A beastly notion

[ProDeo]

Things like these remind me of what Jesus said - For nothing is hidden except to be made manifest; nor is anything secret except to come to light Mark 4:22

God created the universe with very special features at first glance unneeded.

1. Why did God created Earth with coal, oil and gas which enabled the industrial revolution.

2. Why did God created electricity, we got radio, television, internet.

3. Someone in a studio speaks into a microphone and we can hear it live on our radio, sound travels through the air, what a feature. Did God had a purpose with this feature He created?

4. Same for television, the base is electricity again, images magically travel through the air via satellites in space live on our screen. Why?

5. And last with not least the internet, while it's very young it has changed our lives. Need info? Check the internet, in a period of about 20 years you can almost find everything. Is there a divine purpose?

Well, one purpose I can see is that how mankind is exposed by the evil it commits. We are living in a very special time, information is on our fingertips and we can learn (that's how I see it, YMMV) the consequences the moment A&E insisted to know the difference between good and evil.

The use of oil, gas, coal, electricity is good in itself, many good things may come from it. The discovery of an airplane likewise until someone decided you can also throw bombs with it. The internet was a great invention till people started to share porn, child porn, fake news, conspiracies to undermine societies.

For nothing is hidden except to be made manifest; nor is anything secret except to come to light Mark 4:22

It's happening and we are witlessness.

Your post gets more and more interesting everytime I read it. When I think of the electromagnetic force, I think of it as one of the intrinsic forces that dictate the behavior of the universe, So if I were to wonder why God created the electromagnetic force it would be in order to enable or mediate  fundamental interactions like chemical bonds or doing all the stuff that light does and then like broadcast radio/ television and internet would be these edge cases that were not designed for so much as they are what you can get when you contrive and exert precise limitations on these natural phenomena. I guess this is one of those areas where it is unclear to me how much intention God is supposed to be credited with. Some believers have told me in effect that God didn't create lead so that Lee Harvey Oswald could assassinate president Kennedy, That was free will. In the same way, surely there is some argument to be made that WiFi is a consequence of free will and not a design goal of the electromagnetic force. but idk I guess there is just as compelling an argument that it was all done on divine purpose ...which I guess is ultimately why I don't find God to be super useful when considering the reasons for stuff. Anyway it was interesting to watch you moosh God into it.

Thank you Oscar.

From a Christian perspective the logic is quite natural, lemme try to explain, this is going to be long I am afraid.

In the creation account (Genesis 1) God after the creation of man God said -

And God saw everything that he had made, and behold, it was very good.

Note, God did not say it was perfect!

So why not create a perfect world?

A bit of Plato.

The Cycle of Opposites
The first argument is based on the cyclical interchange by means of which every quality comes into being from its own opposite. Hot comes from cold and cold from hot: that is, hot things are just cold things that have warmed up, and cold things are just hot things that have cooled off. Similarly, people who are awake are just people who were asleep but then woke up, while people who are asleep are just people who were awake but then dozed off.

And so on, love vs hate, justice vs injustice, alive or dead, there is always an opposite.

Meaning, if good exists then evil must exist as well.

Meaning, God could have created a perfect world, perfect humans, no death, no wars, no diseases etc. but then these creatures should never experience the opposite of Himself, the presence of evil and the consequences (as we all experience from time to time) that come with that. How? By creating creatures without free will in order to keep them away from evil, not even aware of evil, only knowing and experience good.

Adam and Eve were created in Paradise. If you read chapter 2 & 3 well the Garden God created for Adam and Eve (in symbolic language) to live in was not a natural place, mankind lived in the presence of God [Gen 3:8], no death, mankind and animals lived from verbs and fruit, no flesh.

Instead of creating robots without free will to keep mankind unaware of evil God said -

And the LORD God commanded the man, saying, “You may surely eat of every tree of the garden, but of the tree of the knowledge of good and evil you shall not eat, for in the day that you eat of it you shall surely die.”

So a very good heavenly place [Gen 1:31] but not a perfect one because God gave Adam and Eve a choice. With the intention mankind should be obedient and keep that one simple commandment, stay away from evil.

Well I suppose you know how the story went, evil came in the form of a symbolic talking snake and seduced Adam and Eve with lies and they could not resist their curiosity to be equal as God (the lie) and like God know about good and evil and with the promise that unlike what God said they would not die, another lie. [Gen 3:1-5] The first sin with great consequences.

As a result Adam & Eve were removed from the heavenly place, away from the presence of God, thrown on the evolved Earth where everything was totally different. Death rules on Earth as God had said [Gen 3:17], without death Earth would be unlivable in a couple of months if insects don't die. In nature it's eat or be eaten. Most of us humans (me included) happily participate in the killing for food, we kill cows, pigs, birds for our daily tasty meal.

And God said - Then the LORD God said, “Behold, the man has become like one of us in knowing good and evil [Gen 3:22]

like one of us - so now we know too. Are we happy now?

I know Oscar you recently said something like that we live in a fantasy world so likely my rambling will be in vain. But to conclude, without the fall of mankind in the Garden of God the Bible would have been a very thin book, no Abraham, no Moses, no Israel, no Jesus Who had to come from the Father born as a human and die a cruel death for the sins of the world, reconcile what went wrong in the Garden of God. We still would have been happy living in God's garden forever. But now because of the express with of Adam & Eve (or maybe mankind) we have to face and learn about good and evil for a very limited time in the light of eternity before we return to our Maker.

Make sure you are there in the new garden (Earth) of God and I will send you my new email address 

[ProDeo]

To be complete, back to the coal, oil, gas, electricity, radio, television, internet -

Jesus - And this gospel of the kingdom shall be preached in all the world for a witness unto all nations; and then shall the end come.

So there you have it, the name of Jesus and His teachings shall be known to all nations. Radio, television, internet will help a great deal, maybe even decisive. Church in China is growing and growing. North Korea? Dunno.

But can you mention one name in history who claimed his name and teachings would get world wide attention and that it actually happened? Due to coal, oil, gas, electricity, radio, television, internet about 18-20 centuries later?

One of those fine details of the Gospel.

[Oscar_Kipling]

Things like these remind me of what Jesus said - For nothing is hidden except to be made manifest; nor is anything secret except to come to light Mark 4:22

God created the universe with very special features at first glance unneeded.

1. Why did God created Earth with coal, oil and gas which enabled the industrial revolution.

2. Why did God created electricity, we got radio, television, internet.

3. Someone in a studio speaks into a microphone and we can hear it live on our radio, sound travels through the air, what a feature. Did God had a purpose with this feature He created?

4. Same for television, the base is electricity again, images magically travel through the air via satellites in space live on our screen. Why?

5. And last with not least the internet, while it's very young it has changed our lives. Need info? Check the internet, in a period of about 20 years you can almost find everything. Is there a divine purpose?

Well, one purpose I can see is that how mankind is exposed by the evil it commits. We are living in a very special time, information is on our fingertips and we can learn (that's how I see it, YMMV) the consequences the moment A&E insisted to know the difference between good and evil.

The use of oil, gas, coal, electricity is good in itself, many good things may come from it. The discovery of an airplane likewise until someone decided you can also throw bombs with it. The internet was a great invention till people started to share porn, child porn, fake news, conspiracies to undermine societies.

For nothing is hidden except to be made manifest; nor is anything secret except to come to light Mark 4:22

It's happening and we are witlessness.

Your post gets more and more interesting everytime I read it. When I think of the electromagnetic force, I think of it as one of the intrinsic forces that dictate the behavior of the universe, So if I were to wonder why God created the electromagnetic force it would be in order to enable or mediate  fundamental interactions like chemical bonds or doing all the stuff that light does and then like broadcast radio/ television and internet would be these edge cases that were not designed for so much as they are what you can get when you contrive and exert precise limitations on these natural phenomena. I guess this is one of those areas where it is unclear to me how much intention God is supposed to be credited with. Some believers have told me in effect that God didn't create lead so that Lee Harvey Oswald could assassinate president Kennedy, That was free will. In the same way, surely there is some argument to be made that WiFi is a consequence of free will and not a design goal of the electromagnetic force. but idk I guess there is just as compelling an argument that it was all done on divine purpose ...which I guess is ultimately why I don't find God to be super useful when considering the reasons for stuff. Anyway it was interesting to watch you moosh God into it.

Thank you Oscar.

From a Christian perspective the logic is quite natural, lemme try to explain, this is going to be long I am afraid.

In the creation account (Genesis 1) God after the creation of man God said -

And God saw everything that he had made, and behold, it was very good.

Note, God did not say it was perfect!

So why not create a perfect world?

A bit of Plato.

The Cycle of Opposites
The first argument is based on the cyclical interchange by means of which every quality comes into being from its own opposite. Hot comes from cold and cold from hot: that is, hot things are just cold things that have warmed up, and cold things are just hot things that have cooled off. Similarly, people who are awake are just people who were asleep but then woke up, while people who are asleep are just people who were awake but then dozed off.

And so on, love vs hate, justice vs injustice, alive or dead, there is always an opposite.

Meaning, if good exists then evil must exist as well.

Meaning, God could have created a perfect world, perfect humans, no death, no wars, no diseases etc. but then these creatures should never experience the opposite of Himself, the presence of evil and the consequences (as we all experience from time to time) that come with that. How? By creating creatures without free will in order to keep them away from evil, not even aware of evil, only knowing and experience good.

Adam and Eve were created in Paradise. If you read chapter 2 & 3 well the Garden God created for Adam and Eve (in symbolic language) to live in was not a natural place, mankind lived in the presence of God [Gen 3:8], no death, mankind and animals lived from verbs and fruit, no flesh.

Instead of creating robots without free will to keep mankind unaware of evil God said -

And the LORD God commanded the man, saying, “You may surely eat of every tree of the garden, but of the tree of the knowledge of good and evil you shall not eat, for in the day that you eat of it you shall surely die.”

So a very good heavenly place [Gen 1:31] but not a perfect one because God gave Adam and Eve a choice. With the intention mankind should be obedient and keep that one simple commandment, stay away from evil.

Well I suppose you know how the story went, evil came in the form of a symbolic talking snake and seduced Adam and Eve with lies and they could not resist their curiosity to be equal as God (the lie) and like God know about good and evil and with the promise that unlike what God said they would not die, another lie. [Gen 3:1-5] The first sin with great consequences.

As a result Adam & Eve were removed from the heavenly place, away from the presence of God, thrown on the evolved Earth where everything was totally different. Death rules on Earth as God had said [Gen 3:17], without death Earth would be unlivable in a couple of months if insects don't die. In nature it's eat or be eaten. Most of us humans (me included) happily participate in the killing for food, we kill cows, pigs, birds for our daily tasty meal.

And God said - Then the LORD God said, “Behold, the man has become like one of us in knowing good and evil [Gen 3:22]

like one of us - so now we know too. Are we happy now?

I know Oscar you recently said something like that we live in a fantasy world so likely my rambling will be in vain. But to conclude, without the fall of mankind in the Garden of God the Bible would have been a very thin book, no Abraham, no Moses, no Israel, no Jesus Who had to come from the Father born as a human and die a cruel death for the sins of the world, reconcile what went wrong in the Garden of God. We still would have been happy living in God's garden forever. But now because of the express with of Adam & Eve (or maybe mankind) we have to face and learn about good and evil for a very limited time in the light of eternity before we return to our Maker.

Make sure you are there in the new garden (Earth) of God and I will send you my new email address 

Haha, well if I understand what you are referring to, I didn't quite say that you all are living in a fantasy world, just that significant portions of the bible are composed of fiction and that God is a complete fiction. I'm only bothering to make the distinction because I actually believe there is often a difference between living in a fantasy world and being a Christian...That is to say most Christians in my expirience don't behave as if they can actually move a mountain through intercessory prayer, they use Caterpillers or Komatsus to displace mountainous volumes of earth like a person that doesn't believe they have tangible influence or access to supernatural geokinetic manipulation.

With that out of the way, Some Christian folk do take God's evaluation of "good" to be synonymous with perfect, that is God's perfect creation. I'm of the opinion that this view and your view can both be competently argued in a manner that is consistent with the whole of their respective interpretations of God stuff and bible stuff. Unfortunately there is to my knowledge nothing of consequence that differentiates between them from a veracity standpoint. Anyway I guess your point at least in part is that God very well could have created the electromagnetic force as such that one day we could use it to beam his word all around the globe nearly instantaneously. I guess that's fine, there is no real means for me to confirm or refute that specific assertion. I have a gut feeling that if Jesus ever did actually claim that his message would be heard by all, he almost certainly wasn't the only person to ever make such an audacious claim as history is bursting at the seams with wild claims of gods & monsters and the secret keys of the eternal . I estimate that a fundamental feature of most such claims was that they were not accompanied by any sort of rigorous description of the electromagnetic field, photons or mathematical descriptions of the EM field's mechanics and so forth at least not for many centuries. I have some reticence about crediting Jesus with forecasting broadcasting or even movable type for that matter because to my knowledge he never got more specific about any future technologies than any of his contemporaries or predecessors. I mean if you claim to have created all of creation then I suppose it makes sense that you would credit yourself with any and all subsequent developments within said creation, but that's kind of the problem isn't it? It is a real general claim that is bereft of the kinds of detailed predictions and experimental confirmation that makes the photoelectric effect distinct from Plato's extramission jibber jabber. The only limit with assertions of Jesus' feats is essentially the imagination, there isn't much that cannot be plausibly asserted when your subject made everything, can do anything and you don't actually have to corroborate any of that with repeatable experimental data, in fact it is a key feature of Jesus that he is impermeable or transparent to this kind of causal & material examination. I don't think you live in a fantasy world, but I think Jesus does.

[RabbiKnife]

Then you would be wrong

[Oscar_Kipling]

To be complete, back to the coal, oil, gas, electricity, radio, television, internet -

Jesus - And this gospel of the kingdom shall be preached in all the world for a witness unto all nations; and then shall the end come.

So there you have it, the name of Jesus and His teachings shall be known to all nations. Radio, television, internet will help a great deal, maybe even decisive. Church in China is growing and growing. North Korea? Dunno.

But can you mention one name in history who claimed his name and teachings would get world wide attention and that it actually happened? Due to coal, oil, gas, electricity, radio, television, internet about 18-20 centuries later?

One of those fine details of the Gospel.

People have claimed:  To be living Gods or reincarnated instantiations of ancient kings and heroes, To have been hand selected by the God to rule over nations or the world, To sustain their bodies on only sunlight and air,  To make America great again, That they are the only one that can love you like this! To predict the future, To see the future, To control the future, To know what you are thinking, To run at top speed without bending their knees ..... All I mean to say is that people have in the past and will continue to make mind bogglingly grandiose claims because that is one of the things that people do, It's possible I suppose that Jesus is the only historical figure to have ever claimed something so general and wide reaching that it seemed preposterous at the time only for it to come to fruition eons after his death..... but just based on how much wild junk people say and how frequently they say it, I feel like statistically it is unlikely that Jesus is the singular figure to have stumbled into making an unlikely prediction that came to pass...I see why you want it to be so, but i genuinely doubt that it is the case.

[Sojourner]

Haha, well if I understand what you are referring to, I didn't quite say that you all are living in a fantasy world, just that significant portions of the bible are composed of fiction and that God is a complete fiction.

If God is a complete fiction, then we are deluded fools, pinning our hopes on inane, fabricated nonsense. And if that's how you perceive us, I'm left wondering what the appeal is that keeps bringing you back like a bad penny. Since you scoff at what we hold sacred, why do you squander so much time (and tens of thousands of words) engaging people with whom you have such irreconcilable differences? Either you delight in verbally poking at us with your stick of skepticism, or else you're an empty, lonely person with no better way to invest your time. I'm not sure which of the two I find sadder.

On the other hand, if God is the ultimate truth and you persist in rejecting salvation, you will one day confront the worst reality imaginable: being damned for all eternity by the God whose existence you scoffed at. Worse, you will realize too late you were wrong, and that your fate could easily have been avoided. Life is about choices, and all other decisions we make in this life pale to insignificance where eternity and salvation are concerned. Because forever never ends.   

[ProDeo]

To be complete, back to the coal, oil, gas, electricity, radio, television, internet -

Jesus - And this gospel of the kingdom shall be preached in all the world for a witness unto all nations; and then shall the end come.

So there you have it, the name of Jesus and His teachings shall be known to all nations. Radio, television, internet will help a great deal, maybe even decisive. Church in China is growing and growing. North Korea? Dunno.

But can you mention one name in history who claimed his name and teachings would get world wide attention and that it actually happened? Due to coal, oil, gas, electricity, radio, television, internet about 18-20 centuries later?

One of those fine details of the Gospel.

People have claimed:  To be living Gods or reincarnated instantiations of ancient kings and heroes, To have been hand selected by the God to rule over nations or the world, To sustain their bodies on only sunlight and air,  To make America great again, That they are the only one that can love you like this! To predict the future, To see the future, To control the future, To know what you are thinking, To run at top speed without bending their knees ..... All I mean to say is that people have in the past and will continue to make mind bogglingly grandiose claims because that is one of the things that people do, It's possible I suppose that Jesus is the only historical figure to have ever claimed something so general and wide reaching that it seemed preposterous at the time only for it to come to fruition eons after his death..... but just based on how much wild junk people say and how frequently they say it, I feel like statistically it is unlikely that Jesus is the singular figure to have stumbled into making an unlikely prediction that came to pass...I see why you want it to be so, but i genuinely doubt that it is the case.

Sure, you can reason everything to the opposite (and so can I), but you are too smart to be a 100% atheist, or?

[RabbiKnife]

Isn’t claiming that there is no God a truth statement of which only a God would have knowledge?

[Oscar_Kipling]

Then you would be wrong

I don't suppose you are going to elaborate on that idea are you?

[Oscar_Kipling]

Haha, well if I understand what you are referring to, I didn't quite say that you all are living in a fantasy world, just that significant portions of the bible are composed of fiction and that God is a complete fiction.

If God is a complete fiction, then we are deluded fools, pinning our hopes on inane, fabricated nonsense. And if that's how you perceive us, I'm left wondering what the appeal is that keeps bringing you back like a bad penny. Since you scoff at what we hold sacred, why do you squander so much time (and tens of thousands of words) engaging people with whom you have such irreconcilable differences? Either you delight in verbally poking at us with your stick of skepticism, or else you're an empty, lonely person with no better way to invest your time. I'm not sure which of the two I find sadder.

I've noticed that there is a tendency for some folks to conflate fictional with inanane and nonsensical, that isn't really my opinion. Generally speaking, and I think this is proven through my posts, I think that fiction can be silly, fun or inane at times, but it can also provide insight, enlightenment and wisdom at times. For instance I genuinely do think that Batman the animated series can provide thoughtful material for processing concepts like terrorism, grief and introversion in ways that can actually be useful to some folks like me at least. In other words I find folks here to be inane and nonsensical at times, and at times that inanity can be directly attributed to some nonsense in the bible, but just like I wouldn't reduce a criminal to an irredeemably evil worthless non-entity just based on some truly repugnant act they've committed or a reprehensible aspect of their personality, I do not believe that your belief in some fictional ideas reduces you to merely a deluded fool...In fact I feel like i've been so consistent about this aspect of my beliefs that it really pissed people off recently....so I don't think you have good reason to attribute this take to me. That being said, I suppose that there are so many sad aspects of my life and my person that you can't really go wrong in however you choose to pity me, so I wouldn't concern myself with it too much if I were you.

On the other hand, if God is the ultimate truth and you persist in rejecting salvation, you will one day confront the worst reality imaginable: being damned for all eternity by the God whose existence you scoffed at. Worse, you will realize too late you were wrong, and that your fate could easily have been avoided. Life is about choices, and all other decisions we make in this life pale to insignificance where eternity and salvation are concerned. Because forever never ends.

Yeah, that would be quite the bitter surprise. I do have to push back a bit on the idea that I could have easily avoided my fate...It is as if you are suggesting that I could simply choose to believe something that I do not find the least bit convincing. Is that what you are suggesting?

[Oscar_Kipling]

To be complete, back to the coal, oil, gas, electricity, radio, television, internet -

Jesus - And this gospel of the kingdom shall be preached in all the world for a witness unto all nations; and then shall the end come.

So there you have it, the name of Jesus and His teachings shall be known to all nations. Radio, television, internet will help a great deal, maybe even decisive. Church in China is growing and growing. North Korea? Dunno.

But can you mention one name in history who claimed his name and teachings would get world wide attention and that it actually happened? Due to coal, oil, gas, electricity, radio, television, internet about 18-20 centuries later?

One of those fine details of the Gospel.

People have claimed:  To be living Gods or reincarnated instantiations of ancient kings and heroes, To have been hand selected by the God to rule over nations or the world, To sustain their bodies on only sunlight and air,  To make America great again, That they are the only one that can love you like this! To predict the future, To see the future, To control the future, To know what you are thinking, To run at top speed without bending their knees ..... All I mean to say is that people have in the past and will continue to make mind bogglingly grandiose claims because that is one of the things that people do, It's possible I suppose that Jesus is the only historical figure to have ever claimed something so general and wide reaching that it seemed preposterous at the time only for it to come to fruition eons after his death..... but just based on how much wild junk people say and how frequently they say it, I feel like statistically it is unlikely that Jesus is the singular figure to have stumbled into making an unlikely prediction that came to pass...I see why you want it to be so, but i genuinely doubt that it is the case.

Sure, you can reason everything to the opposite (and so can I), but you are too smart to be a 100% atheist, or?

haha, I have found that I'm not too smart for anything really, it's one of the reasons I don't put intelligence on a pedestal..Intelligence is useful for lots of things, but there are other traits that lead to much happier, more successful and all around more functional people. Anyway, i'm not sure what you could mean when it comes to being an arbitrary percentage atheist, could you explain what  it would mean to be say 87% atheist?

I'm not sure that I'm reasoning the opposite, you asserted that Jesus was the only  person to ever make the wild claim that his name, likeness,image and intellectual property would be world renowned and I think plenty of folks have probably made such claims and I bet some of them are pretty famous today. Either way, Jesus didn't actually provide any  insight into any of the fundamental forces much less electromagnetism...that would have been special and impressive.

[Oscar_Kipling]

Isn’t claiming that there is no God a truth statement of which only a God would have knowledge?

I suppose there could be some combination of a God and a truth statement about that God's existence that could be formulated such that only the god could have knowledge of the veracity of that statement, but like as a rule I don't see why the veracity of statements regarding the existence of a god or God would be strictly the domain of that god or God. I believe that you are presenting a God furnished with a very idiosyncratic trait that is likely incompatible with the God concept of at least some of you brothers and sisters on this board...So I have to ask, What lead you to believe that only a God would have knowledge of the truth of the statement "There is no God"?

[Athanasius]

Then you would be wrong

I don't suppose you are going to elaborate on that idea are you?

He's calling into question your presuppositional bias vis-a-vis the blind elevation of one metaphysic over another. Appropriately considered, your notion of a "fantasy world" becomes so distributed as to be moot. The theist is no more in a 'fantasy world' than the a-theist (or a-gnostic) is. The addition of a negation doesn't suddenly entail a more sober view of the world.

As stated, the suggestion is little more than "I disagree, therefore, you would be living in a fantasy world if X Y Z". That in itself is fantastical thinking.

[RabbiKnife]

What he said.   ^^^

[Oscar_Kipling]

Then you would be wrong

I don't suppose you are going to elaborate on that idea are you?

He's calling into question your presuppositional bias vis-a-vis the blind elevation of one metaphysic over another. Appropriately considered, your notion of a "fantasy world" becomes so distributed as to be moot. The theist is no more in a 'fantasy world' than the a-theist (or a-gnostic) is. The addition of a negation doesn't suddenly entail a more sober view of the world.

As stated, the suggestion is little more than "I disagree, therefore, you would be living in a fantasy world if X Y Z". That in itself is fantastical thinking.

I quite literally never said the theist was living in a fantasy world, I specifically disagreed with the assertion that my position must be that i believe Christians are deluded fools living in a fantasy world...So you want to talk about what I actually did say or just continue making stuff up?