’s funny

The thief on the cross was immediately in the presence of Jesus in paradise

To be absent from the body is to be present with the Lors

You read a funny Bible

I’ll ask again

Are you Seventh Day Adventist?

First of all, I am not an SDA.  Not that I have any problem with them, I am just stating a fact.  Now with that stated let’s look at you statement about the thief going to Paradise at that moment. 

Luke 23:42-43 Then he said to Jesus, “Lord, remember me when You come into Your kingdom.”
And Jesus said to him, “Assuredly, I say to you, today you will be with Me in Paradise.”


First point to consider is that there is no punctuation in the Greek manuscripts.  The comma was added much later. 

Now the statement Jesus makes “Assuredly, I say to you, TODAY you will be with Me in Paradise.”

How long was Christ in the tomb?

Mat 12:40 For as Jonah was three days and three nights in the belly of the great fish, so will the Son of Man be three days and three nights in the heart of the earth.

Not parts of a day or some such adjustment to try to make this fit a Friday Afternoon burial to a Sunday morning resurrection.  Christ was crucified on the Passover which was a Wednesday in AD31.  There is another discussion about the decree to rebuild the Temple in 457BC and 69 weeks (483) years.  Anyhoo, Jesus was in the tomb three days and three nights, a day being 12 hours.

John 11:9-10 Jesus answered, “Are there not TWELVE HOURS in the day? If anyone walks in the day, he does not stumble, because he sees the light of this world. But if one walks in the night, he stumbles, because the light is not in him.”

Now another point

John 20:1-2 Now the first day of the week Mary Magdalene went to the tomb early, while it was still dark, and saw that the stone had been taken away from the tomb. Then she ran and came to Simon Peter, and to the other disciple, whom Jesus loved, and said to them, “They have taken away the Lord out of the tomb, and we do not know where they have laid Him.”

Still dark and He was already resurrected. Of course, three days and three nights from Wednesday afternoon is Saturday afternoon.

Now,was Jesus in Paradise yet?

John 20:17 Jesus said to her, “Do not cling to Me, for I have not yet ascended to My Father; but go to My brethren and say to them, I am ascending to My Father and your Father, and to My God and your God.’ ”

Jesus was still on Earth.  He had not yet ascended to the Father to present Himself as the Wave Sheaf, the perfect offering for our sins.

So, with all that said, by your reckoning, the thief had already went to Paradise or Heaven or whatever you call it three days before Christ.  That makes Jesus the SECOND BORN AMONG MANY BRETHREN.

Col 1:15 He is the image of the invisible God, the firstborn over all creation.

Now let’s understand what that verse really means.

If we are going to place a comma in Luke 23:43, let’s place it where it fits the rest of the Scriptures

And Jesus said to him, “Assuredly, I say to you today, you will be with Me in Paradise.”

I’m telling you today that in that day of the resurrection, you will be with me in Paradise. 

I Ths 4:15-17 For this we say to you by the word of the Lord, that we who are alive and remain until the coming of the Lord will by no means precede those who are asleep. For the Lord Himself will descend from heaven with a shout, with the voice of an archangel, and with the trumpet of God. And the dead in Christ will rise first. Then we who are alive and remain shall be caught up together with them in the clouds to meet the Lord in the air. And thus we shall always be with the Lord.

At Christ’s coming

I Cor 15:51-52 Behold, I tell you a mystery: We shall not all sleep, but we shall all be changed— in a moment, in the twinkling of an eye, at the last trumpet. For the trumpet will sound, and the dead will be raised incorruptible, and we shall be changed.

[NeutralZone]

That’s funny

The thief on the cross was immediately in the presence of Jesus in paradise

To be absent from the body is to be present with the Lors

You read a funny Bible

I’ll ask again

Are you Seventh Day Adventist?

According to scripture, Jesus was in the grave for three entire days before he was resurrected back to life by the Abrahamic God. 

English Standard Version -- Matthew 12:40      https://biblehub.com/esv/matthew/12.htm
"For just as Jonah was three days and three nights in the belly of the great fish, so will the Son of Man be three days and three nights in the heart of the earth."


Not only did Jesus spend three days in the grave, he remained on earth for at least 40 days after his resurrection, according to scripture.


Berean Standard Bible -- Acts 1:3      https://biblehub.com/bsb/acts/1.htm
"After His suffering, He [Jesus] presented Himself to them with many convincing proofs that He was alive. He appeared to them over a span of forty days and spoke about the kingdom of God."


So according to scripture, the thief who died with Jesus was not, as you believe, "immediately in the presence of Jesus in paradise."