Matthew 23:35

[Fenris]

There are puns in the Talmud? I thought it was a source of information.

The Talmud contains two categories of information.

The first is legal. It relates logical exposition of what is known based on text from the bible and from other Talmudic writing. This part is considered legally binding.

The second is material added by the redactors to spice up what might otherwise be a very dry text. It contains sermons, stories, puns, and even jokes. None of this is considered binding in any way.

Edit to add: thank you for including this. It proves my point exactly-

מה שמו דבי רבי שילא אמרי שילה שמו שנאמר (בראשית מט, י) עד כי יבא שילה דבי רבי ינאי אמרי ינון שמו שנאמר (תהלים עב, יז) יהי שמו לעולם לפני שמש ינון שמו דבי רבי חנינה אמר חנינה שמו שנאמר (ירמיהו טז, יג) אשר לא אתן לכם חנינה ויש אומרים מנחם בן חזקיה שמו שנאמר (איכה א, טז) כי רחק ממני מנחם משיב נפשי ורבנן אמרי חיוורא דבי רבי שמו שנאמר (ישעיהו נג, ד) אכן חליינו הוא נשא ומכאובינו סבלם ואנחנו חשבנוהו נגוע מוכה אלהים ומעונה
Apropos the Messiah, the Gemara asks: What is his name? The school of Rabbi Sheila says: Shiloh is his name, as it is stated: “Until when Shiloh shall come” (Genesis 49:10). The school of Rabbi Yannai says: Yinnon is his name, as it is stated: “May his name endure forever; may his name continue [yinnon] as long as the sun; and may men bless themselves by him” (Psalms 72:17). The school of Rabbi Ḥanina says: Ḥanina is his name, as it is stated: “For I will show you no favor [ḥanina]” (Jeremiah 16:13). And some say that Menaḥem ben Ḥizkiyya is his name, as it is stated: “Because the comforter [menaḥem] that should relieve my soul is far from me” (Lamentations 1:16). And the Rabbis say: The leper of the house of Rabbi Yehuda HaNasi is his name, as it is stated: “Indeed our illnesses he did bear and our pains he endured; yet we did esteem him injured, stricken by God, and afflicted” (Isaiah 53:4).

These are all puns about the messiah. Do you see how they all tie his name to the name of their school? These are jokes, not serious discourse.

[Sojourner]

There are puns in the Talmud? I thought it was a source of information.

The Talmud contains two categories of information.

The first is legal. It relates logical exposition of what is known based on text from the bible and from other Talmudic writing. This part is considered legally binding.

The second is material added by the redactors to spice up what might otherwise be a very dry text. It contains sermons, stories, puns, and even jokes. None of this is considered binding in any way.

Edit to add: thank you for including this. It proves my point exactly-

מה שמו דבי רבי שילא אמרי שילה שמו שנאמר (בראשית מט, י) עד כי יבא שילה דבי רבי ינאי אמרי ינון שמו שנאמר (תהלים עב, יז) יהי שמו לעולם לפני שמש ינון שמו דבי רבי חנינה אמר חנינה שמו שנאמר (ירמיהו טז, יג) אשר לא אתן לכם חנינה ויש אומרים מנחם בן חזקיה שמו שנאמר (איכה א, טז) כי רחק ממני מנחם משיב נפשי ורבנן אמרי חיוורא דבי רבי שמו שנאמר (ישעיהו נג, ד) אכן חליינו הוא נשא ומכאובינו סבלם ואנחנו חשבנוהו נגוע מוכה אלהים ומעונה
Apropos the Messiah, the Gemara asks: What is his name? The school of Rabbi Sheila says: Shiloh is his name, as it is stated: “Until when Shiloh shall come” (Genesis 49:10). The school of Rabbi Yannai says: Yinnon is his name, as it is stated: “May his name endure forever; may his name continue [yinnon] as long as the sun; and may men bless themselves by him” (Psalms 72:17). The school of Rabbi Ḥanina says: Ḥanina is his name, as it is stated: “For I will show you no favor [ḥanina]” (Jeremiah 16:13). And some say that Menaḥem ben Ḥizkiyya is his name, as it is stated: “Because the comforter [menaḥem] that should relieve my soul is far from me” (Lamentations 1:16). And the Rabbis say: The leper of the house of Rabbi Yehuda HaNasi is his name, as it is stated: “Indeed our illnesses he did bear and our pains he endured; yet we did esteem him injured, stricken by God, and afflicted” (Isaiah 53:4).

These are all puns about the messiah. Do you see how they all tie his name to the name of their school? These are jokes, not serious discourse.

Given my ignorance of the subject matter, I must defer to your understanding.

[Fenris]

Given my ignorance of the subject matter, I must defer to your understanding.

Apropos the Messiah, the Gemara asks: What is his name? The school of Rabbi Sheila says: Shiloh is his name, as it is stated: “Until when Shiloh shall come” (Genesis 49:10). The school of Rabbi Yannai says: Yinnon is his name, as it is stated: “May his name endure forever; may his name continue [yinnon] as long as the sun; and may men bless themselves by him” (Psalms 72:17). The school of Rabbi Ḥanina says: Ḥanina is his name, as it is stated: “For I will show you no favor [ḥanina]” (Jeremiah 16:13).

Puns and puns.

[RabbiKnife]

And I thought baptists were bad….

[Fenris]

And I thought baptists were bad….

Jews are a funny people.

In Exodus 14, when the Hebrews are pinned between the Red Sea and the mighty chariots of Egypt, what do they say? "Woe is us, we're going to die"? "This sucks"? Some choice expletive? Nope.

They said to Moses, “Was it because there were no graves in Egypt that you brought us to the desert to die?"

Humor and sarcasm! At the eleventh hour!

[RabbiKnife]

I’ll be here all week.

Try the veal!

[ProDeo]

And I thought baptists were bad….

Jews are a funny people.

In Exodus 14, when the Hebrews are pinned between the Red Sea and the mighty chariots of Egypt, what do they say? "Woe is us, we're going to die"? "This sucks"? Some choice expletive? Nope.

They said to Moses, “Was it because there were no graves in Egypt that you brought us to the desert to die?"

Humor and sarcasm! At the eleventh hour!

I think it is called unbelief.

Not that I think that I would have done any better.

[ProDeo]

Isa 53 from a Jewish source -

https://www.chabad.org/library/bible_cdo/aid/15984

Reads quite different....

[Fenris]

I think it is called unbelief.

Not that I think that I would have done any better.

If your complaint is that they were human, just like you and I, well...

[Fenris]

Isa 53 from a Jewish source -

Reads quite different....

Your mission is clear. Learn Hebrew and decide which translation is more accurate.

[ProDeo]

I think it is called unbelief.

Not that I think that I would have done any better.

If your complaint is that they were human, just like you and I, well...

Sure thing, if the Lord has chosen the Dutch as His people, similar story I am afraid.

[ProDeo]

Isa 53 from a Jewish source -

Reads quite different....

Your mission is clear. Learn Hebrew and decide which translation is more accurate.

Mission impossible, translations are telling you what the author(s) believe, no matter how hard they try to be objective, because objectivity does not exist.

[Fenris]

Mission impossible, translations are telling you what the author(s) believe, no matter how hard they try to be objective, because objectivity does not exist.

Words, they mean things. If you learn another language, you learn what those other words mean. For example, in Hebrew, the "Mem" prefix means "from", and the Lamed prefix means "for". That has nothing to do with what the translator believes. That's an objective fact.

[ProDeo]

Mission impossible, translations are telling you what the author(s) believe, no matter how hard they try to be objective, because objectivity does not exist.

Words, they mean things. If you learn another language, you learn what those other words mean. For example, in Hebrew, the "Mem" prefix means "from", and the Lamed prefix means "for". That has nothing to do with what the translator believes. That's an objective fact.

In the other thread you called the Exodus story at the Red Sea funny. I called it unbelief. Interpretation is all. Objectivity does not exist.

[Fenris]

In the other thread you called the Exodus story at the Red Sea funny. I called it unbelief. Interpretation is all. Objectivity does not exist.

Oh, come on. Now you're just being ridiculous. We don't disagree on the meaning of the words for the Exodus story. We just disagree on whether what they said was amusing or sinful.