Question for Fenris

[teddyv]

Topical thread for myself. I've been seeing a fair bit of push back from multiple places against PSA. Fairly sure my tradition subscribes to it, but have tried to understand what the arguments against it are.

[Fenris]

Okay, thanks.

10 Yet it pleased the LORD to crush him by disease;

By disease is quite different than the KJV, thus interesting.

The word is "הֶֽחֱלִ֔י ", the root word is "חָלָה", Strong's 2470. Usually translated as sickness or illness.

By the way, the same root word is in 53:3- mistranslated as "acquainted with grief" but reads in Hebrew as "he knew of illness", and in the following verse "he carried our illness", and in the next verse, "he was ill from our sins" (not "for our sins", which is a further mistranslation).

[ProDeo]

The red is the part I take offense as if God the Father poured his wrath (rage, fury) on God the Son during the last 3 hours of Jesus life at the cross. I find it hard to believe there was wrath inside the Godhead.

The verse doesn't say "wrath". Why are people adding words to the bible that aren't there?

Exactly.

[ProDeo]

Yes

I believe scripture teaches penal substitutionary atonement

But with wrath?

Imagine, wrath (rage, fury) inside the Godhead, hard to believe.

Was God more or less punishing Himself also?

For what?

For giving his creatures free will while knowing on beforehand that sin sooner or later would rear its ugly head?

It's that why we read -- the Lamb slain from the foundation of the world -- ?

[RabbiKnife]

Yes

[ProDeo]

Yes

If you believe all of that, then you must believe in (some sort of) Universalism also.

Right?

[Fenris]

I am mildly entertained by the fact that my translation of verse 10 is considered important, maybe even authoritative, but what I have to say about the rest of the chapter is irrelevant.

[Fenris]

Anyway, is the servant identified by name? Yes, many times.

Isaiah 41:8 “But you, Israel, my servant, Jacob, whom I have chosen, you descendants of Abraham my friend..."

Isaiah 44:1 "And now, hearken, Jacob My servant, and Israel whom I have chosen."

Isaiah 44:21 "Remember these, O Jacob; and Israel, for you are My servant; I formed you that you be a servant to Me, Israel, do not forget Me."

Isaiah 45:4 "For the sake of My servant Jacob, and Israel My chosen one"

Isaiah 49:3 "You are My servant, Israel, about whom I will boast."

And Is. 43:10 doesn't name the servant, but look: "You are my witnesses,” declares the LORD, “and my servant whom I have chosen..." My witnesses, plural, and my servant, singular, because the singular term "servant" applies to the nation as a whole.

[RabbiKnife]

Yes

If you believe all of that, then you must believe in (some sort of) Universalism also.

Right?

No.

People are not eternally separated from God to pay for their sins.
People are eternally separated from God because they choose not to be with Him.

[ProDeo]

I am mildly entertained by the fact that my translation of verse 10 is considered important, maybe even authoritative, but what I have to say about the rest of the chapter is irrelevant.

 

Solly for late reply, this whole Christian PSA-WRATH doctrine (based on Isaiah 53) shocked me and still keeps me busy.

I want to ask you if you feel comfortable with the Death Sea scroll of Isaiah 53 translation as found on :

https://www.biblequery.org/Isa53.html

It starts here : Great Isaiah Scroll of Isaiah 53

Maybe you have a link to the contents of Isaiah 53 of your view?

Thanks in advance.

[ProDeo]

Yes

If you believe all of that, then you must believe in (some sort of) Universalism also.

Right?

No.

People are not eternally separated from God to pay for their sins.
People are eternally separated from God because they choose not to be with Him.

True.

But I said - (some sort of) Universalism.

Sorry for not being clear enough.

I believe in PSA, not in PSA-WRATH, God the Father pouring his wrath/rage/fury on God the Son on the cross, as if it was not already bad enough Jesus was made sin who knew no sin -- 2 Cor 5:21 and had to die as the Lamb slain from the foundation of the world -- Rev 13:8

It's a love story, before God the Father and God the Son together created the world -- Col 1:16 the Lamb slain was already decided between Them because by the foreknowledge of God He knew in advance that giving His creatures free will that sooner or later sin would rear its ugly head. And yet He created A&E anyway, knowing in advance they would fall. But...with the Lamb slain in mind, His way to deal with sin once and for all. Can you feel the love?

We also read the cross is about reconciliation -- 2 Cor 5:18-19 for example, where is God's wrath on the cross? Nowhere. More in my next post, another shock, at least for me.

Back to my (some sort of) Universalism remark, if -- after all -- it is true there was wrath/rage/fury inside the Godhead then there is more to it than only a love story -- John 3:16, God the Father was hurting God the Son and hurting Himself. As if God the Father and God the Son took responsibly for the decision to give their creatures free will while knowing in advance that some would sin, like A&E, not all His creatures, most of the holy angels did not participated in the satanic rebellion and kept and are still loyal.

And if it is true that God took responsibly for His decision to give His creatures free will in order that they sincerely and by free will love Him in return then passages like -- John 3:17, 1 Tim 2:4, 2 Peter 3:9 -- get a deeper meaning, in the sense that He wants it and what He wants He will get it without abusing the free will of His creatures.

Does mercy stop at death?

Are there second chances?

Will there be an age of restoration?

The beauty of (some sort of) Universalism is that God gets what He wants.

Will there be creatures not open for correction? Likely.

It's like -
Rev 22:14 Blessed are those who wash their robes, so that they may have the right to the tree of life and that they may enter the city by the gates.
Rev 22:15 Outside are the dogs and sorcerers and the sexually immoral and murderers and idolaters, and everyone who loves and practices falsehood.

Those who don't can't stand the light of the city, preferring to live in sin in outer darkness.

Next, about Isaiah 53 and its different translations, because PSA-WRATH is based on Isaiah 53, the Massoretic text in use today.

[ProDeo]

The different translations of Isaiah 53

Somewhere in the Church history the OT text in use (the Septuagint or LXX) was replaced by the Massoretic text, likely around the time of the KJV of 1611.

Code: [Select]

     Massoretic text in use by us                       |               Septuagint                            |
Isa 53:10 Yet it was the will of the LORD to crush      | 10 The Lord also is pleased to purge him from his   |
him; he has put him to grief; when his soul makes an    | stroke. If ye can give an offering for sin, your    |
offering for guilt, he shall see his offspring; he      | soul shall see a long-lived seed:                   |
shall prolong his days; the will of the LORD shall      |                                                     |
prosper in his hand.                                    |                                                     |


Code: [Select]

Isa 53:11 Out of the anguish of his soul he shall see   | 11 the Lord also is pleased to take away from the   |
and be satisfied; by his knowledge shall the righteous  | travail of his soul, to shew him light, and to form |
one, my servant, make many to be accounted righteous,   | him with understanding; to justify the just one     |
and he shall bear their iniquities.                     | who serves many well; and he shall bear their sins. |

Note the massive difference in verse 10.

Sources of Isaiah 53

Masoretic Text in use by us, created in 1009 AD
Death Sea scroll - more than 1000 years older than the Masoretic Text we use.
Septuagint - more than 1000 years older than the Masoretic Text AND used by the NT authors whenever they quote the OT and as such they understood Isaiah 53.

Study the 3 versions and tell me which one to believe.

--------------------------------------------------------------------------------

And another one, Psalm 22, quoted by Jesus dying on the cross, generally seen as a prophecy of David about Jesus.

More translation trouble I am afraid.

Masoretic Text - Psalm 22:1 My God, my God, why have you forsaken me? Why are you so far from saving me, from the words of my groaning?

Septuagint - Psalm 21: - For the end, concerning the morning aid, a Psalm of David. O God, my God, attend to me: why hast thou forsaken me? the account of my transgressions is far from my salvation.

Vulgate - Psalm 21:1 - Unto the end, for the morning protection, a psalm for David.
Psalm 21:2 - O God my God, look upon me: why hast thou forsaken me? Far from my salvation are the words of my sins

What ?!

Transgressions, sins ? ? ? ? Jesus? Nooooooooooooooooo.

Meaning those translations are not about Jesus but about David after all.

❓❓❓❓

And now I am really confused.

[shepherdsword]

The different translations of Isaiah 53

Somewhere in the Church history the OT text in use (the Septuagint or LXX) was replaced by the Massoretic text, likely around the time of the KJV of 1611.

Code: [Select]

     Massoretic text in use by us                       |               Septuagint                            |
Isa 53:10 Yet it was the will of the LORD to crush      | 10 The Lord also is pleased to purge him from his   |
him; he has put him to grief; when his soul makes an    | stroke. If ye can give an offering for sin, your    |
offering for guilt, he shall see his offspring; he      | soul shall see a long-lived seed:                   |
shall prolong his days; the will of the LORD shall      |                                                     |
prosper in his hand.                                    |                                                     |


Code: [Select]

Isa 53:11 Out of the anguish of his soul he shall see   | 11 the Lord also is pleased to take away from the   |
and be satisfied; by his knowledge shall the righteous  | travail of his soul, to shew him light, and to form |
one, my servant, make many to be accounted righteous,   | him with understanding; to justify the just one     |
and he shall bear their iniquities.                     | who serves many well; and he shall bear their sins. |

Note the massive difference in verse 10.

Sources of Isaiah 53

Masoretic Text in use by us, created in 1009 AD
Death Sea scroll - more than 1000 years older than the Masoretic Text we use.
Septuagint - more than 1000 years older than the Masoretic Text AND used by the NT authors whenever they quote the OT and as such they understood Isaiah 53.

Study the 3 versions and tell me which one to believe.

--------------------------------------------------------------------------------

And another one, Psalm 22, quoted by Jesus dying on the cross, generally seen as a prophecy of David about Jesus.

More translation trouble I am afraid.

Masoretic Text - Psalm 22:1 My God, my God, why have you forsaken me? Why are you so far from saving me, from the words of my groaning?

Septuagint - Psalm 21: - For the end, concerning the morning aid, a Psalm of David. O God, my God, attend to me: why hast thou forsaken me? the account of my transgressions is far from my salvation.

Vulgate - Psalm 21:1 - Unto the end, for the morning protection, a psalm for David.
Psalm 21:2 - O God my God, look upon me: why hast thou forsaken me? Far from my salvation are the words of my sins

What ?!

Transgressions, sins ? ? ? ? Jesus? Nooooooooooooooooo.

Meaning those translations are not about Jesus but about David after all.

❓❓❓❓

And now I am really confused.

Where is the dead sea scroll translation? I want to take a look at that.

[ProDeo]

Links -

https://www.biblequery.org/Isa53.html -- Death see scroll

https://rebel7775.wixsite.com/rebel/mrl -- Septuagint

[Fenris]

I want to ask you if you feel comfortable with the Death Sea scroll of Isaiah 53 translation as found on :

The fact that even simple Hebrew words are mistranslated is not encouraging.