Jesus is God The Father

[Jimbo]

I've discussed the Trinity with you before Slug on another forum where I was banned by a mod for being unitarian.  In fact, I think I was banned from three forums for being unitarian.

[agnostic]

So when the disciples began worshipping Jesus, who apparently never claimed to be God, what do you think was going on there? Jews worshipping a man and a man receiving worship from Jews who knew better than to worship a man, or something else?

1 Chronicles 29:20 Then David said to the whole assembly, "Bless the LORD your God." And all the assembly blessed the LORD, the God of their fathers, and bowed their heads and worshiped the LORD and the king.

Isaiah 60:14 The descendants of those who oppressed you shall come bending low to you, and all who despised you shall worship at your feet; they shall call you the City of the LORD, the Zion of the Holy One of Israel.

Revelation 3:9 I will make those of the synagogue of Satan who say that they are Jews and are not, but are lying—I will make them come and worship before your feet, and they will learn that I have loved you.

"Worship" is a choice of the translators. A neutral translation would just be "bow down" or "gave obeisance". The Hebrew and Greek terms are used in other contexts for people bowing down to (human) people as an act of honor. We have plenty of examples where these words 100% do not mean "worship as a deity".

[Athanasius]

1 Chronicles 29:20 Then David said to the whole assembly, "Bless the LORD your God." And all the assembly blessed the LORD, the God of their fathers, and bowed their heads and worshiped the LORD and the king.

Isaiah 60:14 The descendants of those who oppressed you shall come bending low to you, and all who despised you shall worship at your feet; they shall call you the City of the LORD, the Zion of the Holy One of Israel.

Revelation 3:9 I will make those of the synagogue of Satan who say that they are Jews and are not, but are lying—I will make them come and worship before your feet, and they will learn that I have loved you.

"Worship" is a choice of the translators. A neutral translation would just be "bow down" or "gave obeisance". The Hebrew and Greek terms are used in other contexts for people bowing down to (human) people as an act of honor. We have plenty of examples where these words 100% do not mean "worship as a deity".

Are you an ex-JW?

1 Chronicles 29:20 indicates that the assembly worshipped the 'LORD your God' while in the presence of the king of Israel (David or Solomon, your pick), not that the assembly worshipped the 'LORD your God' and also the king of Israel in the same way. The assembly worshipped God and paid homage to the king, perhaps? (Isn't it odd that God would allow His assembly to worship a man?)

This is further made plain in v21 ff with the sacrificing of burnt offerings to the LORD, and alongside the lack of further mention of supposed kingly worship in v22. Besides, we know that David would not have accepted worship rightly belonging to God, nor would he have allowed Solomon to receive such worship, or the assembly to misdirect their worship. It's a surface reading - one example of many poor JW textual proofreadings - that really only works if we ignore everything else about the text.

What we also don't read is an utterance such as the one found in Matthew 14:32 - 33: "And when they climbed into the boat, the wind died down. Then those who were in the boat worshipped him, saying, 'Truly you are the Son of God.'" That is, we don't have the mere worship of Jesus qua prophet (for example), as someone who calmed down strong winds, but worship followed by naming. Of course, you're free to dispute the meaning of 'Son of God' here, but it should be obvious that the appeal to 1 Chronicles 29 is somewhat misguided depending on how the counter-example is meant to be taken.

Anyway, this distinction between different kinds of 'worship' is your point, but it's one that we can simply agree with and ask, 'yes, and?' That 'worship' can mean different things in different contexts doesn't mean that worship in any specific context can't divinely directly or revealing of the divine person worshipped.

So within the context of an example like that found in Matthew 14, why should we view the disciples worship and naming of Jesus as anything other than revealing of Jesus' divinity?

[Athanasius]

RandyPNW said,

True, most Christians don't spend 2 hours thinking about the Trinity--not their thing. Some think it's wiser to go on a missionary trip, or pray. Some are thinkers, and recognize the importance of the Trinity to Christianity. Without it, Jesus can't be God, and as such, he can't then redeem us from sin.

The Trinity doesn't make Jesus God.  Jesus had several opportunities to make the claim but never did.

Cool, cool. So when the disciples began worshipping Jesus, who apparently never claimed to be God, what do you think was going on there? Jews worshipping a man and a man receiving worship from Jews who knew better than to worship a man, or something else?

There are several examples of worship in the bible where it was to show respect and honor.  Worship is simply bowing down to 'someone' showing honor and respect.
The NT word for worship is proskyneō...
____________________________________________________
to kiss the hand to (towards) one, in token of reverence
among the Orientals, esp. the Persians, to fall upon the knees and touch the ground with the forehead as an expression of profound reverence
in the NT by kneeling or prostration to do homage (to one) or make obeisance, whether in order to express respect or to make supplication
used of homage shown to men and beings of superior rank, to the Jewish high priests, to God, to Christ, to heavenly beings, to demons
_______________________________________________________
Lot worshipped the two angels at Sodom.

Genesis 19:1 "And there came two angels to Sodom at even; and Lot sat in the gate of Sodom: and Lot seeing them rose up to meet them; and he bowed himself with his face toward the ground;"

Moses worshipped Shachah his father in law.

Exodus 18:7 "And Moses went out to meet his father in law, and did obeisance, and kissed him; and they asked each other of their welfare; and they came into the tent."

Abigail worshipped David.

1Samuel 25:23 "And when Abigail saw David, she hasted, and lighted off the ass, and fell before David on her face, and bowed herself to the ground."

There are other examples.

Genesis 23:7
Then Abraham rose and bowed down [shachah] before the people of the land, the Hittites.

Genesis 33:3
He himself [Jacob] went on ahead and bowed down [shachah] to the ground seven times as he approached his brother [Esau].

Genesis 42:6
Now Joseph was the governor of the land, the one who sold grain to all its people. So when Joseph’s brothers arrived, they bowed down [shachah] to him with their faces to the ground.

Matthew 18:26
“The servant fell on his knees [proskuneo] before him. ‘Be patient with me,’ he begged, ‘and I will pay back everything.’

I'm short on time so see my reply above. I can reply to these specific examples as you like, but they don't really address the example I provided.

[Jimbo]

The most asked question Unitarians get is, "are you JW?" (or an x JW) Most Unitarians in the world are NOT JW. I've also found in the debates I've had that many Trinitarians don't fully understand the Trinity doctrine, and esp., how the doctrine developed.

The word worship in the New and OT is used in reference to deity's, false gods, angels, and people. 
This is the translation count of the most common OT word for worship.

Worship - 'šāḥâ'

worship (99x), bow (31x), bow down (18x), obeisance (9x), reverence (5x), fall down (3x), themselves (2x), stoop (1x), crouch (1x), miscellaneous (3x).

to bow down, (Qal) to bow down, (Hiphil) to depress (fig), (Hithpael) ,to bow down, prostrate oneself, before superior in homage, before God in worship, before false gods, before angel.

Daniel uses the Aramaic word - sᵊḡiḏ - for worship and the same is true there.  The bottom line is the word is not solely related to worshipping the one true God. People and angels are worshipped and - are they rebuked for it?

sᵊḡiḏ - to prostrate oneself, do homage, worship, to do homage.

I've posted the NT word 'proskuneo' and the same is true there. 

[Athanasius]

The most asked question Unitarians get is, "are you JW?" (or an x JW) Most Unitarians in the world are NOT JW. I've also found in the debates I've had that many Trinitarians don't fully understand the Trinity doctrine, and esp., how the doctrine developed.

I wasn't asking you if you were JW/ex-JW as you had mentioned you were Unitarian. I asked agnostic because 1 Chronicles 29:20 is a common talking point when disputing the divinity of Jesus. If he's ex-some-denomination-that-taught-unitarianism then so be it. Or, maybe agnostic is just fond of the example and is neither ex-JW nor ex-some-denomination-that-taught-unitarianism.

But yes, a lot of people who profess Trinitarianism have a poor grasp of Trinitarian doctrine and its history (Patrick!). The same is true of a lot of people who profess to reject Trinitarianism. This fact is neither here nor there with respect to the doctrine proper and its history.

The word worship in the New and OT is used in reference to deity's, false gods, angels, and people. 
This is the translation count of the most common OT word for worship.

Worship - 'šāḥâ'

worship (99x), bow (31x), bow down (18x), obeisance (9x), reverence (5x), fall down (3x), themselves (2x), stoop (1x), crouch (1x), miscellaneous (3x).

to bow down, (Qal) to bow down, (Hiphil) to depress (fig), (Hithpael) ,to bow down, prostrate oneself, before superior in homage, before God in worship, before false gods, before angel.

Daniel uses the Aramaic word - sᵊḡiḏ - for worship and the same is true there.  The bottom line is the word is not solely related to worshipping the one true God. People and angels are worshipped and - are they rebuked for it?

sᵊḡiḏ - to prostrate oneself, do homage, worship, to do homage.

I've posted the NT word 'proskuneo' and the same is true there.

I'm looking for an explicit comment on my reference to Matthew 14. Given the context, why ought we not understand προσεκύνησαν as indicating divine worship when paired with the naming of Christ as the 'Son of God', especially coming from the disciples of Christ (or, say, the demons and unclean spirits of the Gospel of Mark)?

Pointing out that the word translated as 'worship' can be mean different kinds of acts is just the nature of language. But what's the application in context? Obviously, the context is going to demand a different reading. We could think of Matthew 20:20, where 'προσκυνοῦσα' is in fact translated as 'bowing down', 'kneeling down', etc. So how do you get from the obvious fact that a word can mean different things depending on the context, to the meaning of that word in the context we find it written?

It's curious that you seem to be arguing for the different meanings of 'worship', but then act as if worship means the same kind of worship in every instance it's found. But that's the question I'm asking, isn't it? I'm asking how the nature of worship in X context ought to be understood, and you're pointing out the nature of worship in Y and Z context is different, but not how that applies to X. So why would Jesus accept divinely directed worship, and if not, then what worship do you think the disciples are directing to him? I'd assume you think they're merely bowing down?

[Slug1]

I've discussed the Trinity with you before Slug on another forum where I was banned by a mod for being unitarian.  In fact, I think I was banned from three forums for being unitarian.

Noted.

You also responded with this:

I trust scripture in the original text.  Trinity isn't scripture.  There's no trinitarian formula in the bible.  Anyone who doesn't believe Jesus IS the word of God wouldn't be a Christian.  Do you know the developmental history of the Trinity doctrine?

While this is a response, I cannot find an answer to the MAIN part of my question. I pray you did not ignore the specific question about Jesus. I know, to honestly answer that part of the question, you  must wrestle with your own theology (that has gotten you booted off of other Bible centered forums). And Yes, I said that to help you realize how critical honesty TO Scripture is required, when seeking the truth.

So I am forced to ask again and wait for an "answer." An answer is "yes or no" and then an explanation OF the answer is always welcome. But, without an "answer," discussion is stalled.


The part you failed to address:

If so, do you believe that Jesus "is" the Word of God?

[Jimbo]

I've discussed the Trinity with you before Slug on another forum where I was banned by a mod for being unitarian.  In fact, I think I was banned from three forums for being unitarian.

Noted.

You also responded with this:

I trust scripture in the original text.  Trinity isn't scripture.  There's no trinitarian formula in the bible.  Anyone who doesn't believe Jesus IS the word of God wouldn't be a Christian.  Do you know the developmental history of the Trinity doctrine?

While this is a response, I cannot find an answer to the MAIN part of my question. I pray you did not ignore the specific question about Jesus. I know, to honestly answer that part of the question, you  must wrestle with your own theology (that has gotten you booted off of other Bible centered forums). And Yes, I said that to help you realize how critical honesty TO Scripture is required, when seeking the truth.

So I am forced to ask again and wait for an "answer." An answer is "yes or no" and then an explanation OF the answer is always welcome. But, without an "answer," discussion is stalled.


The part you failed to address:

If so, do you believe that Jesus "is" the Word of God?

First of all, I answer questions the way I want to answer them. Please, don't tell me how to answer your questions. I've already answered it...

I said, "Anyone who doesn't believe Jesus IS the word of God wouldn't be a Christian"

I'm a believer in Jesus' life, miracles, crucifixion, burial, resurrection, and ascension.  That's what saves me.  Trinity neither saves or condemns anybody.  I'm a believer in my Lord and Savior Jesus Christ and believe he represents God the Father.  He's the anointed one who brought God's Word to mankind. That's my answer.  If you want to go to John 1:1-5 go for it.

[Slug1]

I said, "Anyone who doesn't believe Jesus IS the word of God wouldn't be a Christian"

Your response again, doesn't answer the question.

DO YOU, believe that Jesus "is" the Word of God?

[Jimbo]

I said, "Anyone who doesn't believe Jesus IS the word of God wouldn't be a Christian"

Your response again, doesn't answer the question.

DO YOU, believe that Jesus "is" the Word of God?

I answered your question.  I'm sorry if you don't like the answer.

[Jimbo]

You never answered my question Slug. 

"Do you know the developmental history of the Trinity doctrine?"

[Slug1]

You never answered my question Slug. 

"Do you know the developmental history of the Trinity doctrine?"

I answered your question.  I'm sorry if you don't like the answer.

[/size]
I'll standby for your honesty. Because "with it" I can pursue answering you just as openly.

[Jimbo]

You never answered my question Slug. 

"Do you know the developmental history of the Trinity doctrine?"

I answered your question.  I'm sorry if you don't like the answer.

[/size]

I'll standby for your honesty. Because "with it" I can pursue answering you just as openly.

So you're going to turn this into a game? I clearly answered your question.  I just didn't answer it the way you wanted because I don't answer any question the way OTHERS want me to answer them.  Same game here as on the other forum.  Answer the question big guy!  I'm not telling you how to answer.  Just answer it any way you like.  Yes - no - a detailed explanation, a brief explanation, anything.

[Slug1]

So you're going to turn this into a game? I clearly answered your question.  I just didn't answer it the way you wanted because I don't answer any question the way OTHERS want me to answer them.  Same game here as on the other forum.  Answer the question big guy!  I'm not telling you how to answer.  Just answer it any way you like.  Yes - no - a detailed explanation, a brief explanation, anything.

 I can't answer. I first need to know if I'm speaking with a person who believes that Jesus is the Word of God or does not believe that Jesus is the Word of God. Once I "know" what foundation I am viewing... then edification and maturing can happen through a discussion.

[Jimbo]

So you're going to turn this into a game? I clearly answered your question.  I just didn't answer it the way you wanted because I don't answer any question the way OTHERS want me to answer them.  Same game here as on the other forum.  Answer the question big guy!  I'm not telling you how to answer.  Just answer it any way you like.  Yes - no - a detailed explanation, a brief explanation, anything.

 I can't answer. I first need to know if I'm speaking with a person who believes that Jesus is the Word of God or does not believe that Jesus is the Word of God. Once I "know" what foundation I am viewing... then edification and maturing can happen through a discussion.

Are you having trouble understanding what the word ANYONE means?  You are leading this discussion into an immature direction and into a waste of time.

Would you rather I use the words any one?