Christian, but not 'Bible-believing'

[Fenris]

Something observed, hence, eyewitness.

Something felt. "Observed" would imply that someone standing next to that person would see the same thing. This is not the case.

[Fenris]

I have to ask a simple question, did King David write all those Psalms because he "felt" saved by God, or did he "know" he was saved by God?

I don't think that king David was "saved" by God. That is a Christian concept.

Let me add, did all the prophets of the Old Testament "feel" like God was speaking to them, or did they "know" God was speaking to them?

That's actually not relevant. The issue is whether or not we believe what the bible says happened.

Do I believe in the revelation at Sinai? Yes. Because I believe the bible's description of millions of people hearing God speak "אָֽנֹכִ֨י יְהֹוָ֣ה אֱלֹהֶ֔יךָ אֲשֶׁ֣ר הֽוֹצֵאתִ֩יךָ֩ מֵאֶ֨רֶץ מִצְרַ֜יִם מִבֵּ֣ית עֲבָדִ֗ים"

[Slug1]

I have to ask a simple question, did King David write all those Psalms because he "felt" saved by God, or did he "know" he was saved by God?

I don't think that king David was "saved" by God. That is a Christian concept.

Due to Psalm 51 and 32, I can't agree with you. Salvation is more than any feeling and anyone who God has saved actually fellowships with God. Not by a feeling but by experiential knowledge through receiving (personal relationship) from God.

In those Psalms, we have evidence of what a personal relationship with God does, to those who are saved.

That's actually not relevant. The issue is whether or not we believe what the bible says happened.
Do I believe in the revelation at Sinai? Yes. Because I believe the bible's description of millions of people hearing God speak "אָֽנֹכִ֨י יְהֹוָ֣ה אֱלֹהֶ֔יךָ אֲשֶׁ֣ר הֽוֹצֵאתִ֩יךָ֩ מֵאֶ֨רֶץ מִצְרַ֜יִם מִבֵּ֣ית עֲבָדִ֗ים"

So your belief in the revelation at Sinai is based on an objective truth (God spoke), even though others my not believe in the objective truth that God can and has spoken physically to people?

[Fenris]

Due to Psalm 51 and 32, I can't agree with you.

Psalms are poems. If you want to base your theology on a poem, have at it. It means ignoring the exhaustive list of laws in the bible that God commands.

How do Christians reconcile this?

Psalm 51:18 For You do not wish a sacrifice, or I should give it; You do not desire a burnt offering. The sacrifices of God are a broken spirit; O God, You will not despise a broken and crushed heart.

Or this: Psalm 32:5  I said, "I will confess my transgressions to the Lord," and You forgave the iniquity of my sin forever.


They both say that sacrifice is not necessary. Merely confessing one's sin to God and feeling contrite seem to be sufficient.

Salvation is more than any feeling and anyone who God has saved actually fellowships with God. Not by a feeling but by experiential knowledge through receiving (personal relationship) from God.

It's a feeling. Like the way I feel at the end of Yom Kippur. I've fasted and prayed all day and I feel forgiven for my sins of the past year. Thats my experiential knowledge.

So your belief in the revelation at Sinai is based on an objective truth (God spoke), even though others my not believe in the objective truth that God can and has spoken physically to people?

No, my belief in the revelation at Sinai is based on a book that claims an objective proof. Belief in this book itself is subjective however.

[Slug1]

Due to Psalm 51 and 32, I can't agree with you.

Psalms are poems. If you want to base your theology on a poem, have at it. It means ignoring the exhaustive list of laws in the bible that God commands.

How do Christians reconcile this?

Psalm 51:18 For You do not wish a sacrifice, or I should give it; You do not desire a burnt offering. The sacrifices of God are a broken spirit; O God, You will not despise a broken and crushed heart.

Or this: Psalm 32:5  I said, "I will confess my transgressions to the Lord," and You forgave the iniquity of my sin forever.


They both say that sacrifice is not necessary. Merely confessing one's sin to God and feeling contrite seem to be sufficient.

Yes, but it's not about feeling contrite, it's about the struggle between flesh and spirit and the "conviction" that leads a person who has sinned, to humble themselves before God, and they repent.  For King David, God is his Savior, it's not about any feeling, it's all about truth about what God's revealed in both the OT and the NT, and experiential relationship WITH a sovereign God and the salvation He's provided for those who believe in Him.

King David was saved, many years before him, the prostitute Rehab was spiritually saved due to her belief in the Israeli God. Not a feeling at all, but a spiritual change from death to life (spiritually).

It's a feeling. Like the way I feel at the end of Yom Kippur. I've fasted and prayed all day and I feel forgiven for my sins of the past year. Thats my experiential knowledge.

Salvation is more than a feeling. In the simplest of terms, it's an "event" and "change" from spiritual death to spiritual life. If one "feels" something, it's a product of their salvation. I say this because if one isn't feeling it, say due to a hardship, that does not mean salvation has stopped, or restarted when a feeling is there, again.

Isaiah 12:2 Behold, God is my salvation, I will trust and not be afraid; ‘For YAH, the LORD, is my strength and song; He also has become my salvation.’ ”

Not about feeling at all my friend, all about what God does and what we reap due to His action of saving believers (those who respond to God's grace), be they Jew or Gentile.

No, my belief in the revelation at Sinai is based on a book that claims an objective proof. Belief in this book itself is subjective however.

This is where you and I will be on opposite ends of what is objective or subjective. All Scripture is truth and while all Scripture can be debated due to interpretation, believed, not believed, Scripture will always be objective because all Scripture is always truth, despite our personal understanding, or acceptance.

[The Parson]

Feelings as opposed to knowledge. David said "and I will dwell in the house of the Lord forever". Pretty bold statement for someone relying on his feelings.

[Slug1]

Feelings as opposed to knowledge. David said "and I will dwell in the house of the Lord forever". Pretty bold statement for someone relying on his feelings.

Amen and Hooah!!

He even "knew" that when he got to heaven, he'd see his lost son again. No way was he speaking on feelings! He was speaking on revealed knowledge of the relationship we have (he had) with God and he knew all about God's salvation.

[Fenris]

Yes, but it's not about feeling contrite, it's about the struggle between flesh and spirit and the "conviction" that leads a person who has sinned, to humble themselves before God, and they repent.

This begs questions.

What is a "sin"?

Are you saying that repentance is sufficient, without sacrifice, as these Psalms are telling us?

For King David, God is his Savior, it's not about any feeling, it's all about truth about what God's revealed in both the OT and the NT

The NT was not yet written when king David lived. It seems rather anachronistic to apply any of its concepts to people who lived a thousand years earlier.

King David was saved

"Saved" from what?

Not a feeling at all, but a spiritual change from death to life (spiritually).

That's... a feeling.

Salvation is more than a feeling. In the simplest of terms, it's an "event" and "change" from spiritual death to spiritual life. If one "feels" something, it's a product of their salvation.

It's more than a feeling, but it's also just a feeling. OK.

Isaiah 12:2 Behold, God is my salvation, I will trust and not be afraid; ‘For YAH, the LORD, is my strength and song; He also has become my salvation.’ ”

"Salvation" from  what?

Not about feeling at all my friend, all about what God does and what we reap due to His action of saving believers (those who respond to God's grace), be they Jew or Gentile.

And yet Isaiah begins with a lesson on a change in behavior, not belief or "God's grace". 

Wash and make yourselves clean.
    Take your evil deeds out of my sight;
    stop doing wrong.
 Learn to do right; seek justice.
    Defend the oppressed.
Take up the cause of the fatherless;
    plead the case of the widow.

This is where you and I will be on opposite ends of what is objective or subjective. All Scripture is truth and while all Scripture can be debated due to interpretation, believed, not believed, Scripture will always be objective because all Scripture is always truth, despite our personal understanding, or acceptance.

Sure, scripture is "truth" to the believer.

[Fenris]

Feelings as opposed to knowledge. David said "and I will dwell in the house of the Lord forever". Pretty bold statement for someone relying on his feelings.

Umm he's writing a poem. Of course it's about his feelings. What's more, it doesn't say "forever", it says "long days". And David didn't dwell in "the house of the Lord", he was a shepherd and a soldier and finally a king. He dwelled in the world. So perhaps this means that he wants to see God in the world, regardless of his physical location...

[Fenris]

He even "knew" that when he got to heaven, he'd see his lost son again. No way was he speaking on feelings! He was speaking on revealed knowledge of the relationship we have (he had) with God and he knew all about God's salvation.

How do you know this? I understand that it's something that you believe to be true (there's that word again) but this goes beyond what the text says.

[The Parson]

Feelings as opposed to knowledge. David said "and I will dwell in the house of the Lord forever". Pretty bold statement for someone relying on his feelings.

Umm he's writing a poem. Of course it's about his feelings. What's more, it doesn't say "forever", it says "long days". And David didn't dwell in "the house of the Lord", he was a shepherd and a soldier and finally a king. He dwelled in the world. So perhaps this means that he wants to see God in the world, regardless of his physical location...

Aw, cut it out Fenrus. I will dwell, future tense...

[Fenris]

Aw, cut it out Fenrus. I will dwell, future tense...

As I said, he's asking that he dwell "in the house of the Lord" wherever he finds himself. It's a very nice poem, don't you think?

[Rebecca]

Aw, cut it out Fenrus. I will dwell, future tense...

As I said, he's asking that he dwell "in the house of the Lord" wherever he finds himself. It's a very nice poem, don't you think?

Reads like you really dont even like God. Which fits in the 2John

[Fenris]

Reads like you really dont even like God.

Which shows how little you know about me.

[ProDeo]

Be careful with the words FOREVER | EVERLASTING | ALL

Examples -

Deut 15:16 - But if he says to you, ‘I will not go out from you,’ because he loves you and your household, since he is well-off with you, 17 then you shall take an awl, and put it through his ear into the door, and he shall be your slave forever

Here forever means till one of them dies.

John 12:32 - And I, when I am lifted up from the earth, will draw all people to myself.”

Here all refers to v19 - the Pharisees said to one another, “You see that you are gaining nothing. Look, the world has gone after him.”

Of course the Pharisees exaggerated with "the whole world" and Jesus used the superlative with "all", meaning, wait till you [Pharisees] have crucified me, even more people will come and see.