Doctrine of Original Sin

[ProDeo]

What does "fallen state" mean? I'm assuming "made lower" refers to Hebrews 2:7.

I don't mean Hebrews, I do mean that unlike A&E we never had a choice, sinners by default.

As far as we know, A&E were never children. And I agree that we're in a state of separation by default, and as a consequence of that we sin, but that is a choice in a way that ontological corruption isn't. You, and I, and everyone here could say no. And in fact many times we do. But that doesn't resolve the separation (Jesus restored that), and very many times we don't (say no).

So what does "made lower" mean?

I already explained it, A&E had a choice, we don't. We are not created as an adult in Paradise living in the wonderful presence of God with just one simple commandment. Unlike A&E we are born totally helpless, are in need for much care, are dependent of who our parents are (not God), overloaded with right's and wrong's, do's and dont's during our upbringing, if we are lucky we are born in a Christian country, even more lucky in a Christian family. If we are lucky we are told about God and come to the realization that we are sinners and that we have to make a choice, before or against Him. And fight sin. It's a life full of spiritual struggle and then we die, nothing we can do about it, we are what we are and we are totally incomparable to A&E. I wish I would have had the same chance as A&E, living in the presence of God's love, I surely would not eat of the forbidden tree, or did I had that chance already?

Even Augustine considered it -  Tell me, I beg you, tell your miserable suppliant, merciful God, whether my infancy was itself the sequel to some earlier age, now dead and gone. Was there nothing before it, except the life I lived in my mother's womb? Some information about that has been given mc, and I have myself seen pregnant women. But then, my God, my sweetness, what came before that? Was I somewhere else? Was I even someone? I have nobody to tell me: neither father nor mother could enlighten me, nor the experience of others, nor any memory of my own. Are you laughing at me for asking you these questions, and are you perhaps commanding me to praise you and confess to you simply about what I do know?

Ain't it remarkable when Adam ate the Lord God gave A&E exactly what they desired? They (like God) wanted to know about good and evil and the Lord moved them to the evolved Earth, an excellent place, full of good and full of evil with death ruling as a necessity.

[RabbiKnife]

Why did A&E have a choice and I don’t?

[Athanasius]

What does "fallen state" mean? I'm assuming "made lower" refers to Hebrews 2:7.

I don't mean Hebrews, I do mean that unlike A&E we never had a choice, sinners by default.

As far as we know, A&E were never children. And I agree that we're in a state of separation by default, and as a consequence of that we sin, but that is a choice in a way that ontological corruption isn't. You, and I, and everyone here could say no. And in fact many times we do. But that doesn't resolve the separation (Jesus restored that), and very many times we don't (say no).

So what does "made lower" mean?

I already explained it, A&E had a choice, we don't. We are not created as an adult in Paradise living in the wonderful presence of God with just one simple commandment. Unlike A&E we are born totally helpless, are in need for much care, are dependent of who our parents are (not God), overloaded with right's and wrong's, do's and dont's during our upbringing, if we are lucky we are born in a Christian country, even more lucky in a Christian family. If we are lucky we are told about God and come to the realization that we are sinners and that we have to make a choice, before or against Him. And fight sin. It's a life full of spiritual struggle and then we die, nothing we can do about it, we are what we are and we are totally incomparable to A&E. I wish I would have had the same chance as A&E, living in the presence of God's love, I surely would not eat of the forbidden tree, or did I had that chance already?

Even Augustine considered it -  Tell me, I beg you, tell your miserable suppliant, merciful God, whether my infancy was itself the sequel to some earlier age, now dead and gone. Was there nothing before it, except the life I lived in my mother's womb? Some information about that has been given mc, and I have myself seen pregnant women. But then, my God, my sweetness, what came before that? Was I somewhere else? Was I even someone? I have nobody to tell me: neither father nor mother could enlighten me, nor the experience of others, nor any memory of my own. Are you laughing at me for asking you these questions, and are you perhaps commanding me to praise you and confess to you simply about what I do know?

Ain't it remarkable when Adam ate the Lord God gave A&E exactly what they desired? They (like God) wanted to know about good and evil and the Lord moved them to the evolved Earth, an excellent place, full of good and full of evil with death ruling as a necessity.

What is the choice that we don't have that A&E had?

One of the lessons of A&E is this: we would all have sinned in the garden. Not because we have a corrupted nature, but because we're imperfect. "Good", not "perfect". So when's the last time you felt the anxiety of looking at your wife as she held a fruit from a tree you weren't supposed to eat. The anxiety that worsens as you see her take a bite, and the conflict that erupts inside as she then hands it to you? This woman who is the only one in existence, and was made from you? Do you really think you're choosing God in the same circumstance with the same parameters? You're a better person than me.

I don't think that fruit was anything special, by the way. They gained knowledge of good and evil by practicing evil. They didn't simply know, they did. And then they did some more because, well, imagine that cognitive and emotional awakening. All of those thoughts and feelings for the first time ever. The fear, pain, the horror, the anxiety, the resentment, the distrust. God could have easily just said, "don't walk over there or you'll surely die" and the result is the same. The lesson was in love, the specifics of the "do not" don't matter. The fruit is interesting because it means they took something inside of them -- experience, and also knowledge, and that was passed to us by virtue of the world.

With A&E we trade in advantages and disadvantages. Should you find yourself as you are today with that choice, you'd never take the fruit. You know what they couldn't, but if they could know? I don't think they would have either. But they lived something we can't imagine. They sinned there, we sin here.

So what's that "choice" that they had that we don't?

[ProDeo]

Why did A&E have a choice and I don’t?

In other words then -

Because A&E did not have to fall with one simple commandment. We (and more than 100 billion that ever lived) did fall by default with reference to Romans 3:3 - For all have sinned, and come short of the glory of God; Created in a fallen state, missing something A&E had, created lower. Sinners by default, no escape.

Same with the angels, they also have free will, some did fall, the vast majority remained loyal upon this day. Same principle as A&E, those angels who fell did not have to fall.

With respect to the other differences I listed, we can not compare the life of A&E created in the presence of God as adults with our earthy life outside the presence of God.

On the bright side, our stay on Earth is just a blip in time of eternity when everything is restored by Jesus and we will live in the presence of God in eternity as originally intended by our good Lord.

In the hope it is more clear now.

[ProDeo]

What does "fallen state" mean? I'm assuming "made lower" refers to Hebrews 2:7.

I don't mean Hebrews, I do mean that unlike A&E we never had a choice, sinners by default.

As far as we know, A&E were never children. And I agree that we're in a state of separation by default, and as a consequence of that we sin, but that is a choice in a way that ontological corruption isn't. You, and I, and everyone here could say no. And in fact many times we do. But that doesn't resolve the separation (Jesus restored that), and very many times we don't (say no).

So what does "made lower" mean?

I already explained it, A&E had a choice, we don't. We are not created as an adult in Paradise living in the wonderful presence of God with just one simple commandment. Unlike A&E we are born totally helpless, are in need for much care, are dependent of who our parents are (not God), overloaded with right's and wrong's, do's and dont's during our upbringing, if we are lucky we are born in a Christian country, even more lucky in a Christian family. If we are lucky we are told about God and come to the realization that we are sinners and that we have to make a choice, before or against Him. And fight sin. It's a life full of spiritual struggle and then we die, nothing we can do about it, we are what we are and we are totally incomparable to A&E. I wish I would have had the same chance as A&E, living in the presence of God's love, I surely would not eat of the forbidden tree, or did I had that chance already?

Even Augustine considered it -  Tell me, I beg you, tell your miserable suppliant, merciful God, whether my infancy was itself the sequel to some earlier age, now dead and gone. Was there nothing before it, except the life I lived in my mother's womb? Some information about that has been given mc, and I have myself seen pregnant women. But then, my God, my sweetness, what came before that? Was I somewhere else? Was I even someone? I have nobody to tell me: neither father nor mother could enlighten me, nor the experience of others, nor any memory of my own. Are you laughing at me for asking you these questions, and are you perhaps commanding me to praise you and confess to you simply about what I do know?

Ain't it remarkable when Adam ate the Lord God gave A&E exactly what they desired? They (like God) wanted to know about good and evil and the Lord moved them to the evolved Earth, an excellent place, full of good and full of evil with death ruling as a necessity.

What is the choice that we don't have that A&E had?

See my answer to RK.

One of the lessons of A&E is this: we would all have sinned in the garden.

That's an assumption, you can not know.

As evidence, a number of angels fell, not the vast majority.

A&E did not had to fall.

Not because we have a corrupted nature, but because we're imperfect. "Good", not "perfect". So when's the last time you felt the anxiety of looking at your wife as she held a fruit from a tree you weren't supposed to eat. The anxiety that worsens as you see her take a bite, and the conflict that erupts inside as she then hands it to you? This woman who is the only one in existence, and was made from you? Do you really think you're choosing God in the same circumstance with the same parameters? You're a better person than me.

Humor after all

Some regarding the temptation will say, they, A&E wanted to be like God. I understand it as A&E insisted to know what God withheld from them, to know not only good but to be like God knowing evil also. Either way, it's rebellion. And ironically (if that is a good word) they got what they wanted.

Unfortunately the story does not tell us if they understood what "you surely shall die" meant.

[Richard Aberdeen]

Modern science agrees with the Bible and specifically with Jeremiah, that human beings possess something extremely dark within them.  As Jeremiah says, "the heart is deceitful and above all, desperately wicked."  This is what science variously calls "the dark core of human personality" and "the seething mass within."

This is not a doctrine; it is the reality of the human condition.  The Bible is about what is true and false, not about doctrinal belief.

The word mistranslated as "doctrine" in modern Bibles simply means teaching; there is correct teaching and bad teaching.  There is no such thing as "doctrines" in the Bible.

And like Jeremiah long ago says, science agrees that such darkness deep within is deceitful as to our true surface intentions; see Jeremiah 17:9. Calling "sin" something else does not change the reality of our dark and dangerous human condition one iota, nor the horrendous greed, hatred, war and other violence, racism, slavery, murder, rape, theft, lies, mass pollution and corruption that human sin causes:

The Dark Core of Human Personality
https://www.sciencedaily.com/releases/2018/09/180926110841.htm

[Fenris]

And like Jeremiah long ago says, science agrees that such darkness deep within is deceitful as to our true surface intentions; see Jeremiah 17:9.

Chapter begins: Judah’s sin is engraved with an iron tool...

This is a specific rebuke for the Jews living in Judea at that time. Not a general statement for all of humanity for all time.

What else does that chapter say?

This is what the Lord says: Be careful not to carry a load on the Sabbath day or bring it through the gates of Jerusalem. Do not bring a load out of your houses or do any work on the Sabbath, but keep the Sabbath day holy, as I commanded your ancestors. Yet they did not listen or pay attention; they were stiff-necked and would not listen or respond to discipline. But if you are careful to obey me, declares the Lord, and bring no load through the gates of this city on the Sabbath, but keep the Sabbath day holy by not doing any work on it, then kings who sit on David’s throne will come through the gates of this city with their officials. They and their officials will come riding in chariots and on horses, accompanied by the men of Judah and those living in Jerusalem, and this city will be inhabited forever.

Is that also an eternal truth for all humanity for all time?