Christian, but not 'Bible-believing'

[Athanasius]

I just thought you'd be okay answering for some other Jewish believers I know, or, like, maybe we shouldn't ask less-than-stellar general questions.

What made the questions "less than stellar"? I'm genuinely curious how people can present their religious beliefs as "facts".

Who has done that?

[Fenris]

Who has done that?

Seriously? Who hasn't.

Slug1: I ask this because you say my salvation is not visible, yet if I was to produce a written record or all my personal experiences concerning how Jesus has changed me, led me and used me, add to this a written record of all my experiences that are witnessed by others and they write testimony of how they have seen change and how they have seen Jesus work in me and through me... why can't such eyewitness account be objective?

you: It exists - or existed - in the world objectively, like a tree might.

Rebecca: Provable to the  believing, unprovable to the heathen.

You are all arguing that your religious beliefs are factual and based on facts, when they are actually beliefs that are based on faith.

[Rebecca]

Who has done that?

Seriously? Who hasn't.

Slug1: I ask this because you say my salvation is not visible, yet if I was to produce a written record or all my personal experiences concerning how Jesus has changed me, led me and used me, add to this a written record of all my experiences that are witnessed by others and they write testimony of how they have seen change and how they have seen Jesus work in me and through me... why can't such eyewitness account be objective?

you: It exists - or existed - in the world objectively, like a tree might.

Rebecca: Provable to the  believing, unprovable to the heathen.

You are all arguing that your religious beliefs are factual and based on facts, when they are actually beliefs that are based on faith.

Your understandings are not facts.

[Fenris]

Your understandings are not facts.

Umm ok, I don't see how this pertains to what I said, or the statements that I am quoting for that matter.

[Athanasius]

Who has done that?

Seriously? Who hasn't.

Slug1: I ask this because you say my salvation is not visible, yet if I was to produce a written record or all my personal experiences concerning how Jesus has changed me, led me and used me, add to this a written record of all my experiences that are witnessed by others and they write testimony of how they have seen change and how they have seen Jesus work in me and through me... why can't such eyewitness account be objective?

you: It exists - or existed - in the world objectively, like a tree might.

Rebecca: Provable to the  believing, unprovable to the heathen.

You are all arguing that your religious beliefs are factual and based on facts, when they are actually beliefs that are based on faith.

These quotes don't show anyone saying our beliefs are "facts". They're saying exactly what you said, replying to me about Abraham.

As for what Slug1 is saying, or my quote -- these pertain to evidence gathering, not "faith is fact".

[Fenris]

As for what Slug1 is saying, or my quote -- these pertain to evidence gathering, not "faith is fact".

I'm going to quote Slug1 again:

I ask this because you say my salvation is not visible, yet if I was to produce a written record or all my personal experiences concerning how Jesus has changed me, led me and used me, add to this a written record of all my experiences that are witnessed by others and they write testimony of how they have seen change and how they have seen Jesus work in me and through me... why can't such eyewitness account be objective?

Now I may be misunderstanding him. But it sounds to me like he's saying that his faith in his salvation, while not being visible, should be considered "objective" because he says that it is.

Perhaps he can come and clarify this for us.

[Athanasius]

As for what Slug1 is saying, or my quote -- these pertain to evidence gathering, not "faith is fact".

I'm going to quote Slug1 again:

I ask this because you say my salvation is not visible, yet if I was to produce a written record or all my personal experiences concerning how Jesus has changed me, led me and used me, add to this a written record of all my experiences that are witnessed by others and they write testimony of how they have seen change and how they have seen Jesus work in me and through me... why can't such eyewitness account be objective?

Now I may be misunderstanding him. But it sounds to me like he's saying that his faith in his salvation, while not being visible, should be considered "objective" because he says that it is.

Perhaps he can come and clarify this for us.

He's asking why "such eyewitness account" [sic] couldn't be considered objective, which is different from saying it should be considered objective. So, why not?

To put it another way: did the Biblical authors write purely subjectively about subjective things that only ever subjectively happened, objectively speaking? That's what Slug1 is speaking to if I'm not mistaken. If it's not, it works out that way anyway.

[Slug1]

As for what Slug1 is saying, or my quote -- these pertain to evidence gathering, not "faith is fact".

I'm going to quote Slug1 again:

I ask this because you say my salvation is not visible, yet if I was to produce a written record or all my personal experiences concerning how Jesus has changed me, led me and used me, add to this a written record of all my experiences that are witnessed by others and they write testimony of how they have seen change and how they have seen Jesus work in me and through me... why can't such eyewitness account be objective?

Now I may be misunderstanding him. But it sounds to me like he's saying that his faith in his salvation, while not being visible, should be considered "objective" because he says that it is.

Perhaps he can come and clarify this for us.

My point in the quoted part, is faith in Christ and that He has saved any believer, can be verifiable = evidence, produce, fruit, or whatever term anyone can utilize as a "proof" must cause any skeptic to pause and honestly evaluate the evidence.

Years back I made a comment about being found innocent or guilty in a court of law concerning ones salvation, if they "are" a Christian. However, in such a case a prosecutor must prove the Christian innocent and the defense must prove the Christian guilty.

Anyway, if one (a Christian) was to be able to document all the faith based works that the Holy Spirit has led them to do, compound this with documented eye witness accounts. As all the documented eyewitness accounts are presented, compound this with eyewitness testimony, as well as the direct testimony of the Christian on trial... the process of proving all accounts as false or truth, if honestly pursued, will render a truth that is objective. Be it either innocent (not saved) or guilty (is saved).

Faith, while invisible does produce very visible evidence(s).

Abraham, his faith is invisible but look at all the faithful works produced DUE to faith. His faith cannot be denied as the fruit is very visible.

Years later, all of Israel faithfully obeyed God when they followed His instructions on how to defeat Jericho. Their faith, while invisible, produced a very visible victory as God did His part DUE to their faithful obedience.

Gideon's faith, is invisible, yet DUE to the faith, He trusted God when led to choose only 300 warriors.

Yes, faith is invisible but BY faith, anyone faithful to God is led to do works that are visible and thus, objectifies faith.

[Athanasius]

Right, which doesn't speak to whether a certain person finds those accounts compelling. We're not talking objective as in, 2 + 2 = 4.

[Fenris]

My point in the quoted part,

Ah. Thanks for returning to clarify!

is faith in Christ and that He has saved any believer, can be verifiable = evidence

This is exactly what I said, and also what I took issue with.

No, your faith is not "verifiable evidence". Your faith is something that you feel. Your feeling of being "saved" is also something that you feel. A such, it is completely and totally subjective. The fact that you say you have this feeling does not make it objective.

Years back I made a comment about being found innocent or guilty in a court of law concerning ones salvation, if they "are" a Christian. However, in such a case a prosecutor must prove the Christian innocent and the defense must prove the Christian guilty.

The legal weight of evidence to prove guilt in a criminal court is called "beyond a reasonable doubt". One's religion or faith are not the kind of things that can be proved to this sort of standard (the Inquisition notwithstanding).

Anyway, if one (a Christian) was to be able to document all the faith based works that the Holy Spirit has led them to do, compound this with documented eye witness accounts.

And yet people who were ostensibly Christian did some very terrible things. And I'm told this doesn't matter, because their faith alone saves them.

Faith, while invisible does produce very visible evidence(s).

This is true of any faith. It doesn't mean that feeling of faith is correct or that the religion that inspired that feeling of faith is correct.

Look at the millions of Jews martyred through the centuries. (Primarily by people claiming to be Christian, by the way). Most could have avoided that fate by converting to Christianity. And yet they did not. Their faith also produced what you would call "physical evidence". Does that count?

Abraham, his faith is invisible but look at all the faithful works produced DUE to faith. His faith cannot be denied as the fruit is very visible.

Years later, all of Israel faithfully obeyed God when they followed His instructions on how to defeat Jericho. Their faith, while invisible, produced a very visible victory as God did His part DUE to their faithful obedience.

Gideon's faith, is invisible, yet DUE to the faith, He trusted God when led to choose only 300 warriors.

Why do you cite the behavior of Jews in the bible but not Jews that lived after the bible? The IDF has pulled off some pretty dramatic upsets on the battlefield. Yet I don't see one Christian using that fact as evidence that Judaism is the correct faith.

[Fenris]

He's asking why "such eyewitness account" [sic] couldn't be considered objective, which is different from saying it should be considered objective. So, why not?

Because his eyewitness account is of something that he felt. That is by definition subjective.

To put it another way: did the Biblical authors write purely subjectively about subjective things that only ever subjectively happened

Physical events that other people could see are not subjective. On the other hand, the bible itself is not an objective work. It is a series of books written by believers, for believers. I'm not going to whip out the book of Genesis while having a discussion with an astrophysicist as proof that God created the universe in 6 days. 

[Rebecca]

....Judaism is the correct faith.

is that a fact?

[Fenris]

....Judaism is the correct faith.

is that a fact?

It's subjective, not objective. Just like Christianity, eh?

[Slug1]

My point in the quoted part,

Ah. Thanks for returning to clarify!

is faith in Christ and that He has saved any believer, can be verifiable = evidence

This is exactly what I said, and also what I took issue with.

No, your faith is not "verifiable evidence". Your faith is something that you feel. Your feeling of being "saved" is also something that you feel. A such, it is completely and totally subjective. The fact that you say you have this feeling does not make it objective.

Years back I made a comment about being found innocent or guilty in a court of law concerning ones salvation, if they "are" a Christian. However, in such a case a prosecutor must prove the Christian innocent and the defense must prove the Christian guilty.

The legal weight of evidence to prove guilt in a criminal court is called "beyond a reasonable doubt". One's religion or faith are not the kind of things that can be proved to this sort of standard (the Inquisition notwithstanding).

Anyway, if one (a Christian) was to be able to document all the faith based works that the Holy Spirit has led them to do, compound this with documented eye witness accounts.

And yet people who were ostensibly Christian did some very terrible things. And I'm told this doesn't matter, because their faith alone saves them.

Faith, while invisible does produce very visible evidence(s).

This is true of any faith. It doesn't mean that feeling of faith is correct or that the religion that inspired that feeling of faith is correct.

Look at the millions of Jews martyred through the centuries. (Primarily by people claiming to be Christian, by the way). Most could have avoided that fate by converting to Christianity. And yet they did not. Their faith also produced what you would call "physical evidence". Does that count?

Abraham, his faith is invisible but look at all the faithful works produced DUE to faith. His faith cannot be denied as the fruit is very visible.

Years later, all of Israel faithfully obeyed God when they followed His instructions on how to defeat Jericho. Their faith, while invisible, produced a very visible victory as God did His part DUE to their faithful obedience.

Gideon's faith, is invisible, yet DUE to the faith, He trusted God when led to choose only 300 warriors.

Why do you cite the behavior of Jews in the bible but not Jews that lived after the bible? The IDF has pulled off some pretty dramatic upsets on the battlefield. Yet I don't see one Christian using that fact as evidence that Judaism is the correct faith.

I have to ask a simple question, did King David write all those Psalms because he "felt" saved by God, or did he "know" he was saved by God?

Edit: Let me add, did all the prophets of the Old Testament "feel" like God was speaking to them, or did they "know" God was speaking to them?

[Athanasius]

Because his eyewitness account is of something that he felt. That is by definition subjective.

Something observed, hence, eyewitness.

Physical events that other people could see are not subjective. On the other hand, the bible itself is not an objective work. It is a series of books written by believers, for believers. I'm not going to whip out the book of Genesis while having a discussion with an astrophysicist as proof that God created the universe in 6 days.

Of course.