Seeing is believing?

[Oscar_Kipling]

it's not about whether or not some Christians might deny it, people could just as easily claim that there are undetected Jews somewhere.

As I've said, I'm sure there are undetected Sumerians or Hittites somewhere. But they no longer exist as a people.

Well, I don't see why there cannot be a paranoid assertion that these undetected Jews are secretly still a people that are secretly pulling the strings of martian government behind the scenes...people say all sorts things about jews, worse still they actually believe many of even the most outrageous things...point is that people be saying stuff.

If  the earth is completely destroyed by giant space rocks or strangelets or a ronin black hole,

This is very imaginative. I like it!

haha, thanks!

I'd argue Jesus cannot come back and go to the places and do the stuff that is claimed in the bible so that would meet your standard of falsification for both Judaism and Christianity, just no one would be around to debate it. If you find that unpalatable then we could spend time constructing a scenario where there is a thriving antiemetic mars colony when the earth is destroyed or something. These jew-hating martian people could surely make assertions about the possibility of secret jewish moon bases or space stations or about Jesus using his powers to reconstitute the earth or that the asteroid was Jesus and that actually fulfilled the ancient prophecies... The long and short is that in principle a destroyed earth would falsify both, which was all to point out that this whole exercise, at least as you've presented it doesn't provide us with anything of pragmatic use most glaringly it does not provide a way to epistemologically distinguish Judaism and Christianity from each other even in principle, like trading 6 giant chicken eggs for a half dozen jumbo gallus ovum.

Ok, how about Jeremiah 31?

This is what the Lord says,

he who appoints the sun
    to shine by day,
who decrees the moon and stars
    to shine by night,
who stirs up the sea
    so that its waves roar—
    the Lord Almighty is his name:
 “Only if these decrees vanish from my sight,”
    declares the Lord,
“will Israel ever cease
    being a nation before me.”

So, i'm no bibliographer, so my interpretations of bible things are generally unsophisticated, but  by my calculations these verses indicate that the disappearance of israel and/or the Jews could also fail to meet falsification conditions depending on one's interpretation of this verse...so like, yeah what are you saying with this verse....happy fourth!

[Fenris]

Well, I don't see why there cannot be a paranoid assertion that these undetected Jews are secretly still a people that are secretly pulling the strings of martian government behind the scenes...

People having paranoid fantasies doesn't make it so, or that would mean that lizard people also exist and are secretly controlling things.

So, i'm no bibliographer, so my interpretations of bible things are generally unsophisticated, but  by my calculations these verses indicate that the disappearance of israel and/or the Jews could also fail to meet falsification conditions depending on one's interpretation of this verse..

The verse says the Jewish people will always exist. Should there be no more Jews, the verse will be proven wrong.

so like, yeah what are you saying with this verse....happy fourth!

And  to you. Enjoy!

[Oscar_Kipling]

Well, I don't see why there cannot be a paranoid assertion that these undetected Jews are secretly still a people that are secretly pulling the strings of martian government behind the scenes...

People having paranoid fantasies doesn't make it so, or that would mean that lizard people also exist and are secretly controlling things.

Yeah that's kind of my whole point, You said Christians could/would assert that Jesus may swing by at a later date, and I added that they could say he'll come to Mars or reconstitute the earth after its destruction, but all of these things are beside the point that in principle if the earth and all of its people are destroyed that would falsify both Christianity and Judaism. Unless you are asserting that the complete destruction of the planet earth prior to the return of the king would not falsify christianity then we have no conflict on this point. Perhaps we disagree that this puts judaism and christianity on equal footing, that is  this falsification condition you've proposed for judaism is not in principle equivalent to the one i've proposed for Christianity, in which case i'd ask why not (bearing in mind that we agree that what christians might say has no bearing on anything)? If you agree that they are equivalent then perhaps we disagree on the utility of this condition, in which case i'd ask what it explains or tells us about God or Judaism or Christianity? If you also agree that it tells us nothing of any consequence and provides no means of distinguishing Judaism from Christianity then we are in agreement on this point and I'd like to move on to ask if you believe there are more pragmatic and useful areas of falsification in Judaism  similar to the one I pointed out within Christianity in Matthew? I think that my Matthew example is of actual practical value and is a far more fertile ground to discuss notions of abrahamic religions' susceptibility to scientific/logical interrogation.

The verse says the Jewish people will always exist. Should there be no more Jews, the verse will be proven wrong.

well, okay yep that is essentially what I took it to mean too, If the earth and all of its people are destroyed then Judaism is false and so is Christianity. If we agree then I'd like to move on to my other point that this is true but useless, however there are other areas amenable to falsification that actually does influence the truth value of these religions and as such are areas that are voraciously defended via apology and the like because they threaten to veraciously vitiate the verisimilitudinous vagueness that vivifies the validity & veracity of the various values & virtues of their venerated devine visage. I just watched V for Vendetta lol. Anyway I just mean that the falsification condition you present keeps us for all practical purposes in the realm of "stuff we can't actually reasonably or ethically test, but still allows for you to claim that in principle Judaism is falsifiable". Seems again like one of those sleights of hand that I like to accuse religious folks of employing, I'd like to know if you believe that all falsification of Judaism must fall in this category, If so then do you find this to be even the slightest bit suspicious?

so like, yeah what are you saying with this verse....happy fourth!
[/quote]And  to you. Enjoy!
[/quote]

Thanks!

[Fenris]

Yeah that's kind of my whole point, You said Christians could/would assert that Jesus may swing by at a later date, and I added that they could say he'll come to Mars or reconstitute the earth after its destruction, but all of these things are beside the point that in principle if the earth and all of its people are destroyed that would falsify both Christianity and Judaism.

Judaism can be falsified without the earth's total destruction though. No Jews means God did not fulfill His promises and hence Judaism is proved wrong.

I'd like to move on to ask if you believe there are more pragmatic and useful areas of falsification in Judaism  similar to the one I pointed out within Christianity in Matthew? I think that my Matthew example is of actual practical value and is a far more fertile ground to discuss notions of abrahamic religions' susceptibility to scientific/logical interrogation.

I am not a Christian and am not equipped to defend the premise that you're raising. 

well, okay yep that is essentially what I took it to mean too, If the earth and all of its people are destroyed then Judaism is false and so is Christianity.

And probably every other religion. Except perhaps Hinduism. (Everyone has been reincarnated as something not human).

If we agree then I'd like to move on to my other point that this is true but useless, however there are other areas amenable to falsification that actually does influence the truth value of these religions and as such are areas that are voraciously defended via apology and the like because they threaten to veraciously vitiate the verisimilitudinous vagueness that vivifies the validity & veracity of the various values & virtues of their venerated devine visage. I just watched V for Vendetta lol. Anyway I just mean that the falsification condition you present keeps us for all practical purposes in the realm of "stuff we can't actually reasonably or ethically test, but still allows for you to claim that in principle Judaism is falsifiable". Seems again like one of those sleights of hand that I like to accuse religious folks of employing, I'd like to know if you believe that all falsification of Judaism must fall in this category, If so then do you find this to be even the slightest bit suspicious?

All falsification must fall into what category? There's no sleight of hand.

[Oscar_Kipling]

Yeah that's kind of my whole point, You said Christians could/would assert that Jesus may swing by at a later date, and I added that they could say he'll come to Mars or reconstitute the earth after its destruction, but all of these things are beside the point that in principle if the earth and all of its people are destroyed that would falsify both Christianity and Judaism.

Judaism can be falsified without the earth's total destruction though. No Jews means God did not fulfill His promises and hence Judaism is proved wrong.

nope, you're right no need to destroy the earth, just a complete and utter genocide. From my standpoint Christianity nor Judaism require anything as drastic as the destruction of the earth or even mere genocide, I just used it because it was another practically and ethically untestable proposition like the genocide of the jewish people the you put forth as a falsification condition.  It would be sort of like if I proposed that I would gain the ability to see the future if all the dust bunnies were removed from underneath every couch in the world, technically falsifiable but practically untestable and says nothing about the truth value of my claim about my psychic powers or a more relevant  absurd example would be if physicists were proposing that general relativity is falsifiable only by bringing a black hole into the solar system and letting the earth fall into it. There are scientific propositions whose falsification conditions are as unattainable as my example but good scientists don't go around touting this "technical falsifiability" as bolstering the veracity of the proposition, in fact without actual observations much less actual proposed achievable experiments you are unlikely to find scientists willing to call it anything more than an interesting hypothesis if that. The long and short is that the falsification condition you've presented does nothing to substantiate the veracity of judaism and nothing to distinguish it from Christianity in regards to its falsifiability.

I'd like to move on to ask if you believe there are more pragmatic and useful areas of falsification in Judaism  similar to the one I pointed out within Christianity in Matthew? I think that my Matthew example is of actual practical value and is a far more fertile ground to discuss notions of abrahamic religions' susceptibility to scientific/logical interrogation.

I am not a Christian and am not equipped to defend the premise that you're raising. 

That's fine i'm not asking you to, I'm asking if the total annihilation of the jewish people is the only and or most practical falsification condition that you can propose for judaism or is there anything that stands an actual chance of being investigated?

well, okay yep that is essentially what I took it to mean too, If the earth and all of its people are destroyed then Judaism is false and so is Christianity.

And probably every other religion. Except perhaps Hinduism. (Everyone has been reincarnated as something not human).

If we agree then I'd like to move on to my other point that this is true but useless, however there are other areas amenable to falsification that actually does influence the truth value of these religions and as such are areas that are voraciously defended via apology and the like because they threaten to veraciously vitiate the verisimilitudinous vagueness that vivifies the validity & veracity of the various values & virtues of their venerated devine visage. I just watched V for Vendetta lol. Anyway I just mean that the falsification condition you present keeps us for all practical purposes in the realm of "stuff we can't actually reasonably or ethically test, but still allows for you to claim that in principle Judaism is falsifiable". Seems again like one of those sleights of hand that I like to accuse religious folks of employing, I'd like to know if you believe that all falsification of Judaism must fall in this category, If so then do you find this to be even the slightest bit suspicious?

All falsification must fall into what category? There's no sleight of hand.
[/quote]

The category is "stuff we can't actually practically or ethically test, but still allows for you to claim that in principle Judaism is falsifiable".

[RabbiKnife]

But at the end of the day, after we dance around the fire and howl at the moon, isn't the real issue the fact that we are hypothesizing about ways in which to avoid discussing the real issue.

Each of us, Christian, Jew, or none, has to answer this question:  Is there a God, and the binary decisions behind that question?
If the answer is "yes," then what are the implications of a "yes," answer, and if the answer is "no," then what are the implication of a "no" answer?

Faith or lack of faith, belief or lack of belief, is not a test-tube experiment performed in the lab or an Einsteinian thought experiment.

Belief or lack thereof is the core of humanity, that which separates us from other primates.

[Fenris]

nope, you're right no need to destroy the earth, just a complete and utter genocide.

First of all, which has been attempted several times in history.  Second, it needn't come to that. As I've already said, many peoples have been lost to history. Do I have to go down the list again?

The long and short is that the falsification condition you've presented does nothing to substantiate the veracity of judaism and nothing to distinguish it from Christianity in regards to its falsifiability.

You keep saying this, and I explain why it's not so, and you say it again anyway.

That's fine i'm not asking you to, I'm asking if the total annihilation of the jewish people is the only and or most practical falsification condition that you can propose for judaism or is there anything that stands an actual chance of being investigated?

The issue isn't whether or not it can be investigated, it's whether or not it is possible.

The category is "stuff we can't actually practically or ethically test, but still allows for you to claim that in principle Judaism is falsifiable".

That's still kind of a big deal. And anyway, as I've said, it's not like it hasn't been tried.

[Fenris]

Belief or lack thereof is the core of humanity, that which separates us from other primates.

Which is not, by itself an argument in favor of or against religion.

I think perhaps the most important reason for the creation of humanity is for us to have to opportunity exercise our free will and thus give our existence meaning. If this is true then it has to be possible to believe in anything, including nothing at all.

[Athanasius]

Belief or lack thereof is the core of humanity, that which separates us from other primates.

Which is not, by itself an argument in favor of or against religion.

I think perhaps the most important reason for the creation of humanity is for us to have to opportunity exercise our free will and thus give our existence meaning. If this is true then it has to be possible to believe in anything, including nothing at all.

"I know I believe in nothing but it is my nothing"

I think perhaps the most important reason for our creation is to share in existence. The terrible weight of freedom is included in that (free will).

[Oscar_Kipling]

nope, you're right no need to destroy the earth, just a complete and utter genocide.

First of all, which has been attempted several times in history.  Second, it needn't come to that. As I've already said, many peoples have been lost to history. Do I have to go down the list again?

Okay yes, I was being cheeky with the genocide point because I was attempting to illustrate how drastic your proposition is for rhetorical purposes, but to be fair you have actually made it clear that there are many ways for a people to become extinct. Not for nothing, prior to 1948 there had been no nation of israel for hundreds of years, but this apparently does not constitute a falsifying condition so there is a drastic & permanent aspect to your proposition that has to be kept in mind when talking about your point.

You keep saying this, and I explain why it's not so, and you say it again anyway.

Okay, lets walk through this. You asserted that Judaism is falsifiable and Christianity is not, but you do not disagree that if the earth is destroyed that Christianity is falsified. This means that this assertion has been soundly invalidated and Judaism is not uniquely falsifiable in contrast to Christianity. Additionally the possibility of the complete elimination of the jewish people and the complete destruction of the earth are neither things that tell us anything about the truth of either religion, we cannot claim that since the earth exists therefore Jesus is going to come back, nor can we say that since the Jews have not been eliminated to date then the promise that God made to them is valid because the fulfillment of such promises  are both contingent on a future that maintains the status quo of no existential calamity which we cannot speak to. so, I don't think that you have given an explanation for why the extinction of the jewish people is a falsification condition that distinguishes judaism from christianity or justified any notion that it proves that the promises of God have been fulfilled because there is still time for the jews to disappear just like at least some "peoples" that exist now will probably become extinct in the future because time isn't over yet.

The issue isn't whether or not it can be investigated, it's whether or not it is possible.

If the mere ability to postulate a set of conditions that would in principle allow for the falsification of a religion whether or not it is possible to actually test it is the baseline then again I say sure this is fine,but it is just as possible for Christianity as it is for judaism and in principle it can be done for almost any other ideas floating around out there. You can have this cake but you cannot use it to distinguish Judaism from Christianity or from String Theory for that matter.  My problem with the impracticality of experimentally testing this isn't in my disappointment with the fact that propositions like this exist, it's in the fact that many religions and religious thought and theologians seem to live here exclusively imo precisely because there is little chance that they can be challenged here. Even still If this were just the nature of religion then it would be something that I would just have to accept, however I believe that there are many examples and areas where Judaism and Christianity are vulnerable to falsifiability but those areas are those that are patched over and handwaved away with apologies and or assertions of revelation or mystical requirements to read the text with your spirit or some other reason why the words on the page are not obviously and plainly in conflict with reality because the "real" meaning of the words are inaccessible or incomprehensible to the human mind or any of the investigative tools humans have developed. So...yeah it all looks like sleight of hand, it looks exactly like the methods used by pseudoscientists and religious/spiritual charlatans ,Deepak chopra uses the very same methods to place some of his quantum-quasi-spiritual gibberish just outside of the ability of anyone to employ a practical test for his nonsense. He's a liar though, and I think you actually believe what you say, and there are thousands of years of this legerdemain that informs your position which is why it's not really conceivable to you that what you are doing is practically indistinguishable. Anyway maybe i'm wrong, why is it different?

That's still kind of a big deal. And anyway, as I've said, it's not like it hasn't been tried.

If it's a big deal for judaism then why isn't it an equally big deal for Christianity and big bang cosmology because falsification conditions as you've laid them out for judaism are just as possible for all of those things too.

[Oscar_Kipling]

But at the end of the day, after we dance around the fire and howl at the moon, isn't the real issue the fact that we are hypothesizing about ways in which to avoid discussing the real issue.

Each of us, Christian, Jew, or none, has to answer this question:  Is there a God, and the binary decisions behind that question?
If the answer is "yes," then what are the implications of a "yes," answer, and if the answer is "no," then what are the implication of a "no" answer?

Faith or lack of faith, belief or lack of belief, is not a test-tube experiment performed in the lab or an Einsteinian thought experiment.

Belief or lack thereof is the core of humanity, that which separates us from other primates.

Why is "I don't know" not the most prominent option in this area where there is clearly incomplete information. If i'm in a windowless room , why must I decide that it is either Day or Night just because it actually is either day or night? Even if there are implications based on the time of day these implications do not provide additional information that would allow me to distinguish between night and day.

Many religious folks like to say that it's not about determining the truth in a scientific way, but none of you really act like it isn't except when it allows you to maintain your cherished religious beliefs. Many of you seem perfectly happy to employ math and statistics and reason and the scientific method when it can be deployed to rebut ideas that threaten your beliefs, or can be used to bolster some religious interpretation of this or that thing. It is all very inconsistent, If I say that religious people reject reason then 50 christians pop up to talk about how belief in God can be justified through reason and logic, If I then ask what those logical reasons are 50 will pop up to tell me about how its about mystical spiritual connection and reevaluation, If I criticise the idea that faith is just believing what you want to believe because you want to then 50 will pop up to tell me how their faith is reasonable and logical....and around and around and then inevitably there will be a level headed wizened guy like you with a post like this here to propose this artificial binary. if one thing has become clear to me after all these years is that real Christians, people that legitimately believe they have a relationship with the living God Jesus Christ do not agree on what that means, how one gets there and what results from it. maybe its not a test tube, maybe its an arena or maybe its a battleground but I gotta tell you nothing rings more false than you asserting that calling it a simple yes or no means anything of consequence.

[Fenris]

"I know I believe in nothing but it is my nothing"

"This video is not available in your country " 

I think perhaps the most important reason for our creation is to share in existence. The terrible weight of freedom is included in that (free will).

Freedom isn't a terrible weight. It is glorious!

[Arikel88]

Seeing is believing but having believing with out seeing is pure faith and we need that more than ever.

[fluffly_ming]

Absolutely, the notion that "seeing is believing" often clashes with spiritual or divine matters. The argument that proof of God's existence would automatically lead to belief overlooks the nature of faith itself. Faith transcends empirical evidence and operates beyond mere sensory perception.

The Apostle Paul, in Romans 1:19-20, highlights how the very creation around us testifies to the existence and divine nature of God. The intricacies of the universe, from the grandeur of celestial bodies to the complexity of DNA, signify a design that points toward a Creator. However, despite this evident design, some still reject the idea of a higher power, attributing the universe's existence to chance.

Even during Jesus' time, numerous miracles were witnessed by many, demonstrating the divine power working through Him. However, despite seeing these miracles firsthand, not everyone believed in His divinity. This disbelief persisted even among those who were initially amazed by His miracles, leading to events like the crowd's shouts for His crucifixion.

The reluctance to believe despite witnessing miracles stems from various reasons. Some anticipated a different kind of Messiah who would bring immediate change, while others, like the religious leaders, were blinded by their own pride and prejudices. Their refusal to acknowledge the truth in front of them echoes the biblical story of Cain, who resented his righteous brother, Abel.

The essence lies in the understanding that belief surpasses mere observation. It requires an inner acceptance and conviction that goes beyond empirical evidence. Faith, as the means to reconnect with God, is the pivotal factor. It was through the disobedience of man in the garden that communion with God was lost, and it took the submission of Jesus in another garden to restore it.

Indeed, faith is the bridge that reunites the spiritual being with its Creator. God ordained faith as the path for humanity to seek and find Him, paving the way for a restored relationship, lost since the garden of Eden.

Therefore, it's accurate to say that "seeing is not believing." Countless have seen but haven't believed, while many have believed without physical proof. Contrary to worldly wisdom, the act of believing without seeing is what leads to encountering the glory of God and ultimately dwelling in His kingdom.

In essence, faith plays a fundamental role. Hebrews 11:6 encapsulates this truth, emphasizing that to approach God, one must believe in His existence and His willingness to reward those earnestly seeking Him. Thus, true belief, rooted in faith, is what truly matters in the pursuit of understanding and connecting with God.

I am new to the bible world and i have to learn more about gods existence. As of now I am using THE ONE Bible app to start my journey to god.

[ProDeo]

I am new to the bible world and i have to learn more about gods existence. As of now I am using THE ONE Bible app to start my journey to god.

Hi and welcome.

I am nitpicking of course but still curious to know why in your last sentence you write the name of God in lower case contrary to the full text.