Does anybody seriously believe the Pascal's Wager argument?

[Fenris]

Fenris, if I'm correct Jews don't believe that Jesus was the Messiah and therefore don't believe Jesus was God,

Those are actually two separate topics.

1) We don't believe that Jesus was the Messiah, as messianic prophesies are unfulfilled.

2)There is nothing in the bible that leads Jews to believe that the messiah will be anything other than a man. The whole "Messiah is god" is not a Jewish concept.

and don't accept the New Testament as being inspired by God.

Correct.

As I'm sure you know Christians believe that Jesus was the Messiah and Jesus was and is God. So coming from the perspective that Jesus was and is God it follows that Jesus has the right to change the rules laid down by God, because they were his rules to change.

But there's nothing in the my bible that leads me to believe that God's laws would ever be changed. What about "eternal statute, throughout your generations, in any place that you live" sounds like anything other than permanent? If God meant the laws to be temporary, why didn't He say that? The opposite, see Deuteronomy 4 (one of my favorite chapters, by the way) begins with "Hear now, O Israel, the statutes and ordinances I am teaching you to follow, so that you may live and may enter and take possession of the land that the LORD, the God of your fathers, is giving you." It continues "Do not add to what I command you and do not subtract from it, but keep the commands of the LORD your God that I give you." I mean, that's it. What other words are even necessary?

So when God laid down rules for the Jews they took effect from the point they were given until such time they were changed or revoked. As the good Rabbi said, we believe that Jesus fulfilled the law - he had every right to change the rules.

There's no hint in the bible that the laws were something that could be "fulfilled". They are something that we are required to do. And it makes no sense that any one person could "fulfill" the laws, because the entire set of laws don't even apply to any one individual. Some are only for priests, or non priests, or kings, or farmers, or business owners, or men, or women, and on and on....

Furthermore if you believe the divine inspiration of the New Testament then the message given by God through Paul is every bit as valid as the message given by God through Moses.

Paul is certainly an interesting character, but a lot of musings in his books are clearly his and not divinely ordained. How many times does the bible says "And God said to Moses"? Dozens? Hundreds? How many times does Paul write "And God said to me"?

[tango]

We believe the law was fulfilled

You don’t

It is a question of faith

It's not a question of faith. I have faith too. It's a question of whether one believes that the NT is holy writ, or not.

If Jesus is God then Jesus gets to rewrite the rules.
If Jesus is not God then nothing Jesus said makes any difference to the rules.

I think that's the key difference between our stances here.

[DavidGYoung]

Without wishing to create a new thread on the topic, I have never seen a theologian publishing in any peer-reviewed journal who has said 'Jesus is God' without adding any caveats.

[RabbiKnife]

Without wishing to create a new thread on the topic, I have never seen a theologian publishing in any peer-reviewed journal who has said 'Jesus is God' without adding any caveats.

That would be a fairly short article…

[tango]

Without wishing to create a new thread on the topic, I have never seen a theologian publishing in any peer-reviewed journal who has said 'Jesus is God' without adding any caveats.

"In the beginning was the Word and the Word was with God and the Word was God".

[DavidGYoung]

"Substitute bus service runs for all or part of timetable."

[RabbiKnife]

"Substitute bus service runs for all or part of timetable."

I guess I can’t accept your premise as it is not self evident

Isn’t the entire idea of a peer reviewed article to provide explanations and details related to one’s thesis? 

[Fenris]

If Jesus is God then Jesus gets to rewrite the rules.
If Jesus is not God then nothing Jesus said makes any difference to the rules.

I think that's the key difference between our stances here.

No.

God can't rewrite the rules either. That's the difference between our stances here.

[ProDeo]

Without wishing to create a new thread on the topic, I have never seen a theologian publishing in any peer-reviewed journal who has said 'Jesus is God' without adding any caveats.

15 He is the image of the invisible God, the firstborn of all creation. 16 For by him all things were created, in heaven and on earth, visible and invisible, whether thrones or dominions or rulers or authorities—all things were created through him and for him. 17 And he is before all things, and in him all things hold together. 18 And he is the head of the body, the church. He is the beginning, the firstborn from the dead, that in everything he might be preeminent. 19 For in him all the fullness of God was pleased to dwell, 20 and through him to reconcile to himself all things, whether on earth or in heaven, making peace by the blood of his cross.

So beautiful.....

[ProDeo]

I think you still have a wrong perspective of Christianity. Based on what you have said several times earlier, freely translated as, the fall of man in God's garden was a sort of blessing or something close, Christians believe what Scripture states, it was a curse [3:17] with big consequences.

God created mankind with the intention to live with Him in the Garden forever, no death, sickness etc. One sin changed all that, we were kicked out that heavenly place away from the presence of God and here we are, live a little while, suffer and then die. One sin.

Ask yourself the question, why did God not forgive A&E, we both believe God is merciful. Why this drastic measure and harsh punishment because of one sin?

Who says that God didn't forgive them? God could have killed them outright for their disobedience.. Instead they lived long lives.

What I meant, why not let A&E live in the garden, I am not send to an even lower part of hell each time I sin.

Further, perhaps the introduction of the "knowledge of good and evil" was a benefit, as it gave our lives meaning.

How do you know the life of A&E had no meaning?

God created A&E in His image, has His image no meaning?

And it's obvious from the text it that God did not want A&E to fall from grace and experience evil.

More in the next post.

[ProDeo]

While Elijah never died and went straight into heaven God even send Elijah back from heaven to the womb of a woman for the second time to announce the coming of Jesus. John the Baptist (Elijah) knew Jesus from heaven and knew Jesus mission

John himself denies that he is Elijah.

John 1: They asked him, “Then who are you? Are you Elijah?”

He said, “I am not.”

You got me there well, almost.

Matt 11:11 - Truly, I say to you, among those born of women there has arisen no one greater than John the Baptist. Yet the one who is least in the kingdom of heaven is greater than he. 12  From the days of John the Baptist until now the kingdom of heaven has suffered violence,  and the violent take it by force. 13  For all the Prophets and the Law prophesied until John, 14 and if you are willing to accept it, he is Elijah who is to come. 15  He who has ears to hear,  let him hear.

I consider Jesus word as final arbiter.

It's quite well possible John the Baptist did not about himself. We are dealing here with an IMHO unique situation of reincarnation as prophesied by Maleáchi.

[ProDeo]

Psalm 53
1 The fool says in his heart, “There is no God.”
They are corrupt, doing abominable iniquity;
there is none who does good.
2 God looks down from heaven
on the children of man
to see if there are any who understand,
who seek after God.
3 They have all fallen away;
together they have become corrupt;
there is none who does good,
not even one.

Have I denied God's existence? I have not.

The key point is verse 3.

3 They have all fallen away;
together they have become corrupt;
there is none who does good,
not even one.

Unless you think you are excluded.

It's a main pillar in Christianity.

[Fenris]

How do you know the life of A&E had no meaning?

God created A&E in His image, has His image no meaning?

Our internal struggle and our choices give our lives meaning.

[Fenris]

I consider Jesus word as final arbiter.

I don't. And futher-

We are dealing here with an IMHO unique situation of reincarnation as prophesied by Maleáchi.

It can't be reincarnation. Elijah did not die. He ascended to heaven while still alive.

[Fenris]

The key point is verse 3.

3 They have all fallen away;
together they have become corrupt;
there is none who does good,
not even one.

Unless you think you are excluded.

But I am excluded. Read the next verse. "Do all these evildoers know nothing? They devour my people as though eating bread..."

It's talking of the nations who oppress Israel.

Then the psalm ends "God scattered the bones of those who attacked you; you put them to shame, for God despised them.
Oh, that salvation for Israel would come out of Zion! When God restores his people, let Jacob rejoice and Israel be glad!"

The psalm is talking about one thing, and when you only cite the part that interests you, you end up missing the entire meaning. Context matters.