Persecution Of Jews By Christians?

[journeyman]

Except for the NT, I know little of church history. Secondly, I ended the title of this thread with a question mark, as it is unimaginable to me that a follower of our Lord would harm anyone.

Recently, I looked for a reputable source of information on this subject and beliece I found one in the United States Holocaust Memorial Museum (ushmm.) This organization has articles by various historians which describe the persecution of Jewish people by both Catholics and Protestants.

Without detail, what I took away from what I read, is that persecution of Jews by people claiming to follow Jesus began after Christianity became the state religion.

There is also a belief that said persecution (or at least the "seeds" of this hatred began as early as the late 1st century. The reasoning behind this is that in the gospel of John, the accusation of contempt for Jesus isn't confined to certain Jews (such as some religious leaders), but just "the Jews", inferring that all, or most Jews hated Jesus.

Personally, I believe Johns' gospel was originally written in Hebrew, or Aramaic, as his ministry was in Israel. Also, I don't believe John would have broadly described people in that way, but I have no physical evidence to support my disbelief. My sole reason for feeling the way I do is that all of the apostles loved their countrymen.

One other thing I read from ushmm was how Martin Luther began as a supported of Jews, but later wrote disparaging things about them.

Lastly, I do believe evil conduct by people naming our Lord, has kept Jewish people from recognizing Jesus as the Messiah.

[RabbiKnife]

Christians (nominal or otherwise) have persecuted Jews for centuries.

Evil men, regardless of their claimed faith, have never needed and excuse for blaming the Jewish people for all the evil in the world.

[Athanasius]

Without detail, what I took away from what I read, is that persecution of Jews by people claiming to follow Jesus began after Christianity became the state religion.

If not before.

There is also a belief that said persecution (or at least the "seeds" of this hatred began as early as the late 1st century. The reasoning behind this is that in the gospel of John, the accusation of contempt for Jesus isn't confined to certain Jews (such as some religious leaders), but just "the Jews", inferring that all, or most Jews hated Jesus.

Yes, this speaks to the idea that the Romans crucified Jesus but it was the Jews who got him killed (and are therefore to blame).

My sole reason for feeling the way I do is that all of the apostles loved their countrymen.

He did. That doesn't stop the abuse of Scripture.

One other thing I read from ushmm was how Martin Luther began as a supported of Jews, but later wrote disparaging things about them.

The Nazis loved Luther almost as much as Protestants do.

Lastly, I do believe evil conduct by people naming our Lord, has kept Jewish people from recognizing Jesus as the Messiah.

Christians are probably responsible for more rejections of 'Jesus' than any other group in history.

[journeyman]

Christians (nominal or otherwise) have persecuted Jews for centuries.

Yes, but under the leadetship of the apostles, congregations in gentile terriitories had faithful men in charge. It doesn't seem like they would have tolerated a member of the church engaged in criminal behavior.

Evil men, regardless of their claimed faith, have never needed and excuse for blaming the Jewish people for all the evil in the world.

That's true, but I think anyone in the early church doing hateful things toward the Jews would have been excomunicated.

[journeyman]

Yes, this speaks to the idea that the Romans crucified Jesus but it was the Jews who got him killed (and are therefore to blame).

Yes, but the early church understood that while evil men had a plan, the Messiah also had a plan, which was to thwart their plan without raising a fist and be willing to forgive everything done to him. For this reason, it seems impossible that the church would even think about harming the Jews in any way. It doesn't make sense.

He did. That doesn't stop the abuse of Scripture.

I agree. I also remember one instance in the KJV from Deuteronomy where the text was obscured.

The Nazis loved Luther almost as much as Protestants do.

I never heard that, but anyone who would disparage a race is someone who should have his Bible doctrine microscoped.

Christians are probably responsible for more rejections of 'Jesus' than any other group in history.

I don't think that's true in most cases. The early church lost their lives for the good news of the God of the Jews. I'm confident most and quite possibly all of the reasons for rejecting Jesus is the result of non Christian people.

[RabbiKnife]

Christians (nominal or otherwise) have persecuted Jews for centuries.

Yes, but under the leadetship of the apostles, congregations in gentile terriitories had faithful men in charge. It doesn't seem like they would have tolerated a member of the church engaged in criminal behavior.

Evil men, regardless of their claimed faith, have never needed and excuse for blaming the Jewish people for all the evil in the world.

That's true, but I think anyone in the early church doing hateful things toward the Jews would have been excomunicated.

Being anti-semitic is ungodly and stupid, but it hardly criminal. 

I'm not aware of any early church fathers that wrote anything antisemitic.

[RabbiKnife]

Yes, this speaks to the idea that the Romans crucified Jesus but it was the Jews who got him killed (and are therefore to blame).

Yes, but the early church understood that while evil men had a plan, the Messiah also had a plan, which was to thwart their plan without raising a fist and be willing to forgive everything done to him. For this reason, it seems impossible that the church would even think about harming the Jews in any way. It doesn't make sense.

He did. That doesn't stop the abuse of Scripture.

I agree. I also remember one instance in the KJV from Deuteronomy where the text was obscured.

The Nazis loved Luther almost as much as Protestants do.

I never heard that, but anyone who would disparage a race is someone who should have his Bible doctrine microscoped.

Christians are probably responsible for more rejections of 'Jesus' than any other group in history.

I don't think that's true in most cases. The early church lost their lives for the good news of the God of the Jews. I'm confident most and quite possibly all of the reasons for rejecting Jesus is the result of non Christian people.

I would disagree.  In my experience, not only Jews, but also normal human pagans reject Jesus because of the poor example that Christians live than for any other reason.

The church is its own worst enemy and worst PR.

[Oscar_Kipling]

I don't think that's true in most cases. The early church lost their lives for the good news of the God of the Jews. I'm confident most and quite possibly all of the reasons for rejecting Jesus is the result of non Christian people.

I'd be really interested in you expanding upon this idea, that is why are you confident that most - quite possibly all of the reasons for rejecting Jesus is the result of non Christian people?

[journeyman]

Being anti-semitic is ungodly and stupid, but it hardly criminal.

Hating people because of their race is criminal to God, because our Savior said,

whosoever is angry with his brother without a cause shall be in danger of the judgment Mt.5:22

I'm not aware of any early church fathers that wrote anything antisemitic.

It couldn't have happened unless they wandered away from Jesus.

I would disagree.  In my experience, not only Jews, but also normal human pagans reject Jesus because of the poor example that Christians live than for any other reason.

The church is its own worst enemy and worst PR.

The church is the body of believers, not the tares among them.

[journeyman]

I'd be really interested in you expanding upon this idea, that is why are you confident that most - quite possibly all of the reasons for rejecting Jesus is the result of non Christian people?

Because there is nothing to condemn, for those who walk by the Spirit,

We know that we have passed from death to life, because we love each other. Anyone who does not love remains in death. 1Jn.3:14

[Oscar_Kipling]

I'd be really interested in you expanding upon this idea, that is why are you confident that most - quite possibly all of the reasons for rejecting Jesus is the result of non Christian people?

Because there is nothing to condemn, for those who walk by the Spirit,

We know that we have passed from death to life, because we love each other. Anyone who does not love remains in death. 1Jn.3:14

perhaps i'm reading this incorrectly, are you saying that Christians (that is people who walk by the spirit) do not ever engage in any behaviors that may cause harm to other people or otherwise condemnable behavior? Can a person be a Christian and also perhaps lash out in anger in a high stress moment and say something that emotionally wounds another person? I guess its not clear to me if you are suggesting that Christians are people who no longer fall victim to the same sorts of damaging human foibles and weaknesses that the rest of us do.

[Athanasius]

Yes, but the early church understood that while evil men had a plan, the Messiah also had a plan, which was to thwart their plan without raising a fist and be willing to forgive everything done to him. For this reason, it seems impossible that the church would even think about harming the Jews in any way. It doesn't make sense.

Well, no matter how you got to the end of your thoughts, anti-Jewish sentiment, as far as I'm aware, largely began developing in the 4th century. Before that, going back to the earliest Christian communities, there was no serious anti-Jewishness to speak of.  So no, it doesn't make sense and as far as I'm aware we don't see it within Christian communities for at least a couple of hundred of years.

I agree. I also remember one instance in the KJV from Deuteronomy where the text was obscured.

Yeah 22:5, that was me though.

I never heard that, but anyone who would disparage a race is someone who should have his Bible doctrine microscopes.

It's worth a look into Luther's anti-Semitic writings. And 'interesting' things like the Kristallnacht happening on Luther's birthday, the Nazi celebration of Luther's 450th birthday with a 'German Luther day', and so on.

For example, https://www.facinghistory.org/resource-library/image/nazi-propaganda-depicting-martin-luther

I don't think that's true in most cases. The early church lost their lives for the good news of the God of the Jews. I'm confident most and quite possibly all of the reasons for rejecting Jesus is the result of non Christian people.

Take it from someone who the church has nearly entirely alienated, a church filled with Godly well meaning devout Christians ----------------------- Christians are the bad PR, as RK put it. There is no 'true Christian', ein Volk ein Kirche ein Gott fallacy to be had here.

[journeyman]

perhaps i'm reading this incorrectly, are you saying that Christians (that is people who walk by the spirit) do not ever engage in any behaviors that may cause harm to other people or otherwise condemnable behavior?

No. What I meant was, when professing Christians do bad things, it's because they're not following our Lord.

Can a person be a Christian and also perhaps lash out in anger in a high stress moment and say something that emotionally wounds another person?

Yes. We know that James and John wanted to kill the adversaries by calling fire down on them. They needed to learn and boy did they learn.

I guess its not clear to me if you are suggesting that Christians are people who no longer fall victim to the same sorts of damaging human foibles and weaknesses that the rest of us do.

Well, we're being made into the image of the Messiah, who showed the heart he and his Father have for sinners.

I would like to ask you Oscar Kipling, how you would respond in Jesus' place, to someone who slapped you in the face? I find it mind blowing how our Creator endured all that sin against himself, without vengeance.
 

[journeyman]

Well, no matter how you got to the end of your thoughts, anti-Jewish sentiment, as far as I'm aware, largely began developing in the 4th century. Before that, going back to the earliest Christian communities, there was no serious anti-Jewishness to speak of.  So no, it doesn't make sense and as far as I'm aware we don't see it within Christian communities for at least a couple of hundred of years.

I think you're right. I think it took some time to wander away from the truth.

Yeah 22:5, that was me though.

The one I was talking about is Deu.32:43. Iwas reading Heb.1:6 and looked for the citation but couldn't find it. I finally found it in the Septuagint, which I've heard is the text that 1st century Jews used.

It's worth a look into Luther's anti-Semitic writings. And 'interesting' things like the Kristallnacht happening on Luther's birthday, the Nazi celebration of Luther's 450th birthday with a 'German Luther day', and so on.

For example, https://www.facinghistory.org/resource-library/image/nazi-propaganda-depicting-martin-luther

Take it from someone who the church has nearly entirely alienated, a church filled with Godly well meaning devout Christians ----------------------- Christians are the bad PR, as RK put it. There is no 'true Christian', ein Volk ein Kirche ein Gott fallacy to be had here.

Thanks. I'll look at the information you provided.
I think congregations are made up of believers and unbelievers. Only God knows the difference.

[Oscar_Kipling]

No. What I meant was, when professing Christians do bad things, it's because they're not following our Lord.

Well, not to be a Nitpicking Nancy, but is a Christian that does something bad immediately transformed into a non-Christian until they ask for forgiveness...because like this sort of just defines Christians out of the possibility of ever doing anything wrong without accepting responsibility for the wrongs that Christians can perpetrate...that is you can say well 21 minutes ago I was a Christian, but 20 minutes ago when I kicked grandma down the stairs I was a non-Christian but 19 minutes ago I sincerely repentented and am Christian again...like technically within this paradigm no Christian did anything wrong but like only technically.

Yes. We know that James and John wanted to kill the adversaries by calling fire down on them. They needed to learn and boy did they learn.

So when they had these impure thoughts they were still Christians or no?

I would like to ask you Oscar Kipling, how you would respond in Jesus' place, to someone who slapped you in the face? I find it mind blowing how our Creator endured all that sin against himself, without vengeance.

If I had a nickel for every time i've been slapped and a dime for every reaction I've had to said slap i'd have enough money to buy a 2 liter cherry vanilla coke if it was on sale. Anyway I can say that I never drowned every organism on earth save for one family and 2 of every kind of animal, I never destroyed a town or turned anyone into a salt pillar, I never genocided whole peoples or brought multiple plagues upon a country and I haven't killed a single first born son, I never made anyone wander in the wilderness ...you get the point, just saying God has been pretty temperamental at times and so have I, but in a game of never have I ever with the creator of the universe I think I'd come out looking like the more eventempered of the 2.