Zechariah 12

[Fenris]

I'm not an "end timesy" kind of guy. Still, sometimes things happen in the world that do seem to fit the literal text of some ancient prophecy. The goings on in Israel right now in some way fit the text of Zechariah 12. To wit-

A prophecy: The word of the Lord concerning Israel.

The Lord, who stretches out the heavens, who lays the foundation of the earth, and who forms the human spirit within a person, declares:  “I am going to make Jerusalem a cup that sends all the surrounding peoples reeling. Judah will be besieged as well as Jerusalem.  On that day, when all the nations of the earth are gathered against her, I will make Jerusalem an immovable rock for all the nations. All who try to move it will injure themselves.  On that day I will strike every horse with panic and its rider with madness,” declares the Lord. “I will keep a watchful eye over Judah, but I will blind all the horses of the nations.  Then the clans of Judah will say in their hearts, ‘The people of Jerusalem are strong, because the Lord Almighty is their God.’

 “On that day I will make the clans of Judah like a firepot in a woodpile, like a flaming torch among sheaves. They will consume all the surrounding peoples right and left, but Jerusalem will remain intact in her place.

 “The Lord will save the dwellings of Judah first, so that the honor of the house of David and of Jerusalem’s inhabitants may not be greater than that of Judah.  On that day the Lord will shield those who live in Jerusalem, so that the feeblest among them will be like David, and the house of David will be like God, like the angel of the Lord going before them.

Some observations.

"On that day, when all the nations of the earth are gathered against her"

The UN and most of the nations in the world are standing against Israel right now. This began right after the Hamas pogrom against Israel on 10/7, even before Israel took the war to Gaza. And all those nations are now insisting that Israel stop, right now, even as the war seems near won. Or perhaps because the war seems near won.

Jerusalem will remain intact in her place.

The city of Jerusalem has been the safest place in Israel during this war. The south of the country has been evacuated because of the war with Hamas and the north of the country has been evacuated because of ongoing Hizbullah attacks. Tel Aviv came under frequent missile fire from Gaza. But Jerusalem alone has been almost incident free.

the feeblest among them will be like David, and the house of David will be like God, like the angel of the Lord going before them

I can't think of a better description of the IDF.

The IDF has been operating in a dense, fortified urban zone, with Hamas combatants hiding amongst civilians and fighting while not in unform. The IDF is taking great pains to safeguard civilian lives. In spite of this, they have killed at least 10,000 Hamas fighters and permanently incapacitated 10,000 more. 75% of Hamas fighting brigades are out of action. The cost to Israel has been 224 IDF soldiers killed in combat. Don't get me wrong, every single IDF death is a tragedy. But that kill ratio can only be explained by God's protection of those brave soldiers.   

I have more understanding of the rest of the chapter, but I'm going to pause here for now.

So is my understanding of current events.

[ProDeo]

Two chapters further -

1 Behold, a day is coming for the LORD, when the spoil taken from you will be divided in your midst. 2 For I will gather all the nations against Jerusalem to battle, and the city shall be taken and the houses plundered and the women raped. Half of the city shall go out into exile, but the rest of the people shall not be cut off from the city. 3 Then the LORD will go out and fight against those nations as when he fights on a day of battle. 4 On that day his feet shall stand on the Mount of Olives that lies before Jerusalem on the east, and the Mount of Olives shall be split in two from east to west by a very wide valley, so that one half of the Mount shall move northward, and the other half southward. 5 And you shall flee to the valley of my mountains, for the valley of the mountains shall reach to Azal. And you shall flee as you fled from the earthquake in the days of Uzziah king of Judah. Then the LORD my God will come, and all the holy ones with him.

9 And the LORD will be king over all the earth. On that day the LORD will be one and his name one.

1. It's a not fulfilled prophecy since the Mount of Olives is still whole.

2. all nations if taken literal means USA too.

3. Of course Christians see many parallels with the NT 

[Fenris]

Two chapters further -

Uhh we're talking about chapter 12.

[ProDeo]

When it's about chapter 12 my guess would be the miraculous wars of 1948, 1956, 1967 and 1973.

[davy]

At Zechariah 12:10-14, it is for after... the battle on the "day of the Lord", i.e., Armageddon when the nations of Ezek.38 come up against Jerusalem. And then those Jews of Romans 11 which Apostle Paul said God had blinded, will have that spiritual blindness removed, and they shall see Jesus Christ as He is, and will mourn for Him.

That nation list of Ezekiel 38 does not have any... Christian nation on it. So scratch ideas from Christ's enemies that try to claim the U.S. or any Christian nation will be part of that. Instead, Ezekiel 38 points to the nations of Russia, Persia (Iran, Iraq), Gomer (old Soviet satellite countries), Libya, and Togarmah (old Cappodicia, now the area of Turkey).

The Communist leaders of Russia I believe represent Jacob's unbelieving brother Esau who profaned his birthright from God by trading it for a bowl of beans. The prophecy in Genesis of the blessing given Esau by his father Isaac was that his place would be 'far away' from those things that were given to his brother Jacob (KJV has a scribe error on that Scripture). And thus Russia fits the bill, plus... it is obvious the 'radical' Islamic nations are being supported by Russia, so the "chief" prince of Meshech of Ezek.38 strongly points to modern-day Russia.

Esau married into both the families of the Canaanites, and the family of Ishmael (Arabs). Esau is obviously jealous of Jacob for having lost the Birthright. And Ishmael, Abraham's firstborn son (but not of Sarah per God's Promise), Ishmael too is jealous of Jacob having received God's Birthright.

And many of the leftover Canaanites became bondservants to Israel, and they also may have a play against and 'within' Israel in the last days. Daniel 11 about the "vile person" for the end, which I believe is the final Antichrist at the end, that Chapter says he will come to power with "a small people". I believe that "small people" represents false leaders of Israel at the end of this world which will push that "vile person" to be king-Messiah, and trick the majority of Jews in Jerusalem at the end into believing that Messiah has come.

[Fenris]

At Zechariah 12:10-14, it is for after... the battle on the "day of the Lord", i.e., Armageddon when the nations of Ezek.38 come up against Jerusalem.

This is possible.

That nation list of Ezekiel 38 does not have any... Christian nation on it. So scratch ideas from Christ's enemies that try to claim the U.S. or any Christian nation will be part of that. Instead, Ezekiel 38 points to the nations of Russia, Persia (Iran, Iraq), Gomer (old Soviet satellite countries), Libya, and Togarmah (old Cappodicia, now the area of Turkey).

I don't think there's any definitive definition as to who Gog and Magog are.  If you're trying to tie it into Zechariah 12, it doesn't make such a distinction.

The Communist leaders of Russia I believe represent Jacob's unbelieving brother Esau who profaned his birthright from God by trading it for a bowl of beans. The prophecy in Genesis of the blessing given Esau by his father Isaac was that his place would be 'far away' from those things that were given to his brother Jacob (KJV has a scribe error on that Scripture). And thus Russia fits the bill, plus... it is obvious the 'radical' Islamic nations are being supported by Russia, so the "chief" prince of Meshech of Ezek.38 strongly points to modern-day Russia.

Esau married into both the families of the Canaanites, and the family of Ishmael (Arabs). Esau is obviously jealous of Jacob for having lost the Birthright. And Ishmael, Abraham's firstborn son (but not of Sarah per God's Promise), Ishmael too is jealous of Jacob having received God's Birthright.

Esau can't be Russia and the Arab nations.

Point of interest, the Rabbis made Rome, and by extension western civ, a "type" for Esau.

I believe that "small people" represents false leaders of Israel at the end of this world which will push that "vile person" to be king-Messiah, and trick the majority of Jews in Jerusalem at the end into believing that Messiah has come.

I don't know why some Christians treat Jews as if they have no agency, and just believe what leaders tell us. It seems plain to me that people who make such claims don't actually know any Jews, because believe me, we are a very argumentative people who seldom follow leaders until it's plain that they're correct. Poor Moses. 

[davy]

I don't see how anyone could miss the following Zech.12 connection with the future battle of Armageddon on the last day of this world, which is what the invading armies out of the northern quarters upon Israel of Ezekiel 38 is about.

Zech 12:9
9 And it shall come to pass in that day, that I will seek to destroy all the nations that come against Jerusalem.
KJV

Nor does it make sense with anyone claiming Russia has no connection to the nations list of Ezekiel 38 which points to Islamic nations coming up against Israel that have been supported by Russia.

Esau represented by Russia is more viable an argument than Rome. I see Jewish hatred of Rome a lot on various forums.

As for the Zech.12:10-14 verses, the subject there is about the Jew's mourning for Christ Jesus when He appears. That is pointing to unbelieving Jews, not believers on Jesus of Nazareth as The Christ...

Zech 12:10
10 And I will pour upon the house of David, and upon the inhabitants of Jerusalem, the spirit of grace and of supplications: and they shall look upon me whom they have pierced, and they shall mourn for him, as one mourneth for his only son, and shall be in bitterness for him, as one that is in bitterness for his firstborn.
KJV

In Luke 23, Lord Jesus on His way to be crucified, said the following to the Jewish women who wept for Him...

Luke 23:27-30
27 And there followed Him a great company of people, and of women, which also bewailed and lamented Him.

28 But Jesus turning unto them said, "Daughters of Jerusalem, weep not for Me, but weep for yourselves, and for your children.

29 For, behold, the days are coming, in the which they shall say, 'Blessed are the barren, and the wombs that never bare, and the paps which never gave suck.'

30 Then shall they begin to say to the mountains, 'Fall on us'; and to the hills, 'Cover us.' "
KJV

That is about the deceived Jews in Jerusalem for the end that have rejected Jesus of Nazareth as The Christ. And when Jesus appears in Jerusalem on the day of His future coming, and they see Him, they will be in shame, and that's why they will say for the mountains to, "Fall on us", and to the hills, to "Cover us." That's a direct link to that Zechariah 12:10-14 Scripture. So I don't have to personally... know, or contact a bunch of Jewish folks to see if that Scripture is correct or not. I know it is correct and means what it says as written.

It is more likely that many Jews, mainly unbelieving Jews, are not aware of Apostle Paul's teaching in Romans 11 about them, that God has placed "the spirit of slumber" upon them blinding them spiritually away from The Gospel, and that blindness won't be removed from the majority of the unbelieving Jews until the fullness of the Gentiles comes in.

Rom 11:7-11
7 What then? Israel hath not obtained that which he seeketh for; but the election hath obtained it, and the rest were blinded
8 (According as it is written, God hath given them the spirit of slumber, eyes that they should not see, and ears that they should not hear;) unto this day.
9 And David saith, 'Let their table be made a snare, and a trap, and a stumbling block, and a recompence unto them:
10 Let their eyes be darkened, that they may not see, and bow down their back alway.'
11 I say then, Have they stumbled that they should fall? God forbid: but rather through their fall salvation is come unto the Gentiles, for to provoke them to jealousy.
KJV

Rom 11:25-29
25 For I would not, brethren, that ye should be ignorant of this mystery, lest ye should be wise in your own conceits; that blindness in part is happened to Israel, until the fulness of the Gentiles be come in.
26 And so all Israel shall be saved: as it is written, 'There shall come out of Sion the Deliverer, and shall turn away ungodliness from Jacob:
27 For this is my covenant unto them, when I shall take away their sins.'
28 As concerning the gospel, they are enemies for your sakes: but as touching the election, they are beloved for the fathers' sakes.
29 For the gifts and calling of God are without repentance.
KJV

[Fenris]

I don't see how anyone could miss the following Zech.12 connection with the future battle of Armageddon on the last day of this world, which is what the invading armies out of the northern quarters upon Israel of Ezekiel 38 is about.

And yet Zechariah 12 mentions the world turning against Israel, and Ezekiel 38 talks about Gog and Magog. So perhaps they are separate and distinct events? It is certainly a biblical concept that negative prophecies can be prevented via repentance. See Jonah, for example.

The Talmud (redacted between the 1st and 5th century) tentatively identifies Magog as "Gramamiah". Medieval commentator Rashi (1040-1105) claims that this refers to Germany. So perhaps this event has already occurred?

Nor does it make sense with anyone claiming Russia has no connection to the nations list of Ezekiel 38 which points to Islamic nations coming up against Israel that have been supported by Russia.

The truth is that nobody knows.

Esau represented by Russia is more viable an argument than Rome.

Shrug.

I see Jewish hatred of Rome a lot on various forums.

Most Jews don't hate anybody. If you knew any in person you would know that.

As for the Zech.12:10-14 verses, the subject there is about the Jew's mourning for Christ Jesus when He appears. That is pointing to unbelieving Jews, not believers on Jesus of Nazareth as The Christ...

The subject is Jews mourning those who have been killed.  An event that is currently occuring.

and they shall look upon me whom they have pierced, and they shall mourn for him

"They shall look upon me and mourn for him"? This is terrible grammar because it's a bad translation. The Hebrew reads "They shall look to me because of those who have been stabbed, and mourn as one mourns over an only son". Again, this is happening in Israel right now as murdered hostages have been returned. Everyone in the country has mourned over the Bibas kids, Ariel and Kfir, aged 4 years old and 9 months old, as if they were their own children. As a result, Jews who were long secular (although it really means something different in Israel) have suddenly become religious, keeping the Sabbath and eating Kosher and praying daily.

That is about the deceived Jews

As I said, Jews are not "decieved". We're free thinkers who are perfectly capable of judging evidence and making up our own minds.

that have rejected Jesus of Nazareth as The Christ.

It's plain that he did not fill the messianic prophecies as written. If you believe that they will be fulfilled in a second coming, all the power to you. I don't see anything wrong with holding God to His promises, so we're still waiting.

And when Jesus appears in Jerusalem on the day of His future coming, and they see Him, they will be in shame,

Or maybe you'll be ashamed, who knows?
Isaiah 54:
“Do not be afraid; you will not be put to shame.
    Do not fear disgrace; you will not be humiliated.
You will forget the shame of your youth
    and remember no more the reproach of your widowhood.
 For your Maker is your husband—
    the Lord Almighty is his name—
the Holy One of Israel is your Redeemer;
    he is called the God of all the earth.
 The Lord will call you back
    as if you were a wife deserted and distressed in spirit—
a wife who married young,
    only to be rejected,” says your God.
“For a brief moment I abandoned you,
    but with deep compassion I will bring you back.
In a surge of anger
    I hid my face from you for a moment,
but with everlasting kindness
    I will have compassion on you,”
    says the Lord your Redeemer."

So I don't have to personally... know, or contact a bunch of Jewish folks to see if that Scripture is correct or not. I know it is correct and means what it says as written.

And I'm reading it in the original Klingon, err, Hebrew, and I'm saying the same thing. It's correct as written.

It is more likely that many Jews, mainly unbelieving Jews, are not aware of Apostle Paul's teaching in Romans 11 about them, that God has placed "the spirit of slumber" upon them blinding them spiritually away from The Gospel, and that blindness won't be removed from the majority of the unbelieving Jews until the fullness of the Gentiles comes in.

Again if it pleases you to believe this, that's fine. But such beliefs hold no power over me.