Does anybody seriously believe the Pascal's Wager argument?

[Fenris]

You think Christian theology precludes obedience to God?

I think that Christianity is a principle based religion while Judaism is a rules based religion. I have heard many Christians speak of the saving grace of Jesus's sacrifice but none speak of the importance of obedience to God.

Christians do not keep the law of Moses, but by means of the new birth, keep the spirit of the law through our faith in Jesus, who fulfilled the law and the prophets. Your Luther quote essentially represents the idea that practicing sin is a way of proliferating grace. Paul contradicted that line of thinking:

Take it up with Luther.

[tango]

You think Christian theology precludes obedience to God?

I think that Christianity is a principle based religion while Judaism is a rules based religion. I have heard many Christians speak of the saving grace of Jesus's sacrifice but none speak of the importance of obedience to God.

I think the bit that Jesus said about "not everyone who says to me Lord, Lord will enter the kingdom, but only those who do the will of my Father" shows that it's important. Then there's the bit where he talks about separating the sheep and the goats and the thing about "when you did it not unto the least of these...".

Sadly you are right that a lot of people talk and/or act as if obeying God is an optional extra.

[Fenris]

Sadly you are right that a lot of people talk and/or act as if obeying God is an optional extra.

I... don't think that what you're describing is Christianity, but do go on. What Biblical laws do you follow?

[RabbiKnife]

The same two Jews do

Love the lord your God with all your heart and mind and strength

And

Love your neighbor as yourself

I still break them both every day

[Oscar_Kipling]

This whole thing started because I commented on an evangelist who met someone who asked lots of questions but made it very clear that even answering all the questions wouldn't result in them changing their mind. From there it's a small step to liken the situation to someone who refuses to believe unicorns exist and who makes it clear that even if they come and see my pet unicorn they still won't believe.

Yes, that is how this started, seems so long ago now. An evangelist, I've found, is answering questions by making at best unsubstantiated or unsupportable claims that are broadly plausible. The best of them offer credible reasons for why the sort of evidence a reasonable person might expect is impossible or unreasonable, and ultimately they are unable to demonstrate anything. I reject the idea that a person could guarantee that they will not be convinced by any of the evangelist's answers and be successful at this in spite of whatever the evangelist might say or demonstrate....it's like a 10 year old saying they'll never get married....Regardless that is a little beside the point imo, because failing to be convinced by someone making claims, offering credible rationale for why reasonable evidence is not available and just sort of talking about a thing that they cannot demonstrate in any tangible way seems to me to be the root of the problem, not so much that the person enters this exchange with a bad attitude. I cannot tell you how many times I've been told that If I just ask God to reveal himself that It will happen guaranteed without fail, and when I did and it didn't happen there was either a reason why what I did was wrong or that I need to wait for more time for him to reveal something to me or that I have somehow missed or have denied the sign that was surely given to me or that I was doing my spirit wrong or whatever or the worst one that I have to have faith that God will reveal himself to me before he does (you must believe the unicorn exists before you see it, right). So many excuses, this hypothetical person you are describing comes off to me as another excuse loaded up to explain why there are perfectly reasonable people who do not buy the insufficient "answers" that are actually on offer instead of unicorns. 

Nothing specifically, I was wondering whether your stance is more active or more passive.

Phew, okay.

[Sojourner]

I... don't think that what you're describing is Christianity, but do go on. What Biblical laws do you follow?

RK nailed this. The first four commandments pertain to our obligation to God, and the other six to our interaction with others. If we commit to the two precepts RK named, we keep the essence and spirit of the law. As he also alluded to, we are incapable of being 100 percent obedient 100 percent of the time, which is why we look to Jesus, whose faultless life and sacrifice fulfilled the law and the prophets and makes atonement for us.

[Fenris]

The same two Jews do

Jews follow 613, not 2.

And c'mon, this is bordering on dishonesty already. None of you believe that obedience to God is a prerequisite for anything, including the all important entering of the afterlife. Galatians 2:21 "... if righteousness could be gained through the law, Christ died for nothing!"

You believe that Christians enter the afterlife, regardless of their behavior. And non Christians don't enter the afterlife, regardless of the behavior.

[Fenris]

If we commit to the two precepts RK named, we keep the essence and spirit of the law.

I honestly have no idea what this means.

[Sojourner]

And c'mon, this is bordering on dishonesty already. None of you believe that obedience to God is a prerequisite for anything, including the all important entering of the afterlife. Galatians 2:21 "... if righteousness could be gained through the law, Christ died for nothing!"

You believe that Christians enter the afterlife, regardless of their behavior. And non Christians don't enter the afterlife, regardless of the behavior.

Christians believe that any sin that is repented of can be forgiven through Jesus's vicarious sacrifice, and Paul taught that grace through faith saves, rather than keeping the law. But it's patently false to insinuate that Christians inherit eternal life regardless of immoral behavior:

Do you not know that the wicked will not inherit the kingdom of God? Do not be deceived: Neither the sexually immoral, nor idolaters, nor adulterers, nor men who submit to or perform homosexual acts, nor thieves, nor the greedy, nor drunkards, nor verbal abusers, nor swindlers, will inherit the kingdom of God. (1 Cor 6:9-10)

But now I am writing you not to associate with anyone who claims to be a brother but is sexually immoral or greedy, an idolater or a verbal abuser, a drunkard or a swindler. With such a man do not even eat (1 Cor 5:11)

[Sojourner]

If we commit to the two precepts RK named, we keep the essence and spirit of the law.

I honestly have no idea what this means.

Jesus said the essence of the law is espoused in loving God with all your heart and mind, and loving your neighbor as yourself. If we truly abide by these precepts, we keep all 10 commandments.

Jews seek to follow 613 rules, even though it's impossible to be 100 percent compliant 100 percent of the time. The standards of God's holiness are so high we can never measure up to His expectations. You are satisfied with trying and falling short, but I meet God's expectations vicariously through the One Who did measure up. Because He was God before He was a man. Our respective approach to God diverges simply due to divergent theological dynamics.

BTW, happy Hanukkah. 

[Fenris]

Christians believe that any sin that is repented of can be forgiven through Jesus's vicarious sacrifice, and Paul taught that grace through faith saves, rather than keeping the law. But it's patently false to insinuate that Christians inherit eternal life regardless of immoral behavior:

So Luther's statement was in fact wrong? There are no devout believers in Christ who lived otherwise bad lives in heaven? I don't think you believe that. And if you do, it isn't what Christian dogma teaches.

[Fenris]

Jesus said the essence of the law is espoused in loving God with all your heart and mind, and loving your neighbor as yourself. If we truly abide by these precepts, we keep all 10 commandments.

But that's not necessarily true. You claim to love God, but do you keep the Sabbath? No? Why not? Don't you love God?

Jews seek to follow 613 rules, even though it's impossible to be 100 percent compliant 100 percent of the time. The standards of God's holiness are so high we can never measure up to His expectations.

So. One can do two things.
 
1) They can try to the best of their ability to do what God commands. And then when they fall short, they can ask God for forgiveness.

Or,

2) they can just give up and throw the whole list out.

I know which one I'm doing.

(This is not my great idea. It was actually shared with me by a Christian who converted to Judaism for exactly this reason.)

BTW, happy Hanukkah. 

Thanks! Waiting for my wife and daughter to come home to light the Menorah.

[tango]

The same two Jews do

Jews follow 613, not 2.

And c'mon, this is bordering on dishonesty already. None of you believe that obedience to God is a prerequisite for anything, including the all important entering of the afterlife. Galatians 2:21 "... if righteousness could be gained through the law, Christ died for nothing!"

You believe that Christians enter the afterlife, regardless of their behavior. And non Christians don't enter the afterlife, regardless of the behavior.

Jesus was pretty clear about doing God's will. James talked of faith demonstrated by works. We don't gain salvation by works but works are evidence of inner change. We could just as easily quote Romans 6:1, "Shall we continue to sin that grace may abound? Certainly not!". We don't gain righteousness by doing good things, that would mean we could earn our own way into heaven. A key question is that if we don't do good things, if we don't do the things that Jesus called us to do, we might do well to examine ourselves as to why that is.

[Fenris]

Jesus was pretty clear about doing God's will. James talked of faith demonstrated by works.

And yet Christians do not follow biblical law.

[tango]

Jesus was pretty clear about doing God's will. James talked of faith demonstrated by works.

And yet Christians do not follow biblical law.

If you mean things like the dietary rules from Leviticus we believe they were superseded. Not what goes into a man's mouth that makes him unclean but what comes out of it, and all that.

If you want to get into a more detailed discussion of which rules should stay and which should go, that's a lovely can of worms to play with. Chances are if you ask 10 Christians that question you'll get 11 opinions. Hence the fallback to the concept of loving God and loving each other, which Jesus said was the foundation of the Law and the Prophets.