Christian, but not 'Bible-believing'

[Slug1]

Facts are not subject to belief.

Since I can interpret this statement in multiple ways, the fact is, that a fact cannot be made into something that is nonfactual, simply by unbelief.

Who gets to determine which of God's words are the truth? Which words are the truth? My Bible? Yours? The Koran? The Book of Mormon? The Bhagavad Gita?

Well, God revealed per His words, actions, etc in your Bible is the same God revealed in what I say is my Bible. As for The Koran, Book of the Mormon, The Bhagavad Gita, God doesn't speak nor is revealed through His actions. Point blank, these three writings are against God who is revealed.

Why do I mention clarity in the messianic era? Because the events that the bible describe say there will be clarity. For example-

Isaiah 11:  the earth will be full of the knowledge of the LORD as the sea is full of water.

Isaiah 40: the glory of the LORD will be revealed, and all humanity together will see it

Habakkuk 2: For the earth will be filled with the knowledge of the glory of the LORD as the waters cover the sea.

Ezekiel 37: Then the nations will know that I the Lord make Israel holy, when my sanctuary is among them forever.

Now, if my belief is wrong and my bible isn't correct, then obviously none of these things will happen.

Hooah! When Jesus returns such prophecy will come to pass.

[Fenris]

Since I can interpret this statement in multiple ways, the fact is, that a fact cannot be made into something that is nonfactual, simply by unbelief.

I don't think you're understanding the distinction I'm trying to make here.

Fact: The sun is shining in the sky. Why is this a fact? Because I can look up in the sky and see it.

Not a fact: God gave Moses the Ten Commandments at Sinai. We may both believe this to be true, but we can't prove that it happened to someone who does not believe it. Their unbelief doesn't make it nonfactual; it is nonfactual.

Well, God revealed per His words, actions, etc in your Bible is the same God revealed in what I say is my Bible. As for The Koran, Book of the Mormon, The Bhagavad Gita, God doesn't speak nor is revealed through His actions.

This is all only valid from within your belief system. A Mormon or Muslim would say that their view of their bible is God's revelation.

Point blank, these three writings are against God who is revealed.

And I think that the NT is against what God revealed in my bible. So where does that leave us?

Hooah! When Jesus returns such prophecy will come to pass.

So we can agree that in the messianic era the truth will be revealed to everyone. But that hasn't happened yet.

[Slug1]

Since I can interpret this statement in multiple ways, the fact is, that a fact cannot be made into something that is nonfactual, simply by unbelief.

I don't think you're understanding the distinction I'm trying to make here.

Fact: The sun is shining in the sky. Why is this a fact? Because I can look up in the sky and see it.

Not a fact: God gave Moses the Ten Commandments at Sinai. We may both believe this to be true, but we can't prove that it happened to someone who does not believe it. Their unbelief doesn't make it nonfactual; it is nonfactual.

Your example actually support's the distinction I am making. Using your example, I am trying to say that the sun shining is a factual truth no matter what a person believes.

Your sun example proves my point because if I was to get on the phone with someone on the other side of the earth and say the sun is shining, their denial that the sun is shining does not "make" the fact, nonfactual.  The sun IS shining.

[Fenris]

Your example actually support's the distinction I am making. Using your example, I am trying to say that the sun shining is a factual truth no matter what a person believes.

The sunshining is a verifiable fact. Just look up in the sky.

Your sun example proves my point because if I was to get on the phone with someone on the other side of the earth and say the sun is shining, their denial that the sun is shining does not "make" the fact, nonfactual.  The sun IS shining.

This is not a serious example. They would agree that the sun is shining where you are, just not where they are.

[Rebecca]

Some folks understand His Kingdom like this:
Rom 14:17  For the kingdom of God is not meat and drink; but righteousness, and peace, and joy in the Holy Ghost.

"We're in the messianic era because I feel joy in my heart" is not falsifiable. That also means it is not provable.

Provable to the  believing, unprovable to the heathen.

 Pro_14:12  There is a way which seemeth right unto a man, but the end thereof are the ways of death.

Joh 20:29  Jesus saith unto him, Thomas, because thou hast seen me, thou hast believed: blessed are they that have not seen, and yet have believed. 

Joh_8:17  It is also written in your law, that the testimony of two men is true.

[Fenris]

Provable to the  believing, unprovable to the heathen.

Nothing needs to be "proved" to the "believing". They already "believe". But their "belief" does not make what they believe in either true or factual.

[Fenris]

Kind of an open question for Christians generally, why do you think that because your beliefs are obvious to you, they should be obvious to everyone else? Why do you think that your religious beliefs should constitute facts?

[Rebecca]

Kind of an open question for Christians generally, why do you think that because your beliefs are obvious to you, they should be obvious to everyone else? Why do you think that your religious beliefs should constitute facts?

"Kind of an open question for Christians generally, why do you think that because your beliefs are obvious to you, they should be obvious to everyone else?"

Why do you think all Christians think that?

Why do you think that your religious beliefs should constitute facts?

Facts as to what ? 2+2=4 that is a fact  a fact that has nothing to do with Christianity.   Betting most folks who post in a Christian forum are posting believing the other posters are also believers . Often how one speaks to a similar group is different then to general public. ie Posting differently in open facebook then a Christian Bible Forum.

[Athanasius]

Kind of an open question for Christians generally, why do you think that because your beliefs are obvious to you, they should be obvious to everyone else? Why do you think that your religious beliefs should constitute facts?

Kind of an open question to Jews generally, why do you think that because your beliefs aren't obvious to you, they shouldn't be obvious to everyone else? Why do you think that your religious beliefs shouldn't constitute facts?

[Fenris]

Why do you think all Christians think that?

Because you like to describe your beliefs as being "facts".

[Fenris]

Kind of an open question to Jews generally, why do you think that because your beliefs aren't obvious to you, they shouldn't be obvious to everyone else?

Jews don't, though. I don't expect anyone to find my beliefs obvious.

Why do you think that your religious beliefs shouldn't constitute facts?

I have never presented my beliefs as facts.

[Rebecca]

Why do you think all Christians think that?

Because you like to describe your beliefs as being "facts".

Which posts are you speaking of?

[Fenris]

Which posts are you speaking of?

"Provable to the  believing, unprovable to the heathen."

[Athanasius]

Kind of an open question to Jews generally, why do you think that because your beliefs aren't obvious to you, they shouldn't be obvious to everyone else?

Jews don't, though. I don't expect anyone to find my beliefs obvious.

Why do you think that your religious beliefs shouldn't constitute facts?

I have never presented my beliefs as facts.

I just thought you'd be okay answering for some other Jewish believers I know, or, like, maybe we shouldn't ask less-than-stellar general questions.

[Fenris]

I just thought you'd be okay answering for some other Jewish believers I know, or, like, maybe we shouldn't ask less-than-stellar general questions.

What made the questions "less than stellar"? I'm genuinely curious how people can present their religious beliefs as "facts".