Christian, but not 'Bible-believing'

[Slug1]

But how did the birth of Issac become "objective" for you, when the element of "seeing" must happen for a truth to go from subjective to objective?

Because a person being born can be seen by others. Your personal feeling of being "saved" is not visible to anyone else, only felt by yourself.

edit: If I don't respond for several days it's due to a road trip, visiting my daughter and travel begins Thursday :-)

Enjoy! We'll continue when you return.

OK, I'm back and read your response here. I'll raise the issue of salvation in a moment.

Yes, "a" person or many person's saw Issac as Abraham's son. We have written record of eyewitness account all throughout the Old Testament (and NT concerning Abraham and Issac), that due to that eyewitness account(s) and written record of the many experiences, eyewitness accounts, testimonies, etc... has made truths found all throughout the Old Testament to be "objective" facts/truths for you. Correct? I can assume that you believe ALL written accounts found in the Old Testament as factual and thus produce belief in both your mind and your heart and that you hold faithfully to those truths as objective evidence. Which you would utilize as evidence if speaking to a person who does not believe Abraham was ever led/told by God to do all that he did in obedience to God?

With that raised, why is written record of the many experiences, eyewitness accounts, testimonies, etc has made truths found all throughout the New Testament to be only "subjective" facts/truths for you?

I ask this because you say my salvation is not visible, yet if I was to produce a written record or all my personal experiences concerning how Jesus has changed me, led me and used me, add to this a written record of all my experiences that are witnessed by others and they write testimony of how they have seen change and how they have seen Jesus work in me and through me... why can't such eyewitness account be objective?

Point to consider, "love" between a man and a woman. That love is completely invisible. If the husband or the wife is to tell you they "love" each other, is that love subjective or objective to you? Initially, the logical answer is the love is subjective because it's just as invisible as salvation. YET, if you are to read a hand written account of what their love has produced, how they held to each other, supported each other through the worst of times, forgave each other of mistakes, defended each other, etc... can or should the love they have for each other become "objective" and you can believe they are actually in love with each other because while the love remains invisible, the evidence OF that love, is visible and accounted for?

If the answer is yes, then why is it that for any Christian, their salvation can ONLY be subjective and any evidence will never result in objective truth?

[Sojourner]

Well, I would hope you agree it doesn't make sense to obey God's commandments unless you first believe He exists

What if one isn't sure, but does it out of caution? Or what if one thinks they're a good idea even if they don't believe in God?

Along the lines of "Christian, but not Bible-believing?"

 "Abram believed the LORD, and it was credited to him as righteousness." Sounds like faith figured in prominently when the covenant was established.

[Sojourner]

It isn't faith that matters, but our actions. However, I suppose this is another one of those instances in which we must agree to disagree...

Given the tragic history of Jewish affliction that culminated in 6 million of them being exterminated, why do Jews continue worshiping and obeying God? Is it simply blind obedience, rather faith in the immutable truth of His promises? I'm sure you're thinking of faith in the context of salvation, but let's not throw the baby out with the bath water.

[Rebecca]

It isn't faith that matters, but our actions. However, I suppose this is another one of those instances in which we must agree to disagree...

Given the tragic history of Jewish affliction that culminated in 6 million of them being exterminated, why do Jews continue worshiping and obeying God? Is it simply blind obedience, rather faith in the immutable truth of His promises? I'm sure you're thinking of faith in the context of salvation, but let's not throw the baby out with the bath water.

The holocaust was unspeakably ugly terrible.
As a religion  Judaism does not  worship the Christian God . Our God has a Son theirs does not.

2Jn 1:9  Whosoever transgresseth, and abideth not in the doctrine of Christ, hath not God. He that abideth in the doctrine of Christ, he hath both the Father and the Son. 
Please look up the context.

[Fenris]

OK, I'm back and read your response here.

Welcome back!

Yes, "a" person or many person's saw Issac as Abraham's son. We have written record of eyewitness account all throughout the Old Testament (and NT concerning Abraham and Issac), that due to that eyewitness account(s) and written record of the many experiences, eyewitness accounts, testimonies, etc... has made truths found all throughout the Old Testament to be "objective" facts/truths for you. Correct? I can assume that you believe ALL written accounts found in the Old Testament as factual and thus produce belief in both your mind and your heart and that you hold faithfully to those truths as objective evidence.

I mean you just said it right there. "you believe ALL written accounts". Yes, I believe that they are all true. But that doesn't make them factual accounts. They are subjective evidence. I didn't see those things happen. I can't use the bible as evidence to a nonbeliever.

Which you would utilize as evidence if speaking to a person who does not believe Abraham was ever led/told by God to do all that he did in obedience to God?

No, I wouldn't. I wouldn't even try. It's not my job to turn the world into believers. At most, it's my job to lead a moral life and perhaps set an example to others.

With that raised, why is written record of the many experiences, eyewitness accounts, testimonies, etc has made truths found all throughout the New Testament to be only "subjective" facts/truths for you?

Because as I explained above, I even take my own bible to be only subjective evidence.

I ask this because you say my salvation is not visible, yet if I was to produce a written record or all my personal experiences concerning how Jesus has changed me, led me and used me, add to this a written record of all my experiences that are witnessed by others and they write testimony of how they have seen change and how they have seen Jesus work in me and through me... why can't such eyewitness account be objective?

There are many problems with this approach. For starters, a person of any faith could say this; I myself say this. God has acted in my life many times and altered the outcome. In some instances, those moments were a true inflection point where a different outcome would have radically changed my life. Would you accept my testimony as evidence of my faith being correct? Why not?

Point to consider, "love" between a man and a woman. That love is completely invisible. If the husband or the wife is to tell you they "love" each other, is that love subjective or objective to you? Initially, the logical answer is the love is subjective because it's just as invisible as salvation. YET, if you are to read a hand written account of what their love has produced, how they held to each other, supported each other through the worst of times, forgave each other of mistakes, defended each other, etc... can or should the love they have for each other become "objective" and you can believe they are actually in love with each other because while the love remains invisible, the evidence OF that love, is visible and accounted for?

Feelings are completely subjective. All we can record is what people do.

If the answer is yes, then why is it that for any Christian, their salvation can ONLY be subjective and any evidence will never result in objective truth?

Because your personal feeling of being "saved" does not objectively mean that you are actually, indeed, saved.

[Fenris]

"Abram believed the LORD, and it was credited to him as righteousness." Sounds like faith figured in prominently when the covenant was established.

I consider this a very out of context use of the verse.

Let's cite it with the previous verse first.

And the LORD took him outside and said, “Now look to the heavens and count the stars, if you are able.” Then He told him, “So shall your offspring be.” Abram believed the LORD, and it was credited to him as righteousness.

Abram believed in a specific promise that God was making to him. That's not the same as believing in God, because if there was no God, who was Abram talking to?

Secondarily, the grammar of the verse is unclear. The verse could also read as Abram was crediting God to be righteous. Lest you ask how this can be possible I will direct you to Genesis 18. When God informs Abraham that He is going to destroy Sodom, what does Abraham say? "Will the Judge of the entire earth not perform justice?" So yes, Abraham does pass judgement on God's actions.

Thirdly, the bible tells us why God chose Abraham, also in Gen 18:

For I have chosen him, so that he will direct his children and his household after him to keep the way of the LORD by doing what is right and just

By doing what is right and just. Not for having faith.

And lastly, I'm going to share a very Jewish concept with you: It's the deed that's important. Not the motive.

[Fenris]

Given the tragic history of Jewish affliction that culminated in 6 million of them being exterminated, why do Jews continue worshiping and obeying God? Is it simply blind obedience, rather faith in the immutable truth of His promises?

What if it's neither of those? What if we serve God simply because it is a privilege to be His servants and to carry out His will in this world?

Our rabbi was giving a sermon a few weeks ago. He told us "We don't have to keep the sabbath. We get to keep the sabbath. We don't have to keep kosher. We get to keep kosher."

None of it is a burden. It's a privilge.

[Fenris]

As a religion  Judaism does not  worship the Christian God . Our God has a Son theirs does not.

Do you believe that Judaism is idolatry?

[Athanasius]

Yes, and back when the covenant with Abraham was made, the voice Abraham heard was just as real as the thicket he saw?

It was real to him. But that's subjective.

What's the "that"?

I think you've realised you'd have to say Abraham didn't act out of faith with the faith/knowledge schema you've established.

[Fenris]

What's the "that"?

I think you've realised you'd have to say Abraham didn't act out of faith with the faith/knowledge schema you've established.

You're not understanding me.

"Subjective" means that it's real to that person even if it isn't real to us. I can even watch someone do something and tell me that they're acting out of faith. But it still doesn't make their faith objective. It's something that the feel.

Suicide bombers blow themselves up out of faith. Does that make their faith objectively real?

[Sojourner]

What if it's neither of those? What if we serve God simply because it is a privilege to be His servants and to carry out His will in this world?

Our rabbi was giving a sermon a few weeks ago. He told us "We don't have to keep the sabbath. We get to keep the sabbath. We don't have to keep kosher. We get to keep kosher."

None of it is a burden. It's a privilge.

Point taken. With regard to faith in God, I guess we'll have to agree to disagree. Different theology, different mindset.

[Rebecca]

As a religion  Judaism does not  worship the Christian God . Our God has a Son theirs does not.

Do you believe that Judaism is idolatry?

I believe you and i had this discussion a while back the answer to your question is , yes.

https://bibleforums.us/index.php?topic=307.msg8316#msg8316

[Fenris]

I believe you and i had this discussion a while back the answer to your question is , yes.

I gotta admit, I find this answer amusing.

[Athanasius]

What's the "that"?

I think you've realised you'd have to say Abraham didn't act out of faith with the faith/knowledge schema you've established.

You're not understanding me.

"Subjective" means that it's real to that person even if it isn't real to us. I can even watch someone do something and tell me that they're acting out of faith. But it still doesn't make their faith objective. It's something that the feel.

Suicide bombers blow themselves up out of faith. Does that make their faith objectively real?

I've read Kierkegaard; I understand what you're saying.

I asked you about Abraham's experience. Did Abraham hear a voice just as he saw a ram in a thicket? Abraham experienced these things in his subjectivity, but that's not what I'm asking. I'm asking if these were things out there, in the world, external to Abraham and existing independently of any human mind. Or, are you supposing that for the whole of his life Abraham believed he heard the voice of the Lord, but he might not have, and coincidentally it guided him his entire life?

[Fenris]

I've read Kierkegaard; I understand what you're saying.

I asked you about Abraham's experience. Did Abraham hear a voice just as he saw a ram in a thicket?

Did Abraham even exist? I believe that he did, but my evidence is subjective- belief in the veracity of the bible.

I'm asking if these were things out there, in the world, external to Abraham and existing independently of any human mind.

In 1931, mathematician and philosopher Kurt Godel formally proved that there are statements in math that are true but unprovable. So yes, there are things that are true and exist independently of the human mind. That doesn't mean that they can ever be proved. (And I do not believe that God's existence is provable, let alone that the correctness of any one religion can be proved.)

Or, are you supposing that for the whole of his life Abraham believed he heard the voice of the Lord

I believe that he heard it. But I can't prove that to you or anyone else.