What Makes A Person Jewish?

[journeyman]

In another thread, Fenris said (some) Christians have been haters of other people and this could determine if that person was a real Christian.
Does conduct have any bearing on whether someone is Jewish?

[RabbiKnife]

Matzoh tolerance...

[Athanasius]

Of course. Claiming to believe X while living as if Y were true is a good indication of what someone really believes (Y, not X).

[Fenris]

Does conduct have any bearing on whether someone is Jewish?

No.

Someone is Jewish under Jewish law if their mother is Jewish, or if they follow a proper conversion.

There is no opt-out clause. Jews can be good or bad, religiously observant or not. They can be lapsed and heretical. But in all cases they remain Jews.

[Athanasius]

Does conduct have any bearing on whether someone is Jewish?

No.

Someone is Jewish under Jewish law if their mother is Jewish, or if they follow a proper conversion.

There is no opt-out clause. Jews can be good or bad, religiously observant or not. They can be lapsed and heretical. But in all cases they remain Jews.

Jews religiously and genealogical, or one or the other? There's no concept in Judaism of total apostasy?

[Fenris]

Jews religiously and genealogical, or one or the other? There's no concept in Judaism of total apostasy?

A Jewish person can be a total apostate. But they're still Jewish. There's no opt out clause, not in the bible and not in Jewish law.

[Athanasius]

Interesting, I suppose then that a certainly religion that speaks of 'reversions' instead of 'conversations' borrowed from that.

[journeyman]

Someone is Jewish under Jewish law if their mother is Jewish,

I've heard that. In response, one guy said it could be either parent. or just the father. His reasoning was that if it's only the mother, then some tribes aren't Jewish because Jacobs' 2 concubines weren't Jewish.

or if they follow a proper conversion.

Does a gentile have to follow some perscribed conduct or ritual to become Jewish?

There is no opt-out clause. Jews can be good or bad, religiously observant or not. They can be lapsed and heretical. But in all cases they remain Jews.

Some people believe that of Christians also.

[Fenris]

I've heard that. In response, one guy said it could be either parent. or just the father. His reasoning was that if it's only the mother, then some tribes aren't Jewish because Jacobs' 2 concubines weren't Jewish.

According to standard Jewish law, it has to be the mother. Jacob's concubines were as Jewish as his wives were.

Does a gentile have to follow some perscribed conduct or ritual to become Jewish?

Being as Judaism is a rules-based religion, someone desiring to convert to Judaism must engage in a course of study to be proficient in everyday Jewish law. The course of study typically takes a year or more to accomplish.

Some people believe that of Christians also.

I see.

[journeyman]

According to standard Jewish law, it has to be the mother. Jacob's concubines were as Jewish as his wives were.

I never bothered to look it up, but since my last post, all I could find was that Bilhah and Zilpah were Labans servants. The Bible doesn't say if they were Jewish or not.

Being as Judaism is a rules-based religion, someone desiring to convert to Judaism must engage in a course of study to be proficient in everyday Jewish law. The course of study typically takes a year or more to accomplish.

Ok. So does this mean that, like Jews, converting gentiles don't have to live by what they've learned to be Jewish?

I see.

I should have clarified that certain proffessing Christians believe that a Christian can live without repentance. I didn't mean to suggest people of other faiths view Christianity that way.

[Fenris]

I never bothered to look it up, but since my last post, all I could find was that Bilhah and Zilpah were Labans servants. The Bible doesn't say if they were Jewish or not.

And Rachel and Leah were Laban's daughters. The bible doesn't say whether they were Jewish or not either. However, as all 12 tribes are given equal standing and equal responsibilities, one can assume that all of Jacob's wives were Jewish. Presumably by conversion.

Ok. So does this mean that, like Jews, converting gentiles don't have to live by what they've learned to be Jewish?

I am sorry, I don't understand this question.

I should have clarified that certain proffessing Christians believe that a Christian can live without repentance. I didn't mean to suggest people of other faiths view Christianity that way.

OK

[journeyman]

And Rachel and Leah were Laban's daughters. The bible doesn't say whether they were Jewish or not either. However, as all 12 tribes are given equal standing and equal responsibilities, one can assume that all of Jacob's wives were Jewish. Presumably by conversion.

Ok. Abraham ordered his servant to get Isaac a wife from his kinsmen, so maybe the whole family of Abrahams brother converted.

I am sorry, I don't understand this question.

I'm asking, why do gentiles who want to convert have to engage in a course of study to be proficient in everyday Jewish law, when to be a Jew, you yourself wiouldn't have to?

[Fenris]

Ok. Abraham ordered his servant to get Isaac a wife from his kinsmen, so maybe the whole family of Abrahams brother converted.

There's no reason to believe that from the text. It seems more rather that Abraham didn't want his son marrying into a cursed people.

Gen 24

Abraham was now a very old man, and the Lord had blessed him in every way. One day Abraham said to his oldest servant, the man in charge of his household, “Take an oath by putting your hand under my thigh. Swear by the Lord, the God of heaven and earth, that you will not allow my son to marry one of these local Canaanite women. Go instead to my homeland, to my relatives, and find a wife there for my son Isaac.”


Cross reference with Gen 9

When Noah awoke from his wine and found out what his youngest son had done to him, he said, “Cursed be Canaan! The lowest of slaves will he be to his brothers.”

I'm asking, why do gentiles who want to convert have to engage in a course of study to be proficient in everyday Jewish law, when to be a Jew, you yourself wiouldn't have to?

Who says I don't have to? Of course I have to. Every Jew is expected to know biblical law and follow it.

[Athanasius]

Of course I have to. Every Jew is expected to know biblical law and follow it.

He's asking? saying? pointing out? that a gentile who wanted to become a Jew has to be actively practising, while a Jew who doesn't want to be a Jew is a Jew regardless.

[Fenris]

He's asking? saying? pointing out? that a gentile who wanted to become a Jew has to be actively practising, while a Jew who doesn't want to be a Jew is a Jew regardless.

Just because some Jews don't live up to God's expectation of them under the Sinai covenant doesn't mean we should allow people to convert who will also not live up to God's expectation of them as Jews.

Mind you, one doesn't have to be Jewish to be good with God. In Jewish belief, a gentile who lives a moral life is fine by God. It's actually more difficult to get good with God as a Jew than as a gentile because there are so many more rules to follow.