Jesus is God The Father

[Thomas7]

 1) Jesus is God The Father

2) Jesus vs yhwh

3) jehovah is the devil

4) 2 coming of Jesus Christ

[The Parson]

I'm just trying to see where you are coming from here Thomas7. You need to converse instead of just posting videos.

[David Taylor]

I checked a few vids against youtube.
No text summary, and comments disabled.
So to understand the author’s premise, you either have to watch videos, or wait for him to enter into a dialoged exchange.

Also, the authot’s video section has a bunch of extra videos promoting the flat earth theory, fwiw.

[Athanasius]

No, he's not (equal effort, right?).

[RandyPNW]

The Father is not the Son is not the Spirit. 3 Persons in 1 Substance. Modalism, or Sabellianism, was found to be a heresy in the Early Church. It has reemerged in recent times through the Oneness Pentecostals, and I don't know who else. But it is an improper way to state the Trinity. The Father, the Son, and the Holy Spirit are all the one God. But they are distinct Persons, perfectly capable of communicating to each other.

Only distinct persons communicate with one another. We have examples in the Bible of each Person of the Trinity communicating with another member of the Trinity. For example, we have Jesus praying to his Father in heaven.

[Fenris]

1) Jesus is God The Father

I thought this was settled doctrine as of the year 325? "God is one God, but three coeternal and consubstantial persons".

3) jehovah is the devil

Isn't this Marcionism, which is heresy?

[RandyPNW]

1) Jesus is God The Father

I thought this was settled doctrine as of the year 325? "God is one God, but three coeternal and consubstantial persons".

3) jehovah is the devil

Isn't this Marcionism, which is heresy?

He Fenris! Marcionism is a form of Gnostic Dualism, whereas Christianity is very unique in its formula, "Three Persons and One Divine Substance. It sounds to outsiders like a Split Personality, but when you consider that we're talking about the God of the OT, the omnipotent Deity, we realize that He must descend through gradations to appear in our finite world.

The vehicle He uses to appear in our world as "Himself" is His Word. His Word created a human body and a human soul to express His infinite Divine Personality. So it's more like two dimensions of the same Being than a Split Personality. But across the dimensions the Father, Son, and Spirit do communicate.

Really, it's no different from what God did in the OT, appearing in theophanies, except they were more like temporary appearances than formation into an eternal human being.

[agnostic]

I hope you don't mind if I pick through your reply. Just trying to provide room for something to discuss.

It sounds to outsiders like a Split Personality,

It's not so much that it sounds like "split personality" (though you can find people using that), but that it sounds contradictory. The trinity is conceptually incoherent, which is why discussions about it always end up appealing to "mystery".

The problem of the trinity isn't even exclusive to non-Christians. I have many friends who are lifelong, devout Christians, but a lot of them have confessed in private to me that doctrine of the trinity is confusing, nonsensical, or otherwise difficult to accept. It doesn't help them that it's basically non-existent in the Bible. For something that is theologically required to be a Christian, we'd expect it to be more obvious than just a few verses in the New Testament and a whole lot of reader inference everywhere else.

but when you consider that we're talking about the God of the OT, the omnipotent Deity,

Huge parts of the OT describe God like any other ancient Levantine text describes their deities. There are even two stories where God actually fails to protect Israel from their enemies! Not that he withholds protection (as apologists often try to make the stories say), but legitimately promised to do X and did not succeed because of some external factor. In modern theology this idea is impermissible. In ancient Levantine theology, it would have been unfortunate but believable. The idea of God having sheer, literal "omnipotence" came around later on.

we realize that He must descend through gradations to appear in our finite world.

This is actually a rather "Gnostic" way of describing the supreme deity.

His Word created a human body and a human soul to express His infinite Divine Personality.

Could you clarify what you mean here? I've never heard this phrasing outside to describe the "orthodox" view of incarnation. Saying that he "created a human soul" for himself sounds like Nestorianism. I may be misunderstanding the Athanasian Creed, but it says "For as the reasonable soul and flesh is one man; so God and Man is one Christ", which seems to mean that his "soul" is deity while his body his human.

[RandyPNW]

I hope you don't mind if I pick through your reply. Just trying to provide room for something to discuss.

Don't mind at all.

It's not so much that it sounds like "split personality" (though you can find people using that), but that it sounds contradictory. The trinity is conceptually incoherent, which is why discussions about it always end up appealing to "mystery".

I don't rest my argument on "mystery," although it's certainly a matter transcending the capacity of finite minds to understand fully the Infinite.

The problem of the trinity isn't even exclusive to non-Christians. I have many friends who are lifelong, devout Christians, but a lot of them have confessed in private to me that doctrine of the trinity is confusing, nonsensical, or otherwise difficult to accept. It doesn't help them that it's basically non-existent in the Bible. For something that is theologically required to be a Christian, we'd expect it to be more obvious than just a few verses in the New Testament and a whole lot of reader inference everywhere else.

True, most Christians don't spend 2 hours thinking about the Trinity--not their thing. Some think it's wiser to go on a missionary trip, or pray. Some are thinkers, and recognize the importance of the Trinity to Christianity. Without it, Jesus can't be God, and as such, he can't then redeem us from sin.

Huge parts of the OT describe God like any other ancient Levantine text describes their deities. There are even two stories where God actually fails to protect Israel from their enemies! Not that he withholds protection (as apologists often try to make the stories say), but legitimately promised to do X and did not succeed because of some external factor. In modern theology this idea is impermissible. In ancient Levantine theology, it would have been unfortunate but believable. The idea of God having sheer, literal "omnipotence" came around later on.

Don't agree at all. The language ascribed to Deity recognizes that God is speaking thru anthropomorphisms. God, in other words, acts like a human so that humans can understand Him. Some of Greek philosophy saw Deity as impassible, but the Scriptures portray God as a God of revelation, a God expressing Himself to man through His Word.

we realize that He must descend through gradations to appear in our finite world.

This is actually a rather "Gnostic" way of describing the supreme deity.

I realized that. It's "for lack of an easier way to describe it." I'd hoped you'd understand I'm not expressing Gnosticism, but rather, the matter of transcendence. This is the "gradation" I'm speaking of, going from the Infinite to the finite, and the reverse. An interesting possibel portrayal of this is "Jacob's Ladder," in which angels are seen descending and ascending between heaven and earth.

Jesus used similar terminology here:
John 1.51 He then added, “Very truly I tell you, you will see ‘heaven open, and the angels of God ascending and descending on’ the Son of Man.”

His Word created a human body and a human soul to express His infinite Divine Personality.

Could you clarify what you mean here? I've never heard this phrasing outside to describe the "orthodox" view of incarnation. Saying that he "created a human soul" for himself sounds like Nestorianism. I may be misunderstanding the Athanasian Creed, but it says "For as the reasonable soul and flesh is one man; so God and Man is one Christ", which seems to mean that his "soul" is deity while his body his human.

Actually, Nestorianism was more like that "Split Personality" conception of Christ that I earlier referred to. He tried to put a divine person and a human person together without properly explaining their unity. The heretic Cerinthus, early on, apparently claimed that the "Christ" descended into the man Jesus. This separates the man from his office. The Deity and humanity of Jesus cannot be divided, in orthodoxy.

So what I'm saying is that God has a transcendent omnipotent Personality, and can thus express Himself lower down the chain, in a lower "gradation," in the finite world. To do that His Word must form into the shape of something material and something finite. The human personality of Jesus assumes a finite form, and yet the *idea* expressed is an Infinite one. Jesus, as finite man, is the infinite God. That's what God's Word is expressing here.

[Fenris]

He Fenris! Marcionism is a form of Gnostic Dualism  whereas Christianity is very unique in its formula

Um, that's very nice. But I'm not commenting on Christianity. I'm commenting on the original poster's video "jehovah is the devil", which is Marcionism and not Christianity.

[Jimbo]

RandyPNW said,

True, most Christians don't spend 2 hours thinking about the Trinity--not their thing. Some think it's wiser to go on a missionary trip, or pray. Some are thinkers, and recognize the importance of the Trinity to Christianity. Without it, Jesus can't be God, and as such, he can't then redeem us from sin.

The Trinity doesn't make Jesus God.  Jesus had several opportunities to make the claim but never did.  My question is where in scripture is it found that Jesus had to be God to redeem us from sin?

[Athanasius]

RandyPNW said,

True, most Christians don't spend 2 hours thinking about the Trinity--not their thing. Some think it's wiser to go on a missionary trip, or pray. Some are thinkers, and recognize the importance of the Trinity to Christianity. Without it, Jesus can't be God, and as such, he can't then redeem us from sin.

The Trinity doesn't make Jesus God.  Jesus had several opportunities to make the claim but never did.

Cool, cool. So when the disciples began worshipping Jesus, who apparently never claimed to be God, what do you think was going on there? Jews worshipping a man and a man receiving worship from Jews who knew better than to worship a man, or something else?

[Jimbo]

RandyPNW said,

True, most Christians don't spend 2 hours thinking about the Trinity--not their thing. Some think it's wiser to go on a missionary trip, or pray. Some are thinkers, and recognize the importance of the Trinity to Christianity. Without it, Jesus can't be God, and as such, he can't then redeem us from sin.

The Trinity doesn't make Jesus God.  Jesus had several opportunities to make the claim but never did.

Cool, cool. So when the disciples began worshipping Jesus, who apparently never claimed to be God, what do you think was going on there? Jews worshipping a man and a man receiving worship from Jews who knew better than to worship a man, or something else?

There are several examples of worship in the bible where it was to show respect and honor.  Worship is simply bowing down to 'someone' showing honor and respect.
The NT word for worship is proskyneō...
____________________________________________________
to kiss the hand to (towards) one, in token of reverence
among the Orientals, esp. the Persians, to fall upon the knees and touch the ground with the forehead as an expression of profound reverence
in the NT by kneeling or prostration to do homage (to one) or make obeisance, whether in order to express respect or to make supplication
used of homage shown to men and beings of superior rank, to the Jewish high priests, to God, to Christ, to heavenly beings, to demons
_______________________________________________________
Lot worshipped the two angels at Sodom.

Genesis 19:1 "And there came two angels to Sodom at even; and Lot sat in the gate of Sodom: and Lot seeing them rose up to meet them; and he bowed himself with his face toward the ground;"

Moses worshipped Shachah his father in law.

Exodus 18:7 "And Moses went out to meet his father in law, and did obeisance, and kissed him; and they asked each other of their welfare; and they came into the tent."

Abigail worshipped David.

1Samuel 25:23 "And when Abigail saw David, she hasted, and lighted off the ass, and fell before David on her face, and bowed herself to the ground."

There are other examples.

Genesis 23:7
Then Abraham rose and bowed down [shachah] before the people of the land, the Hittites.

Genesis 33:3
He himself [Jacob] went on ahead and bowed down [shachah] to the ground seven times as he approached his brother [Esau].

Genesis 42:6
Now Joseph was the governor of the land, the one who sold grain to all its people. So when Joseph’s brothers arrived, they bowed down [shachah] to him with their faces to the ground.

Matthew 18:26
“The servant fell on his knees [proskuneo] before him. ‘Be patient with me,’ he begged, ‘and I will pay back everything.’

[Slug1]

The Trinity doesn't make Jesus God.  Jesus had several opportunities to make the claim but never did.  My question is where in scripture is it found that Jesus had to be God to redeem us from sin?

Jimbo, do you trust Scripture? If so, do you believe that Jesus "is" the Word of God?

[Jimbo]

The Trinity doesn't make Jesus God.  Jesus had several opportunities to make the claim but never did.  My question is where in scripture is it found that Jesus had to be God to redeem us from sin?

Jimbo, do you trust Scripture? If so, do you believe that Jesus "is" the Word of God?

I trust scripture in the original text.  Trinity isn't scripture.  There's no trinitarian formula in the bible.  Anyone who doesn't believe Jesus IS the word of God wouldn't be a Christian.  Do you know the developmental history of the Trinity doctrine?