Question for Fenris

[ProDeo]

Hi Fenris, question / request, it's about Isaiah 53 again 

I wonder if the english translation of Isaiah 53 of the Hebrew Bible is correct?

And if not, would you be so kind to post the Jewish version?

|               Hebrew Bible                            |
|                                                       |
| 1 Who would have believed our report? And to whom     |
| hath the arm of the LORD been revealed?               |
|                                                       |
| 2 For he shot up right forth as a sapling, and as     |
| a root out of a dry ground; he had no form nor        |
| comeliness, that we should look upon him, nor         |
| beauty that we should delight in him.                 |
|                                                       |
| 3 He was despised, and forsaken of men, a man of      |
| pains, and acquainted with disease, and as one        |
| from whom men hide their face: he was despised,       |
| and we esteemed him not.                              |
|                                                       |
| 4 Surely our diseases he did bear, and our pains      |
| he carried; whereas we did esteem him stricken,       |
| smitten of God, and afflicted.                        |
|                                                       |
| 5 But he was wounded because of our  transgressions,  |
| he was crushed because of our iniquities: the         |
| chastisement of our welfare was upon him, and with    |
| his stripes we were healed.                           |
|                                                       |
|                                                       |
| 6 All we like sheep did go astray, we turned every one|
| to his own way; and the LORD hath made to light on him|
| the iniquity of us all.                               |
|                                                       |
| 7 He was oppressed, though he humbled himself and     |
| opened not his mouth; as a lamb that is led to the    |
| slaughter, and as a sheep that before her shearers is |
| dumb; yea, he opened not his mouth.                   |
|                                                       |
| 8 By oppression and judgment he was taken away, and   |
| with his generation who did reason? for he was cut off|
| out of the land of the living, for the transgression  |
| of my people to whom the stroke was due.              |
|                                                       |
| 9 And they made his grave with the wicked, and with   |
| the rich his tomb; although he had done no violence,  |
| neither was any deceit in his mouth.                  |
|                                                       |
| 10 Yet it pleased the LORD to crush him by disease;   |
| to see if his soul would offer itself in restitution, |
| that he might see his seed, prolong his days, and     |
| that the purpose of the LORD might prosper by his     |
| hand:                                                 |
|                                                       |
| 11 Of the travail of his soul he shall see to the     |
| full, even My servant, who by his knowledge did       |
| justify the Righteous One to the many, and their      |
| iniquities he did bear.                               |
|                                                       |
| 12 Therefore will I divide him a portion among the    |
| great, and he shall divide the spoil with the mighty; |
| because he bared his soul unto death, and was         |
| numbered with the transgressors; yet he bore the sin  |
| of many, and made intercession for the transgressors. |

[Fenris]

Ooo a question just for me!

Before I get started, if you don't mind, I want to know what the source of this particular translation is.

[Fenris]

So before we get started, I think it's important to talk about context. Christians act as though the 53rd chapter of Isaiah is a freestanding body of work. Isaiah 1-52 and 54-66 don't exist for the purposes of discussing chapter 53. And it is, forgive me, disingenuous. Chapters weren't even invented until the middle ages. If you go to the museum in Jerusalem that houses the Dead Sea Scrolls as I have, you can see a copy of the Isaiah scroll. And the whole book is one long scroll. There's no chapters. Therefore the words of that chapter can't be separated from the surrounding chapters or from the book as a whole.

[ProDeo]

So before we get started, I think it's important to talk about context. Christians act as though the 53rd chapter of Isaiah is a freestanding body of work. Isaiah 1-52 and 54-66 don't exist for the purposes of discussing chapter 53. And it is, forgive me, disingenuous. Chapters weren't even invented until the middle ages. If you go to the museum in Jerusalem that houses the Dead Sea Scrolls as I have, you can see a copy of the Isaiah scroll. And the whole book is one long scroll. There's no chapters. Therefore the words of that chapter can't be separated from the surrounding chapters or from the book as a whole.

I know, I know and I know 

I got the translation from : https://mechon-mamre.org/p/pt/pt1053.htm

And this time it isn't about who, Israel or the Messiah, but about an IMO false Christian teaching. Mainly it's about verse 10.

| 10 Yet it pleased the LORD to crush him by disease;   |
| to see if his soul would offer itself in restitution, |
| that he might see his seed, prolong his days, and     |
| that the purpose of the LORD might prosper by his     |
| hand:                                                 |

And I wonder about the Jewish translation.

[Fenris]

OK So now that we have general context, let's be a little more specific. Chapter 53 discusses the "suffering servant of God". Who is this mysterious entity?

Do any other books in the bible discuss God's servant?

Interestingly enough, yes. Jeremiah uses the term. Let's have a look:

Jeremah 30, let's start at verse 4:

 These are the words the Lord spoke concerning Israel and Judah:  “This is what the Lord says:

“‘Cries of fear are heard—
    terror, not peace.
Ask and see:
    Can a man bear children?
Then why do I see every strong man
    with his hands on his stomach like a woman in labor,
    every face turned deathly pale?
 How awful that day will be!
    No other will be like it.
It will be a time of trouble for Jacob,
    but he will be saved out of it.

 “‘In that day,’ declares the Lord Almighty,
    ‘I will break the yoke off their necks
and will tear off their bonds;
    no longer will foreigners enslave them.
 Instead, they will serve the Lord their God
    and David their king,
    whom I will raise up for them.

“‘So do not be afraid, Jacob my servant;
    do not be dismayed, Israel,’
declares the Lord.
‘I will surely save you out of a distant place,
    your descendants from the land of their exile.
Jacob will again have peace and security,
    and no one will make him afraid.
 I am with you and will save you,’
    declares the Lord.
‘Though I completely destroy all the nations
    among which I scatter you,
    I will not completely destroy you.
I will discipline you but only in due measure;
    I will not let you go entirely unpunished.’


So here we have God, through the prophet Jeremiah, describing the entire nation of Israel using the singular term as God's servant.

We find the same thing In Jeremiah, chapter 46, verses 27 and 28-

“Do not be afraid, Jacob my servant;
    do not be dismayed, Israel.
I will surely save you out of a distant place,
    your descendants from the land of their exile.
Jacob will again have peace and security,
    and no one will make him afraid.
 Do not be afraid, Jacob my servant,
    for I am with you,” declares the Lord.
“Though I completely destroy all the nations
    among which I scatter you,
    I will not completely destroy you.
I will discipline you but only in due measure;
    I will not let you go entirely unpunished.”

So in the book of Jeremiah, God refers to national Israel as God's servant, singular.

[Fenris]

I got the translation from : https://mechon-mamre.org/p/pt/pt1053.htm

That's basically just the KJV with an attempt to correct the worst errors in translation.

And this time it isn't about who, Israel or the Messiah, but about an IMO false Christian teaching. Mainly it's about verse 10.

Too late! I'm already going! 

[Fenris]

| 10 Yet it pleased the LORD to crush him by disease;   |
| to see if his soul would offer itself in restitution, |
| that he might see his seed, prolong his days, and     |
| that the purpose of the LORD might prosper by his     |
| hand:                                                 |

And I wonder about the Jewish translation.

This is not a bad translation. But I would still add context. God is "crushing" the servant in order to bring the servant to repent i.e. "to see if his soul would offer restitution." Then he would see descendants, have long life, and carry out God's purpose in this world.

[Fenris]

What is the "false Christian teaching" in question? Always curious about such things.

[ProDeo]

I got the translation from : https://mechon-mamre.org/p/pt/pt1053.htm

That's basically just the KJV with an attempt to correct the worst errors in translation.

And this time it isn't about who, Israel or the Messiah, but about an IMO false Christian teaching. Mainly it's about verse 10.

Too late! I'm already going! 

I won't bite this time 

[ProDeo]

| 10 Yet it pleased the LORD to crush him by disease;   |
| to see if his soul would offer itself in restitution, |
| that he might see his seed, prolong his days, and     |
| that the purpose of the LORD might prosper by his     |
| hand:                                                 |

And I wonder about the Jewish translation.

This is not a bad translation. But I would still add context. God is "crushing" the servant in order to bring the servant to repent i.e. "to see if his soul would offer restitution." Then he would see descendants, have long life, and carry out God's purpose in this world.

Okay, thanks.

10 Yet it pleased the LORD to crush him by disease;

By disease is quite different than the KJV, thus interesting.

[ProDeo]

What is the "false Christian teaching" in question? Always curious about such things.

Take a deep breath first...

There is a Christian doctrine originated during the Reformation called PSA (Penal Substitution Atonement)

which declares that Christ, voluntarily submitting to God the Father's plan, was punished (penalized) in the place of (substitution) sinners, thus satisfying the demands of justice and propitiation, so God can justly forgive sins making us at one with God (atonement)

The penal substitution theory teaches that Jesus suffered the penalty due, according to God the Father's wrath for humanity's sins.

It's all based on Isaiah 53, mainly verse 10 - Isa 53:10 - Yet it pleased the LORD to crush him (on the cross)

The red is the part I take offense as if God the Father poured his wrath (rage, fury) on God the Son during the last 3 hours of Jesus life at the cross. I find it hard to believe there was wrath inside the Godhead.

[RabbiKnife]

If you don’t believe God has wrath toward sin, then please don’t read God’s history during Moses’ leadership period or any of the book of Revelation