About identity of cities in Revelation 18

[Fenris]

The more pressing issue is that numerology isn't theology, it's BS.

Gematria can be cute. For example, in Hebrew the gematria of the word "wine" is the same as the word "secret". The implication being that when one drinks wine, secrets come out. I find this amusing. I wouldn't use gematria in theology, or to prove anything though. There are enough explicit messages in the bible that I don't feel the need to find hidden or esoteric ones...

[RabbiKnife]

The more pressing issue is that numerology isn't theology, it's BS.

Gematria can be cute. For example, in Hebrew the gematria of the word "wine" is the same as the word "secret". The implication being that when one drinks wine, secrets come out. I find this amusing. I wouldn't use gematria in theology, or to prove anything though. There are enough explicit messages in the bible that I don't feel the need to find hidden or esoteric ones...

I once heard that the gematria for “bacon” is “crispy tasty salty delicious fruit of the swine,” but I didn’t take it seriously because I didn’t think there were enough letters…

Pesach soon, Fenris… Mrs. Fenris working up any especially delectable surprises for this year? 

[Fenris]

I once heard that the gematria for “bacon” is “crispy tasty salty delicious fruit of the swine,” but I didn’t take it seriously because I didn’t think there were enough letters…

 

Pesach soon, Fenris… Mrs. Fenris working up any especially delectable surprises for this year?

We were planning on being in Jerusalem with my son and daughter in law. We had plane tickets and a place waiting for us. Obviously our plans changed. The Mrs. will be doing some great cooking, but hasn't started yet...

[Fenris]

    God would use someone else if I refused, and maybe He is already using others to bring these same observations forwards. But if I don't do my part, something is lost. Someone is lost.
    Recently I came to conclusion that there is enough reason to warn, enough reason to proceed to other people.

Why is the self-appointed prophet a thing?

[Tomi Laakso]

The idea time =  360 days is crucial also there.

You haven't explained the source of this idea yet. Where does the bible say that "time = 360 days"?

    Sorry if I haven't explained it well. I pointed to it briefly. I try to do it better now. It is based on the idea that Revelation 12:6 and 12:14 speak about the same issue in different ways, and it finds support from intervals of Revelation 13:5 and Daniel 7:25 being the same.
    Revelation 12:6 says: "and the woman fled into the wilderness, where she has a place prepared by God, in which she is to be nourished for 1,260 days." In the Greek there is essentially: place that has been prepared by God in order to nourish her there for 1260 days. So it does not say that she was nourished there for that time and then came verses 7-13 and then verse 14. I believe that the war in heaven (7-12) happened after resurrection, and that the time intervals of verses 6 and 14 were ongoing at the time of resurrection. Usually people see the intervals of 6 and 14 being connected to the time of tribulation. Many think that they both refer to a specific approximately 3.5-year time in the end times. Where I agree with many of them is that the verses speak about the same thing and therefore time intervals are the same, which is what is needed for the idea time=360 days. But I disagree with the verses referring exclusively to some tribulation-time period (or to the tribulation time period itself). The period of 42 months when the beast rules the world is part of what they refer to, and an important special fulfillment of a more general issue, but not the exclusive sense, I believe. (I believe they refer to God's protection to the church and Israel from apostolic times to the last generation before 1000-year kingdom, with that generation included.)
    Revelation 12:14 says: "But the woman was given the two wings of the great eagle so that she might fly from the serpent into the wilderness, to the place where she is to be nourished for a time, and times, and half a time." Here the original text has a definite article: to the place of her; and nourishing is in present. The place is thus the same one referred before in verse 6. Many understand like me that the verses 6 and 14 speak about the same issue in two different ways. Both the time and the place are the same. From this comes "time, times and half a time = 1260 days” and “time = 360 days”. (Both verses 6 and 14 also add some details to the picture.)
    Some believe that the war in heaven (verses 7-12) happened at the beginning of history or something like that. But this fits poorly to verses 11-13. And verse 8 would also contradict Job chapter 1 with such interpretation. But even in that interpretation one sees that the 1260 days interval was not completed before the war happened, quite the opposite. It still allows the verses 6 and 14 beginning at the same time essentially, and speaking about the same thing, since the war that was mentioned in between them was actually before both.
     It is written about the beast of the Revelation that: "And a mouth was given to it, speaking great things and blasphemy, and it was given authority to act forty and two months." (Revelation 13:5). Verse 7 says: "And there was given to it to make war with the saints, and to overcome them. And authority was given to it over every tribe and people and tongue and nation.". These can be compared to Daniel 7:25: "He shall speak words against the Most High, and shall wear out the saints of the Most High, and shall think to change the times and the law; and they shall be given into his hand for a time, times, and half a time." . These two refer to the same time interval, I believe like many others. That is in firm grounds, for an eschatological claim. So here time = 12 months, but time could be a Babylonian year of 360 days in the light of Revelation 12:6 and 14 -with months being 30 days each.
    If we know that the place mentioned in Revelation 12:6 and 14 is the same, and verse 14 has the interval of 42 months with some interpretation of month, and 6 has the interval of 1260 days, that is 42 months of 30 days, we are pretty close to saying that the intervals are the same.
     Of course it is not the only possible interpretation, that the time intervals of Revelation 12:6 and 12:14 are the same. But it is a reasonable interpretation. Nothing far-fetched. Very few things in eschatology are immediately obviously certain. Further confirmation to the idea that time = 360 days in time, times and half comes from the fact that this idea helps to uncover what is in Daniel 12 and connects it to Daniel 8. Fulfilled data on history can be seen from these.

[Fenris]

Ok, so if I understand you correctly, what you're saying is that the mathematical equation "Time, Time, plus a half Time equals 1260 days."

So let's solve for "X", where "X" = "Time".

X + X + X/2 = 1260.

Combining the left side, we get 5X/2 = 1260.

Multiply both sides by 2 to get rid of the denominator, we end up with 5X = 2520.

Divide both sides by 5, and we get X = 504.

Checking to make sure that this is correct, 504 + 504 + 504/2 = 1260.

So "Time" in this equation equals 504, not 360.

Other issues:

time could be a Babylonian year of 360 days in the light of Revelation 12:6 and 14

The Babylonians knew that the year was 365 days, not 360. And why would the author of Revelation, who was most certainly a Jewish-Christian, use the defunct Babylonian calendar instead of the Jewish one (which I explained above) or the Roman one (365.25 days)? Nobody else was using the Babylonian calendar by the first century.

So here time = 12 months, but time could be a Babylonian year of 360 days in the light of Revelation 12:6 and 14 -with months being 30 days each.

So time is 360 days, or 12 months, or whatever you need it to be? This seems very inconsistent.

Of course it is not the only possible interpretation, that the time intervals of Revelation 12:6 and 12:14 are the same. But it is a reasonable interpretation. Nothing far-fetched. Very few things in eschatology are immediately obviously certain.

I agree, it's impossible to know these things for certain. My question therefore is, why bother? Is the fate of my immortal soul dependent on my understanding of a few obscure passages scattered throughout the bible? Because it seems to me like what's important for a Christian to believe in God and accept Jesus's sacrifice. It seems much more explicit and reasonable than jumping through mathematical hoops using tenuous logic.

But I'm the local Jewish guy, so what do I know?

[RabbiKnife]

You know what the essential Gospel is, unlike many claiming to be Christian

 

[teddyv]

Ok, so if I understand you correctly, what you're saying is that the mathematical equation "Time, Time, plus a half Time equals 1260 days."

So let's solve for "X", where "X" = "Time".

X + X + X/2 = 1260.

Combining the left side, we get 5X/2 = 1260.

Multiply both sides by 2 to get rid of the denominator, we end up with 5X = 2520.

Divide both sides by 5, and we get X = 504.

Checking to make sure that this is correct, 504 + 504 + 504/2 = 1260.

So "Time" in this equation equals 504, not 360.

Other issues:

time could be a Babylonian year of 360 days in the light of Revelation 12:6 and 14

The Babylonians knew that the year was 365 days, not 360. And why would the author of Revelation, who was most certainly a Jewish-Christian, use the defunct Babylonian calendar instead of the Jewish one (which I explained above) or the Roman one (365.25 days)? Nobody else was using the Babylonian calendar by the first century.

So here time = 12 months, but time could be a Babylonian year of 360 days in the light of Revelation 12:6 and 14 -with months being 30 days each.

So time is 360 days, or 12 months, or whatever you need it to be? This seems very inconsistent.

Of course it is not the only possible interpretation, that the time intervals of Revelation 12:6 and 12:14 are the same. But it is a reasonable interpretation. Nothing far-fetched. Very few things in eschatology are immediately obviously certain.

I agree, it's impossible to know these things for certain. My question therefore is, why bother? Is the fate of my immortal soul dependent on my understanding of a few obscure passages scattered throughout the bible? Because it seems to me like what's important for a Christian to believe in God and accept Jesus's sacrifice. It seems much more explicit and reasonable than jumping through mathematical hoops using tenuous logic.

But I'm the local Jewish guy, so what do I know?

As I recall, it's Time, Times (i.e 2x) and half a time. So 1260/3.5= 360.
Not sure how you got 5X out of that equation. I see 2.5X

[Tomi Laakso]

The more pressing issue is that numerology isn't theology, it’s

[I suppose you continue with a shortcut of an expletive; as a foreigner I am poorly familiar with such]
    I would not classify my work as numerology. Later in this message I explain why, and possibly continue in a later message.  First I would like to mention that I share with you your low view of numerology to some extent. Typical idea among those who practise gematria is that if numbers of Hebrew words coincide, then at least in some cases this is related to some connection between the theological concepts. I find such a principle extra-Biblical. I do not assume or use such principle in my work, nor do I endorse it. I endorse Sola Scriptura.
    Bible speaks about a valid use of gematria. That is the calculation of the number of the beast. So, one cannot say, that gematria should never be used by sober Christians in any way. But this could be the only case when the number has meaning in itself.
    What comes to non-gematric numerology, there are some Bible-verses where 7 has a theological meaning, but usually these are not important for the message of the Bible. I know very few exceptions: In Luke 17:4 the number 7 probably refers to completeness; the verse hardly means that if someone sins against you 8 times in a day, you no longer need to forgive, but it means that you should forgive as many times as needed (7 being the number of perfectness). Matthew 18:22 has a similar point. The Lamb having 7 eyes in the Revelation can have somewhat important point, but these are all I know. God might have His reasons why there were exactly 7 trumpets and 7 seals etc in the Revelation, but it could be that we don’t need to know that, or knowing is unimportant. If someone would like discuss, for example, why in the parable of 10 virgins the number was exactly 10, I would say that if there is some message in that, the issue is very very much besides the point, and would be a distraction of attention. It could very well be that non-gematric numerology beyond the meaning of number 7 is nonsense, at least most of what is written about it.
    I do not want my work to increase interest or attention to numerology nor do I want people to take numerology more seriously because of my work.

    So, why is my work not numerology?

First, gematric values of names (of cities etc.) are used there only as a means of reference. They are not used for connections of theological concepts as in gematric numerology.

Second, non-gematric meanings of numbers (like 7 being the number of perfectness) play no role in my work whatsoever.

Third, gematric connections themselves are not used for inference of details in my work. That is, for example, if there is a city, whose number equals the number of phrase “nuclear explosions”, that is not regarded as evidence that there will be nuclear explosions in that city. There is such a city, actually. Number of Sankt Petersburg is 719, the same as the number of nuclear explosions. This, in itself, means nothing. What is in the prophetic message number system matters. (The number 719 does appear in the system, even in a critical place, so there could be something meaningful there related to it. It appears together with numerous other references to nuclear explosions or Revelation 18:4. So, reference to nuclear explosions is confirmed there, to put it simply. Then another question is, whether the reference to Sankt Petersburg too is a message by God or just a coincidence. One should look, whether it is accompanied by other references related to Sankt Petersburg. If yes, then we see that reference to Sankt Petersburg appears together with reference to nuclear explosions and Revelation 18:4. This is noteworthy, because of the text of Revelation 17 and 18, since, for example, the city was an imperial capital.)
    If numbers of some cities coincide or satisfy a relation with each other, it means nothing. It is just numerology. Example: the number of Berlin is twice the number of London. Means nothing.

   Concerning the first point above, recall that I proposed the first condition for the use of prophetic message numbers as: “First, the messages [of the numbers] should be about details [of prophecies], not doctrines. That is, the messages should be about times, places and other outer details [of prophecies], not doctrinal statements or claims about spiritual concepts.” I emphasize that prophetic message numbers either appear in the prophetic text of the Bible itself or correspond to it’s expressions in a non-gematric, non-numerological way. So, when we talk about a number of a city, it is not a prophetic message number in itself, but it can appear in a representation of a prophetic message number (or, in theory, can be equal to some prophetic message number). There is nothing spiritual in the number of the city being this or that. There is no need to figure out, what is the spiritually correct way to write the name and calculate the number. The common, established form is what God uses in these references. Such references are more compelling than those where each one could design their own versions of the spelling and therefore the number.

[Athanasius]

That is, for example, if there is a city, whose number equals the number of phrase “nuclear explosions”, that is not regarded as evidence that there will be nuclear explosions in that city. There is such a city, actually. Number of Sankt Petersburg is 719, the same as the number of nuclear explosions. This, in itself, means nothing.

For it would be mere numerology -- okay.

What is in the prophetic message number system matters. (The number 719 does appear in the system, even in a critical place, so there could be something meaningful there related to it. It appears together with numerous other references to nuclear explosions or Revelation 18:4. So, reference to nuclear explosions is confirmed there, to put it simply. Then another question is, whether the reference to Sankt Petersburg too is a message by God or just a coincidence. One should look, whether it is accompanied by other references related to Sankt Petersburg. If yes, then we see that reference to Sankt Petersburg appears together with reference to nuclear explosions and Revelation 18:4. This is noteworthy, because of the text of Revelation 17 and 18, since, for example, the city was an imperial capital.)

But then you go on to do it anyway. All you've done is said "I'm doing it this way so it's okay, but those people over there doing it that way is not okay". It's still the same thing, it's just your pet approach.

[Fenris]

As I recall, it's Time, Times (i.e 2x) and half a time. So 1260/3.5= 360.
Not sure how you got 5X out of that equation. I see 2.5X

Aww you mean I did all that math for nothing?! 

Interestingly enough, there are Jewish commentators on Daniel 7 who say that this refers to a past event: Counting the years from the Exodus to the destruction of the second Temple in Jerusalem as being 1260 years.

Anyway the OP still has yet to explain why the numerology takes precedence over the plain text of the bible. "You have the obligation to uphold these laws as part of a covenant (for Jews)" or "You have to believe in God and the sacrifice that Jesus made (for Christians)" but "What's really important is this super secret message that I've hidden in some obscure passages, and if you miss this then you're doomed forever. Doomed forever, did you miss that part?"

And it's not religious authorities finding "the secret". It's not the Pope, or Martin Luther, or even Donall and Connall explaining it to Patrick. It's random internet people with too much time on their hands.

[Fenris]

    Bible speaks about a valid use of gematria. That is the calculation of the number of the beast. So, one cannot say, that gematria should never be used by sober Christians in any way.

What we have is the bible using such a methodology one time. If you believe that the bible is holy writ, then the authors of the various books of the bible were divinely inspired. That doesn't mean that you are.

        So, why is my work not numerology?

It is, though. You're just saying that when you do it, it is okay.

[RabbiKnife]

As I recall, it's Time, Times (i.e 2x) and half a time. So 1260/3.5= 360.
Not sure how you got 5X out of that equation. I see 2.5X

Aww you mean I did all that math for nothing?! 

Interestingly enough, there are Jewish commentators on Daniel 7 who say that this refers to a past event: Counting the years from the Exodus to the destruction of the second Temple in Jerusalem as being 1260 years.

Anyway the OP still has yet to explain why the numerology takes precedence over the plain text of the bible. "You have the obligation to uphold these laws as part of a covenant (for Jews)" or "You have to believe in God and the sacrifice that Jesus made (for Christians)" but "What's really important is this super secret message that I've hidden in some obscure passages, and if you miss this then you're doomed forever. Doomed forever, did you miss that part?"

And it's not religious authorities finding "the secret". It's not the Pope, or Martin Luther, or even Donall and Connall explaining it to Patrick. It's random internet people with too much time on their hands.

I have a Jewish rabbinical student now declaring Donall and Connell as religious authorities!!!!

My work here is finished

🤔

[Tomi Laakso]

Anyway the OP still has yet to explain why the numerology takes precedence over the plain text of the bible. "You have the obligation to uphold these laws as part of a covenant (for Jews)" or "You have to believe in God and the sacrifice that Jesus made (for Christians)" but "What's really important is this super secret message that I've hidden in some obscure passages, and if you miss this then you're doomed forever. Doomed forever, did you miss that part?"

Dear Fenris

    I did not mean that things I discovered are more important or equally important than the basic gospel message. When I talked about the importance of the issue for salvation of [some] souls, I ment that if an unsaved person dies suddenly in the nuclear explosions, he loses the chance to salvation, because he has no more time on Earth to repent and believe the gospel.
    Think about the following situation. Suppose you were a head of a family, a Christian or a Jewish believer, and that your teenage children were at the moment in the state of apostasy. If it were true, that a nuclear terrorist attack was coming to your city, surely you would like to know it forehand if possible, so that you could bring your family to safety and get more time for your children to repent.
    Actually, most people who die because of nuclear explosion die a slow and painful death. Some live minutes, some hours, some days, some live weeks or months. If they know that God of the Bible warned forehand, that increases the probability of turning to Jesus in their last minutes or hours or whatever time it takes.

[Tomi Laakso]

    Actually, most people who die because of nuclear explosion die a slow and painful death.

    At least that was the case in Hiroshima and Nagasaki. Ground level terrorist attack in a city full of skyscrapers can have a different distribution of ways of death.