Christian, but not 'Bible-believing'

[Athanasius]

Did Abraham even exist? I believe that he did, but my evidence is subjective- belief in the veracity of the bible.

You're arguing for too much. Does anything exist, or is it just your subjective belief?

In 1931, mathematician and philosopher Kurt Godel formally proved that there are statements in math that are true but unprovable. So yes, there are things that are true and exist independently of the human mind. That doesn't mean that they can ever be proved. (And I do not believe that God's existence is provable, let alone that the correctness of any one religion can be proved.)

We aren't talking about the incompleteness theorum or anything related to it. We aren't talking about whether God's existence can be proved but whether the search for facts is possible.

[Fenris]

You're arguing for too much.

I don't think so.

The things I see around me every day? The people I interact with every day? They exist. People mentioned in a religious text having lived thousands of years ago? Up for grabs.

We aren't talking about the incompleteness theorum or anything related to it. We aren't talking about whether God's existence can be proved but whether the search for facts is possible.

The search for evidence is possible. But facts that would convince a non believer? I think probably not.

[Slug1]

OK, I'm back and read your response here.

Welcome back!

Yes, "a" person or many person's saw Issac as Abraham's son. We have written record of eyewitness account all throughout the Old Testament (and NT concerning Abraham and Issac), that due to that eyewitness account(s) and written record of the many experiences, eyewitness accounts, testimonies, etc... has made truths found all throughout the Old Testament to be "objective" facts/truths for you. Correct? I can assume that you believe ALL written accounts found in the Old Testament as factual and thus produce belief in both your mind and your heart and that you hold faithfully to those truths as objective evidence.

I mean you just said it right there. "you believe ALL written accounts". Yes, I believe that they are all true. But that doesn't make them factual accounts. They are subjective evidence. I didn't see those things happen. I can't use the bible as evidence to a nonbeliever.

Which you would utilize as evidence if speaking to a person who does not believe Abraham was ever led/told by God to do all that he did in obedience to God?

No, I wouldn't. I wouldn't even try. It's not my job to turn the world into believers. At most, it's my job to lead a moral life and perhaps set an example to others.

With that raised, why is written record of the many experiences, eyewitness accounts, testimonies, etc has made truths found all throughout the New Testament to be only "subjective" facts/truths for you?

Because as I explained above, I even take my own bible to be only subjective evidence.

I ask this because you say my salvation is not visible, yet if I was to produce a written record or all my personal experiences concerning how Jesus has changed me, led me and used me, add to this a written record of all my experiences that are witnessed by others and they write testimony of how they have seen change and how they have seen Jesus work in me and through me... why can't such eyewitness account be objective?

There are many problems with this approach. For starters, a person of any faith could say this; I myself say this. God has acted in my life many times and altered the outcome. In some instances, those moments were a true inflection point where a different outcome would have radically changed my life. Would you accept my testimony as evidence of my faith being correct? Why not?

Point to consider, "love" between a man and a woman. That love is completely invisible. If the husband or the wife is to tell you they "love" each other, is that love subjective or objective to you? Initially, the logical answer is the love is subjective because it's just as invisible as salvation. YET, if you are to read a hand written account of what their love has produced, how they held to each other, supported each other through the worst of times, forgave each other of mistakes, defended each other, etc... can or should the love they have for each other become "objective" and you can believe they are actually in love with each other because while the love remains invisible, the evidence OF that love, is visible and accounted for?

Feelings are completely subjective. All we can record is what people do.

If the answer is yes, then why is it that for any Christian, their salvation can ONLY be subjective and any evidence will never result in objective truth?

Because your personal feeling of being "saved" does not objectively mean that you are actually, indeed, saved.

I read through your response the other day a few times now. I have to ask, is there any scripture, or any part of the Bible that you hold in your mind and heart, as believable objective factual truth?

[Fenris]

I read through your response the other day a few times now. I have to ask, is there any scripture, or any part of the Bible that you hold in your mind and heart, as believable objective factual truth?

I believe that my bible is the truth.

But because I have to include that word "believe", I don't think I can use it as evidence or prove that to someone else.

I've had the pleasure of delivering sermons. Sometimes to learned people, and sometimes to people who were not yet believers. In either case, my objective was never to make someone "believe". It was always to share the power of a message from the bible. The listener is free to accept or reject it. They usually seem to like it, though. 

[Athanasius]

I don't think so.

The things I see around me every day? The people I interact with every day? They exist. People mentioned in a religious text having lived thousands of years ago? Up for grabs.

Your evidence here is subjective, too.

The search for evidence is possible. But facts that would convince a non believer? I think probably not.

That a thing is a fact, and that it is compelling, are two different things.

[Fenris]

Your evidence here is subjective, too.

Ahhh John Carpenter. A genius.

That a thing is a fact, and that it is compelling, are two different things.

Yes.

[DavidGYoung]

Returning to the original topic, the way some Christians talk about the Bible, you would be forgiven for thinking that Jesus of Nazareth himself had said something about it.

[Slug1]

I read through your response the other day a few times now. I have to ask, is there any scripture, or any part of the Bible that you hold in your mind and heart, as believable objective factual truth?

I believe that my bible is the truth.

But because I have to include that word "believe", I don't think I can use it as evidence or prove that to someone else.

I've had the pleasure of delivering sermons. Sometimes to learned people, and sometimes to people who were not yet believers. In either case, my objective was never to make someone "believe". It was always to share the power of a message from the bible. The listener is free to accept or reject it. They usually seem to like it, though. 

My question is... is the truth found in "your" Bible, objective truth?

At the end of the day, whether or not truth is believed or not believed, is what God says and what is found in His Word, objective or not objective?

[Fenris]

My question is... is the truth found in "your" Bible, objective truth?

Nope.

At the end of the day, whether or not truth is believed or not believed, is what God says and what is found in His Word, objective or not objective?

In the messianic era, it will be objective. In today's fallen world, it remains subjective.

[Slug1]

In the messianic era, it will be objective. In today's fallen world, it remains subjective.

Subjective because of unbelief in the minds and hearts of mankind or subjective because what God says, isn't truth?

[Fenris]

Subjective because of unbelief in the minds and hearts of mankind

To speak of belief or unbelief already means that it is subjective. Facts are not subject to belief.

or subjective because what God says, isn't truth?

Who gets to determine which of God's words are the truth? Which words are the truth? My Bible? Yours? The Koran? The Book of Mormon? The Bhagavad Gita?

[Fenris]

Why do I mention clarity in the messianic era? Because the events that the bible describe say there will be clarity. For example-

Isaiah 11:  the earth will be full of the knowledge of the LORD as the sea is full of water.

Isaiah 40: the glory of the LORD will be revealed, and all humanity together will see it

Habakkuk 2: For the earth will be filled with the knowledge of the glory of the LORD as the waters cover the sea.

Ezekiel 37: Then the nations will know that I the Lord make Israel holy, when my sanctuary is among them forever.

Now, if my belief is wrong and my bible isn't correct, then obviously none of these things will happen.

[Rebecca]

Some folks understand His Kingdom like this:
Rom 14:17  For the kingdom of God is not meat and drink; but righteousness, and peace, and joy in the Holy Ghost. 

[Fenris]

Some folks understand His Kingdom like this:
Rom 14:17  For the kingdom of God is not meat and drink; but righteousness, and peace, and joy in the Holy Ghost.

"We're in the messianic era because I feel joy in my heart" is not falsifiable. That also means it is not provable.

[Fenris]

Reminds me of a joke.

A man dies without a will and his two sons are squabbling over a particularly valued possession. They go to the village elder and each make their case. They each make good points, and the elder says that he needs a day or two to think about it.

The next day, one of the sons goes to the elder and says that the matter is solved. His father appeared to him in a dream and told him that he was entitled to the valued object. The elder laughed. "If he wanted you to have the object, your father should have appeared to me in a dream."