Persecution Of Jews By Christians?

[Athanasius]

You understand I'm speaking from the standpoint of judgment, right? It's only to highlight to God...how the other person acted,

Against you, you only, have I sinned and done what is evil in your sight; so you are right in your verdict and justified when you judge. Psa.51:4

What about Uriah? David murdered him. So to sin against another human being is to sin against our Lord.

You disagreed and now you're agreeing with me -- which is it?

Thanks. The article I read just talked about the excuse for which it happened...a young Jewish man kills a Diplomat after seeing government oppress his people.

What happened to innocent Jews in the aftermath was horrific, but that's pretty much how Jesus' stay on earth went. Except our Lord overcame all their sin against him by rising from death. 😊

Alright, well, the point at which we become divorced from reality is the point at which I leave you to it.

[journeyman]

such sticky territory this, If i'm repelled from the very idea of Jesus by your posts here then does that give me the power to determine your Christianity?

Of course. That's how sound doctrine continues and also how false doctrine arises.

Or lets say its more subtle than being repelled, let's say your posts are not well calibrated to my sensibilities or level of biblical understanding because you answer questions with bible verses that are essentially inscrutable to me and that leads me to conclude that Christianity is vacuous gibberish with no application to modern life much less my life.

That's pretty much how many of the 'teachers" saw the Messiah and his disciples. I think it's amazing how the scribes devoted their lives to learning scripture, but didn't recognize him.

I don't personally blame you for quoting the bible or anything, but we must admit that quotations and pithy statements are not necessarily the height of communicating ideas, sort of like in Enter the Dragon your Christian-ness would seem to some degree to depend on my ability to recognize that you are trying to point out the moon instead of getting me to look at your finger. Just saying even if you aren't doing anything inherently sinful you can be a total failure at leading people towards Christ.

For most, quotations and pithy statements are the height of communicating ideas, because,

in the wisdom of God the world through its wisdom did not know him, God was pleased through the foolishness of what was preached to save those who believe. 1Cor.1:21

You're right , you never said that I just assumed it because like if you weren't then it's really not analogous to any human reaction to getting slapped because God always reacts...seems inconsequential that God/Jesus didn't do anything right then in the moment or for his whole life (which is eternal) because everything the Romans did was judged and the verdict had eternal consequences. It's more like if someone slapped me and I didnt do anything right then, but 50 years later I show up at their deathbed and demand a sincere apology or failing that I slap them.

It wasn't inconsequential to me.

Oh word? So what happened to all of those transgressors that didn't repent and become followers of Jesus? Were they judged & what were the wages of their sins? Was it eternal life or the other thing?

They died in their sins and await final judgment.

It would at least freak them out lol

Apparently not.

What does it even mean to be long suffering as an eternal being? Say "Eternal Oscar" tolerates someone being rude and disrespectful for 70x7 days if I literally always have and always will exist was that a long time?

Longsuffering pertaining to the lifespans of men, as suffering in that enviorment is a long time, but in light of the eternal, you're right, because,

our light affliction, which is but for a moment 2Cor.4:17
And,
the child shall die an hundred years old; but the sinner being an hundred years old shall be accursed. Isa.65:20

So as unpleasant as the mistreatment believers are subjected to is, a hundred years compared to eternity was a drop in the ocean.

Like I could tolerate it until the end of time and still there would be an infinite existence of me not tolerating it...

Not for the person inflicting the damage.

There is only one way to be long suffering as an eternal being and that is to not ever do anything about it, never demand repentance or justice, anything short of that is mathematically insignificant.

Not for God in human form...or for those being comformed to his image.Of course, you're free to assume such suffering as insignificant.

Also all sin costs the same, so what difference does it make? does God not find all sin equally anathema, if he doesn't why does he charge the same price for all sins? The degree of sin is as meaningless a concept as long suffering in relation to God. God in Jesus form or in Ultimate Final form or in Ghost form is really just a bit of sleight of hand because God can only pretend he's not God, You cannot actually kill him, a lifetime of suffering is a dimensionless slice sandwiched between eternities as God. God cannot suffer enough to be an analogy to human suffering because God gets to go be God afterwards, its roleplaying like undercover boss or living like a homeless person for a week so that you can "really understand the plight of the underprivalidged". If God would have died on that cross and stayed dead then I'd call that a sacrifice, short of that its histrionics.

And what do you get to be afterwards?

[journeyman]

You disagreed and now you're agreeing with me -- which is it?

I disagreed that Christians should judge people outside the church. Of course within the church, judgment should be motivated by compassion. Even when someone was excommunicated, it was for their welfare,

that the spirit may be saved in the day of the Lord Jesus. 1Cor.5:5

Alright, well, the point at which we become divorced from reality is the point at which I leave you to it.

I don't know why you think David realizing he sinned against God by murdering Uriah, is being divorced from reality, as the prohibition against murder is one of the 10, but, ok.

[Athanasius]

I disagreed that Christians should judge people outside the church.

But I never said they should.

I don't know why you think David realizing he sinned against God by murdering Uriah, is being divorced from reality, as the prohibition against murder is one of the 10, but, ok.

Divorced from the reality of what we were talking about. We were talking about Nazi propagandizing Luther in light of Luther's anti-semitic writings, and you've wound up talking about Uriah and the sin of murder.

[journeyman]

But I never said they should.

I know, so we agree on this point, yes?

Divorced from the reality of what we were talking about. We were talking about Nazi propagandizing Luther in light of Luther's anti-semitic writings, and you've wound up talking about Uriah and the sin of murder.

Right. So who was the Nazis' atrocities against?

[journeyman]

Btw Oscar Kipling,
Are you a Christian?

[Oscar_Kipling]

Of course. That's how sound doctrine continues and also how false doctrine arises.

I don't understand how this relates because if your actual status as a Christian, that is to say what determines whether you are a Christian or not is whether or not some third party is lead to Christ by you...doctrine is not the only factor here, sound doctrine poorly communicated or poorly received (among other things) makes or breaks a Christian under this paradigm you are describing.

That's pretty much how many of the 'teachers" saw the Messiah and his disciples. I think it's amazing how the scribes devoted their lives to learning scripture, but didn't recognize him.

So, I guess even Jesus didn't meet the criteria of being a Christian...for me I'd say that makes the criteria suspect.

For most, quotations and pithy statements are the height of communicating ideas, because,

in the wisdom of God the world through its wisdom did not know him, God was pleased through the foolishness of what was preached to save those who believe. 1Cor.1:21

lol, nice one.

It wasn't inconsequential to me.

I meant inconsequential to your point, that being that Jesus/God didn't do anything to or about his transgressors because we can take if for granted that they either came to Jesus bent the knee and begged forgiveness or were judged and given the wages of sin or will be judged and given the wages of sin at some point...so unless you are suggesting that they have and will forever get away without repentance or judgement then the mere fact that they were not immediately struck down does not mean that God did nothing about those sins, just that he did nothing in the moment...which again would be akin to me seeking justice for a slap at a later time as opposed to never seeking it. Jesus may have turned the other cheek but he also demands ultimate justice so we cannot have it both ways either God always gets his due in wages or repentance or people get away with sin scott free...which is it?

They died in their sins and await final judgment.

So will Jesus' turn of cheek free them from judgement or will they be weighed and measured? It is my understanding that Jesus turning the cheek does not in itself mean that the sin is forgiven; the offending mortal must beg forgiveness and sin no more (until the next time they sin, which is a whole other bag of tomatoes).

Apparently not.

Did I miss the part of the bible where Jesus straight up jumped down off of the cross because that is not how the story I read went.

Longsuffering pertaining to the lifespans of men, as suffering in that enviorment is a long time, but in light of the eternal, you're right, because,

our light affliction, which is but for a moment 2Cor.4:17
And,
the child shall die an hundred years old; but the sinner being an hundred years old shall be accursed. Isa.65:20

So as unpleasant as the mistreatment believers are subjected to is, a hundred years compared to eternity was a drop in the ocean.

cool, we agree.

Not for the person inflicting the damage.

Sure, but you were pointing out the longsuffering sacrifice that God endured to illustrate your point. That people and God are in entirely different categories in this regard was my point.

Not for God in human form...or for those being comformed to his image.Of course, you're free to assume such suffering as insignificant.

I'm not assuming, this is derived from the proposed attributes of God. Could God have died on the cross never to return because he got stabbed with some spears and beaten up? Was there a risk that God may have died from heat stroke and dehydration never to return? Was it an actual possibility that the creator of the universe could have slumped over and died from blood loss and drifted off into the inky blackness of oblivion forever? or, was this series of events God's perfect plan all along, to have a meat puppet die, then Go to hell and beat up the devil then come back a few days later do a victory lap and then go back to heaven? Could God's plan have failed? When was the last time you thought with tears in your eyes "a part of me died that day.....but 3 days later it came back and i'm fine now"?

If I create a game that I cannot lose under any circumstances is anyone surprised when I become the world Oscarball champion? What significance would such a title hold, would you come to the parade and gush about how amazing a feat it was that I beat everyone at the game that I created and couldn't possibly lose even though I gave every challenger a billion point head start? You can say God was at a disadvantage in human form but the mere fact that we are talking about a being that can take on different forms just illustrates the superhuman, supernatural, incomprehensible power of said being.
 

And what do you get to be afterwards?

Lets go back to the greatest game of all time: Oscarball. If I were to change the rules of Oscarball so that I could lose to another player then it wouldn't be Oscarball because a defining feature of Oscarball is that the Oscar always wins...So you see if it were any other way it would deprive the world of the very game of Oscarball. Does this fact suddenly make the favorite international passtime of Oscarball a fair game? I'd argue it doesn't, the game is the game and it's not fair. Similarly just due to the fact that God is eternal and all powerful, that puts him in a category of things that can't actually make sacrifices or suffer in a manner analogous to humans. Merely because we don't get anything out of a situation where God could die doesn't suddenly mean that a theatrical dramatization of death by the eternal all powerful ruler of all existence now becomes analogous to humans that can actually die and not slap around the devil and come back 3 days later then go back to being Ultimate Form God. God is in a catch 22, he cannot be diminished or injured or maimed or killed or made less perfect by anything and if he could he wouldn't be God, that's just the rules of the game.

[Oscar_Kipling]

Btw Oscar Kipling,
Are you a Christian?

Well, I think that depends on whether or not the things i've said have lead you toward christ or not doesn't it?

[Athanasius]

I know, so we agree on this point, yes?

You tell me, you're the one who disagreed.

Right. So who was the Nazis' atrocities against?

Again, what does this have to do with what we were talking about regarding Luther? The Nazis committed atrocities against very many things, including God.

[journeyman]

[You tell me, you're the one who disagreed.

Ok, lets do it this way,,,here's your quote,

So, the Christian stance says, "No it definitely wasn't us. Oh, our proof? Well, look at how that person acted;

The Christian stance isn't "look at how someone other than me acted." As far as condemnation goes, the law should be pointed at self. Only Jesus could throw a stone, ya know?

Again, what does this have to do with what we were talking about regarding Luther? The Nazis committed atrocities against very many things, including God.

My point is the "very many things" were also committed against God, which doesn't seem to matter to you.

[journeyman]

Well, I think that depends on whether or not the things i've said have lead you toward christ or not doesn't it?

Yes. So how long have you been a Christian?

[Athanasius]

The Christian stance isn't "look at how someone other than me acted." As far as condemnation goes, the law should be pointed at self. Only Jesus could throw a stone, ya know?

I said:

"Christians are the bad PR, as RK put it. There is no 'true Christian', ein Volk ein Kirche ein Gott fallacy to be had here."

You replied:

"I think congregations are made up of believers and unbelievers. Only God knows the difference."

I then replied (in part):

"So, the Christian stance says, "No it definitely wasn't us. Oh, our proof? Well, look at how that person acted; it definitely wasn't us". But why should anyone believe that? And more to the point, are Christians immune from acting unwisely or being wrong, or doing anything any person with agency could possibly do? How is Christian PR in the US going at the moment?"

I'm talking about your suggestion that it's not Christians within the church who are responsible for the bad PR, but unbelievers who claim to be Christian, who only God knows are, in fact, unbelievers. I raised the question: how can we make this claim if only God knows? I suggest that one option, though not without its shortcomings, is to look at how someone acts -- which you agree with, within the context of the church, which is what I was talking about.

My point is the "very many things" were also committed against God, which doesn't seem to matter to you.

We were talking about the bad PR of the church and the role Christians play in turning people away from Jesus, and you've somehow ended up talking about how sin is sin against God. Yeah, okay? It's simply not what we were talking about. I'm telling you what my experience with the church is, and you're talking about Uriah.

[Oscar_Kipling]

Well, I think that depends on whether or not the things i've said have lead you toward christ or not doesn't it?

Yes. So how long have you been a Christian?

i was being cheeky, I actually do not self identify as Christian. is my status  relevant to your assertions?

[journeyman]

I answered this post of yours yesterday, but somehow it got deleted.

I don't understand how this relates because if your actual status as a Christian, that is to say what determines whether you are a Christian or not is whether or not some third party is lead to Christ by you...doctrine is not the only factor here, sound doctrine poorly communicated or poorly received (among other things) makes or breaks a Christian under this paradigm you are describing.

It's not difficult when it's communicated this way,

let us not love with words or speech but with actions and in truth. 1Jn.3:18

then shall thy light rise in obscurity, and thy darkness be as the noonday: Isa.58:10

So, I guess even Jesus didn't meet the criteria of being a Christian...for me I'd say that makes the criteria suspect.

It makes the scribes understanding suspect.

lol, nice one.

It's just apparent...Heb.1:1, Jer.25:4, etc.

I meant inconsequential to your point, that being that Jesus/God didn't do anything to or about his transgressors because we can take if for granted that they either came to Jesus bent the knee and begged forgiveness or were judged and given the wages of sin or will be judged and given the wages of sin at some point...so unless you are suggesting that they have and will forever get away without repentance or judgement then the mere fact that they were not immediately struck down does not mean that God did nothing about those sins, just that he did nothing in the moment...which again would be akin to me seeking justice for a slap at a later time as opposed to never seeking it. Jesus may have turned the other cheek but he also demands ultimate justice so we cannot have it both ways either God always gets his due in wages or repentance or people get away with sin scott free...which is it?

It plainly says the Messiah gives sinners time to turn to God before judgment,

except ye repent, ye shall all likewise perish. Lk.3:13

I gave her space to repent  Rev.2:21

So will Jesus' turn of cheek free them from judgement or will they be weighed and measured? It is my understanding that Jesus turning the cheek does not in itself mean that the sin is forgiven; the offending mortal must beg forgiveness and sin no more (until the next time they sin, which is a whole other bag of tomatoes).

"The next time" is the same as,

they crucify to themselves the Son of God afresh, and put him to an open shame. Heb.6:6

Did I miss the part of the bible where Jesus straight up jumped down off of the cross because that is not how the story I read went.

You missed the part where he left an empty tomb.

Sure, but you were pointing out the longsuffering sacrifice that God endured to illustrate your point. That people and God are in entirely different categories in this regard was my point.

Your point doesn't include the Spirit groaning by reason of our weakness. You seem to think God is without feeling, instead of feeling more deeply.

I'm not assuming, this is derived from the proposed attributes of God. Could God have died on the cross never to return because he got stabbed with some spears and beaten up? Was there a risk that God may have died from heat stroke and dehydration never to return? Was it an actual possibility that the creator of the universe could have slumped over and died from blood loss and drifted off into the inky blackness of oblivion forever? or, was this series of events God's perfect plan all along, to have a meat puppet die, then Go to hell and beat up the devil then come back a few days later do a victory lap and then go back to heaven? Could God's plan have failed? When was the last time you thought with tears in your eyes "a part of me died that day.....but 3 days later it came back and i'm fine now"?

You don't seem to understand that Jesus beat the devil up during his ministry.

If I create a game that I cannot lose under any circumstances is anyone surprised when I become the world Oscarball champion? What significance would such a title hold, would you come to the parade and gush about how amazing a feat it was that I beat everyone at the game that I created and couldn't possibly lose even though I gave every challenger a billion point head start? You can say God was at a disadvantage in human form but the mere fact that we are talking about a being that can take on different forms just illustrates the superhuman, supernatural, incomprehensible power of said being.
 
Lets go back to the greatest game of all time: Oscarball. If I were to change the rules of Oscarball so that I could lose to another player then it wouldn't be Oscarball because a defining feature of Oscarball is that the Oscar always wins...So you see if it were any other way it would deprive the world of the very game of Oscarball. Does this fact suddenly make the favorite international passtime of Oscarball a fair game? I'd argue it doesn't, the game is the game and it's not fair. Similarly just due to the fact that God is eternal and all powerful, that puts him in a category of things that can't actually make sacrifices or suffer in a manner analogous to humans. Merely because we don't get anything out of a situation where God could die doesn't suddenly mean that a theatrical dramatization of death by the eternal all powerful ruler of all existence now becomes analogous to humans that can actually die and not slap around the devil and come back 3 days later then go back to being Ultimate Form God. God is in a catch 22, he cannot be diminished or injured or maimed or killed or made less perfect by anything and if he could he wouldn't be God, that's just the rules of the game.

Nothing stopping anyone from asking to be traded to a better team.

[journeyman]

I said:

"Christians are the bad PR, as RK put it. There is no 'true Christian', ein Volk ein Kirche ein Gott fallacy to be had here."

You replied:

"I think congregations are made up of believers and unbelievers. Only God knows the difference."

I then replied (in part):

"So, the Christian stance says, "No it definitely wasn't us. Oh, our proof? Well, look at how that person acted; it definitely wasn't us". But why should anyone believe that? And more to the point, are Christians immune from acting unwisely or being wrong, or doing anything any person with agency could possibly do? How is Christian PR in the US going at the moment?"

I'm talking about your suggestion that it's not Christians within the church who are responsible for the bad PR, but unbelievers who claim to be Christian, who only God knows are, in fact, unbelievers. I raised the question: how can we make this claim if only God knows? I suggest that one option, though not without its shortcomings, is to look at how someone acts -- which you agree with, within the context of the church, which is what I was talking about.

And the church teaches,

Anyone who hates a brother or sister is a murderer, and you know that no murderer has eternal life residing in him. 1Jn.3:15

It's between God and the individual,

For if our heart condemn us, God is greater than our heart, and knoweth all things. 1Jn.3:20

We were talking about the bad PR of the church and the role Christians play in turning people away from Jesus, and you've somehow ended up talking about how sin is sin against God. Yeah, okay? It's simply not what we were talking about. I'm telling you what my experience with the church is, and you're talking about Uriah.

And I'm saying if your experience is that people in the church sinned against another member, it's no different from Uriah bearing Davids' sin, or Joseph bearing his brothers sins, or the prophets being murdered, except that no excuse can be accepted for sinning against the truly innocent. You understand how Jesus bore the sins of men, yes?