GRAND CANYON PROVES THE GENESIS FLOOD

[Athanasius]

Food could be tricky, although waste disposal may have been little more than shoveling it over the sides. If all around you is water it's not that hard.

Per Genesis 6:19ff, Noah was to bring "two of all living creatures, male and female... two of every kind of bird" along with their feed, then continuing in Genesis 7:22ff, "...seven pairs of every kind of clean animal, a male and its mate... one pair of every kind of unclean animal... seven pairs of every kind of bird".

The ark as described simply isn't big enough to house (1) all of these animals (we're talking millions of animals on a global account), or (2) their food. (3) Waste disposal isn't just hardened stool, but soft stool, urine, and potentially more. The difficulty isn't just getting this off the ship, which is already a difficult task given the ark is described as enclosed in Genesis 6:14, with the opening below the roof is only 1 cubit high. But also because of the byproducts of that waste -- the smell, gasses, fumes, etc. There is also the impact these would have on the structure of the ark.

A global flood belief has to be taken on faith, or else if science is going to get involved, it quickly becomes a local flood, not every animal, and so on.

We're certainly talking about a lot of water but if it came from the earth then the overall mass wouldn't seem to shift all that much - would it be more than the difference between water vapor as clouds and water liquid on the ground?

The problem is that "if".

Gen 7:11 talks of not only rain but also the fountains of the deep opening, suggesting that water came from the skies and rose up from the ground. Otherwise you'd certainly have to be talking the kind of rain that would make the worst of today's storms look like a picnic.

Gen 8 talks of the waters receding. 4.5bn cubic km of water is a lot of water, but if we take the earth as a sphere with a radius of approximately 6,100km the volume (4/3 pi r³) that turns into 4/3 * 3.14 * 6100³ = approx 950bn cubic km. So that water represents 0.5% of the volume of the earth.

This isn't evidence one way or the other, but the volume of water that sounds staggering on the face of it doesn't seem so large when compared to the volume of the earth, and the claim that some portion of it rose up from the earth and some portion of it receded into the earth.

The problem here, is "where"?

[tango]

People have actually looked at the food and waste disposal requirements of the ark scenario and the logisitics are physically impossible. Creationists of course specualte with all sorts of ideas completely unsupported by the Biblical text - the same people who tell everyone to read the Bible as plainly read.

If the Flood occurred as it happened, it has left no telling trace. The YEC organizations should really just go with divine action, providence and protection, but that would mean that they can't cosplay as scientists anymore. It would also mean the end of the grift and monument building, and we can't have that.

Food certainly raises a question, it's not a trivial undertaking to store enough food to feed that many animals for that length of time. I'm not sure about the logistics of waste disposal being such a big thing when it can just be shoveled over the side.

With the statement in Genesis that essentially says water emerged from the earth to submerge everything and then receded back into the earth it does seem that the YEC approach needs to either lean heavily on "God did it" as an argument (which isn't entirely unreasonable), or figure out what might have prompted that much water to emerge from the earth and then recede after a few months.

[tango]

Food could be tricky, although waste disposal may have been little more than shoveling it over the sides. If all around you is water it's not that hard.

Per Genesis 6:19ff, Noah was to bring "two of all living creatures, male and female... two of every kind of bird" along with their feed, then continuing in Genesis 7:22ff, "...seven pairs of every kind of clean animal, a male and its mate... one pair of every kind of unclean animal... seven pairs of every kind of bird".

The ark as described simply isn't big enough to house (1) all of these animals (we're talking millions of animals on a global account), or (2) their food. (3) Waste disposal isn't just hardened stool, but soft stool, urine, and potentially more. The difficulty isn't just getting this off the ship, which is already a difficult task given the ark is described as enclosed in Genesis 6:14, with the opening below the roof is only 1 cubit high. But also because of the byproducts of that waste -- the smell, gasses, fumes, etc. There is also the impact these would have on the structure of the ark.

A global flood belief has to be taken on faith, or else if science is going to get involved, it quickly becomes a local flood, not every animal, and so on.

There are certainly questions that lack obvious answers relating to the number of animals and food, as you describe.

We're certainly talking about a lot of water but if it came from the earth then the overall mass wouldn't seem to shift all that much - would it be more than the difference between water vapor as clouds and water liquid on the ground?

The problem is that "if".

I'm not sure the "if" is such a problem - if it emerged from the earth as described in Genesis it explains issues of the kind of rainfall that would be required.

Gen 7:11 talks of not only rain but also the fountains of the deep opening, suggesting that water came from the skies and rose up from the ground. Otherwise you'd certainly have to be talking the kind of rain that would make the worst of today's storms look like a picnic.

Gen 8 talks of the waters receding. 4.5bn cubic km of water is a lot of water, but if we take the earth as a sphere with a radius of approximately 6,100km the volume (4/3 pi r³) that turns into 4/3 * 3.14 * 6100³ = approx 950bn cubic km. So that water represents 0.5% of the volume of the earth.

This isn't evidence one way or the other, but the volume of water that sounds staggering on the face of it doesn't seem so large when compared to the volume of the earth, and the claim that some portion of it rose up from the earth and some portion of it receded into the earth.

The problem here, is "where"?

I remember reading an article a while back about some kind of very substantial water reserves found in (I think) the Earth's mantle. I forget the details, it was a fair while ago. When I read it I remember wondering if it was the kind of volume of water that might have been involved in something like a great flood.

Obviously none of this is proof one way or the other, merely a calculation that the quantity of water that would be required, although huge, isn't actually that large compared to the volume of the planet. The question of exactly where it went is a perfectly valid one, my calculation was more about demonstrating that it's not inconceivable that such a volume of water could be reabsorbed by the earth.

[Athanasius]

I think you have articles like https://ssec.si.edu/stemvisions-blog/there-ocean-below-your-feet in mind.

[IMINXTC]

Fully respecting science, which does not see recognizable evidence of the flood, it does not and cannot demonstrate that the narrative is false, though aspects of it are deemed impossible or illogical by human standards.


"And the sun stood still, and the moon stayed, until the people had avenged themselves upon their enemies. Is not this written in the book of Jasher? So the sun stood still in the midst of heaven, and hasted not to go down about a whole day." Joshua 10:13

[Fenris]

What do you think about this theory based on the Bible's own description?

How come space ships haven't hit the dome?

[Fenris]

"And the sun stood still, and the moon stayed, until the people had avenged themselves upon their enemies. Is not this written in the book of Jasher? So the sun stood still in the midst of heaven, and hasted not to go down about a whole day." Joshua 10:13

Great story about this quote-

In 1981, Israeli fighter pilots destroyed Saddam's nuclear reactor in Iraq in a daring raid called "Operation Opera". On their way in, they flew very low to stay under the radar systems of so as not to be attacked or give anyone a warning and time to prepare. Their flight back was flown at a normal altitude and as fast as they could fly to avoid being caught. Since the attack took place at about 630 PM, the sun was setting as the Israeli pilots flew home. Because of their speed, the sun remained on the horizon for the entire flight back. The pilots independently mentioned the above quote.

[tango]

I think you have articles like https://ssec.si.edu/stemvisions-blog/there-ocean-below-your-feet in mind.

I dropped the ball a bit here. An article something like that, although I don't remember if it was that one in particular.

[Sojourner]

A localized, catastrophic deluge wiping out the inhabitants of Southern Mesopotamia could account for the Bible's record of the Flood without conflicting with global paleo-environmental evidence. We should remember that the Flood occurred within 10 generations of Adam, when humanity and "the world" were very limited in scope. A legendary flood, found among diverse peoples around the globe, is a common thread, and compelling evidence that such an event actually occurred. It's logical that the memory of such a world-ending catastrophe, passed from generation to generation, would be ingrained in the human experience despite a singular group gradually splitting into many diverse nations. Variations in the narrative, due to stark differences in cultures, are a reasonable expectation. 

[Reddogs]

A friend of mine posted this.  I thought the people here might find it interesting.  Feel free to move it if there is a better location for it.  I'll admit I contemplated putting it in "Controversial".

Cloudwalker


GRAND CANYON PROVES THE GENESIS FLOOD

Geologists from around the world descend upon the Grand Canyon to see the layers of rocks. Only a few places on earth reveal such a sequence of rock layers, and here is what has been discovered.

1. All of the horizontal layers contain marine fossils such as corals and clams. Marine fossils are found on every continent in the world.

2. There is a layer formation that has been found across the United States called the Coconino Sandstone or “the bathtub ring” in other states it’s also referred to as Cedar Hills Sandstone, Duncan Sandstone, and the Glorietta Sandstone.

3. The Tapeats Sandstone, one of the lowest layers of the Grand Canyon, appears to form a single sandstone body that blankets across North America, extending from California on the west northward to Montana, covering much of North Dakota, and across the Midwest to New England. The same formation in southern Israel is called the Nabatean Sandstone of Petra.

4. The Redwall limestone in the Grand Canyon is grey limestone stained red from the iron oxide in the above layer. This same limestone can be found in much of North America, England, and in the Himalaya Mountains.

During the Genesis Flood, there was catastrophic flooding across the earth. These tidal waves and tsunamis killed marine creatures and poured onto the land. Subsequently, tsunamis laid down more layers of fossils containing sediments.

The Flood continued for months. The Grand Canyon reveals the violent worldwide flood that once was; it is a monument to the Genesis Flood.

Very good, and you can find the same layers through out the world.