What Religion the State Part II

[RabbiKnife]

Halls cherry and a slug of heated Dr Pepper!

Good for what ails you!

[IMINXTC]

As another forum bites the dust.  All good things...

[RabbiKnife]

Nah….

[Fenris]

Maybe he knows something that we don't.

[Athanasius]

Gnocchisticism surely

[RabbiKnife]

Gnocchisticism surely

Marinara, beef, Alfredo, brown butter, or clam sauce?

I think you are right about the special secret dumpling knowledge, though…

Those cowboys and their wheat pasta alternative lifestyles…

[Fenris]

Gnocchisticism surely

We call them "Shlishkes".

[RandyPNW]

No, they are not Christians, and thus are given greater latitude by God when there are extenuating circumstances and issues of religious ignorance--

Yes, the "enemies" of the state are always "not Christians". Even if they are Christians, just the "wrong kind" or with the "wrong beliefs". Catholics and Protestants slaughtered each other over just this.

There never was a true Israel, the Chosen Nation, because they fell into idolatry and sin. The Jewish Bible records that Hebrews fought against each other, and slaughtered each other. Obviously, their stated "beliefs" under the Law were of no consequence, because they followed whatever religion they wanted to follow at the time.

All of the nations outside of Israel were "pagans." How convenient! They must've thought that only their God was the true God, and everybody else's God was false?

If the Church is corrupt in our time, it's time to fix it--not remove it for something less Christian!

I have a great idea. How about fixing "the Church" before giving it the power over entire countries?

David didn't wait to fix the mess King Saul made before him. Hezekiah and Josiah didn't wait to clean up the idolatry in the land, and set right in to disestablish paganism and idolatry in an evident theocratic government.

[RandyPNW]

In order to maintain a consistency of social order, beliefs will need to be codified into law. Changing those laws is especially difficult as there's a theological dimension to them, and this implies, in a theocracy, if a law is changed, that the law was codified in error on the basis of misunderstanding. This is a problem for the state, which claims to be led directly by God, even if by proxy, i.e., a religious class speaking on behalf of God. Of course, such a state would simply start talking about abrogation. Hence, from this reality flows a concept of pure Christian theology, which would just so happen to be the theological position of the state.

Being "led by God" is not an exact science. We "see thru a glass darkly," ie we stumble our way along, being hampered by the contamination of our physical and spiritual being. We must follow righteousness with dim eyesight, but were mercifully given some distinct guidelines to keep us on track.

Creeds do us well, in keeping both government and society in alignment with God's Spirit, so that we can frame our laws well enough to keep society moral and spiritually active.

Creeds aren't the basis of lawful order. They're declarations of faith around which faith communities are built.

I believe political authorities utilized their own religious understanding as well as professional clerics to aid them in pursuing the right goals for society. The creeds were the foundation for Christian education, whether for the king, the priest, or the people.

What you mean to say is that Christian empire was not able to tolerate beliefs it believed were antithetical to empire, and which threatened the seat of (political) power.

Right, certain religious corruptions robbed Christianity of its spiritual power. And thus, the very energy driving moral living could be lost if certain theological distinctions were lost.

For example, if Christians were led to believe the one true God was the God of Islam then the fruit of Christian love would be lost, and the Church would become just another ethnic ambition to rule the world. It was important to God that society serve Him alone as God, lest His blessing be lost upon a people who choose to follow the wrong Spirit.

I believe there is only one God, though there are many claims to Godhood. The important matter is that the true God takes us into a true spirituality that enables us to overcome our selfish ambitions. Without true religion, the Church itself would indeed be just another empire waging war for wealth and vanity.

If a Christian state enforces a standard (civic) religion, then any practice of religion outside of that standard is by default paganism, heretical, etc.

I don't believe so, no. A monarchy can be Christian. A democracy can be Christian. Even a social democracy can be Christian. However, a communist state cannot be Christian since by definition it is atheistic.

So a Christian State may learn, along the way, that as it corrupts, and it inevitably does, that it is helped by adopting checks and balances, republics, several branches of government--nothing wrong with this. Christian States rise and fall, and we have to deal with it at whatever state of maturity it exits, whether in ascendancy or in decline.

Quaint affirmations of the morality of non-Christians don't get you anywhere in a theocracy proper.

I'm not throwing "tidbits to the pagans." I'm stating, as a matter of necessity, that Christians must deal with a myriad of different times and circumstances, whether in good times or bad times, whether due to the need for immigrants to find a home, or out of the need to aid minorities who preexist in Christian lands. People of other religions can be moral. That is a fact, and one that I very much believe in, quite sincerely.

There would be no constitutional rights for non-Christians insofar as 'freedom of thought and conscience' are concerned, because these require freedom of speech and act, which the state would firmly deny to anyone who didn't affirm state beliefs. In fact, the very concept of 'freedom of thought' is Orwellian, as if the state controls the thoughts of those unfortunate enough to find themselves within it.

On the contrary, there were times in Christian history, when Christians were not paranoid of Jews, that they actually accepted Jews as they were, and really admired them. They, of course, wanted them to convert to Christianity. But they understood why they didn't, and didn't judge them.

The failure of Christian States does not imply they were "failed systems." If that was true, then there would be no system left to try in world history, since all religious and political systems have failed regularly.

Times of prejudice and oppression of minorities who lived within acceptable moral limits do not mean that Christian States cannot repent, reform, and return to tolerance of other religions and peoples.

These are fancy ideals you have, but the reality of the state you're describing is authoritarian.

No, even the US and the UK have been examples of "Christian States," and perhaps a much lower level of "theocracy." They ruled with Constitutional governments, guided by various checks and balances, had tolerance for minorities, and yet favored Christian theology and morality. None of this was "authoritarian," although pagans have entered our countries and claimed that our Christian laws are in their eyes "authoritarian," simply because they want to be gay, abort their children, or follow Satan.

And you would have been jailed or executed for suggesting the church was in need of repentance or spiritual revival, even if it did.

That is patently absurd, unless you're referring to times when the Church was in decline, or when Christian States had fallen on hard times. Whenever a State falls into corruption, calling for its reform puts one in danger.

I'm saying there have only been so-called Christian states.

So we're back up to 100% denial that there were "Christian States?"

I'm saying that Christians need to quit with the political ambition, as if the Christianising of a country is going to make it better. History shows us that it won't.

History shows us that no political system has 100% success all the time. It shows that all political systems, and all religious political systems, regularly fail. It shows that short of God's Kingdom, *every political system,* no matter how good, will always fail. But that shouldn't stop us from pursuing the best political system available.

And if my favored system isn't available, then we'll just have to make do. After all, the Church was born into the pagan Roman Empire, and that didn't stop them from pursuing a Christian State. Did they pursue a Christian State? Obviously, that is what resulted.

This is nice and all, but 'the power of Christ' has never ensured a just society, and usually the exact opposite for anyone who wasn't part of the religious in-crowd.

The power of Christ is here not to save all, but to save some. We pursue the best system possible, and wish for the salvation of all. But we know that won't happen.

'Christians should' and 'Christians do' are two entirely different epistemic propositions. I'm starting to wonder if you're trolling, or if you're writing things without having thought them through.

If you can't tell I'm sincere, then perhaps the message isn't for you? I've been on a number of forums, both moderated and unmoderated, both Christian and semi-Christian, and I've *never* been kicked off of a forum permanently, and certainly not for being a "troll." I've been doing this for more than 20 years. At almost 70 years old I have nothing at all to gain by "trolling," unless it's in a nearby lake!

[RandyPNW]

I agree that the Christian State has gone the same way as Israel's Theocracy.

Well then, let it be a lesson.

Besides, Israel was a called Theocracy by God Himself.

We however are a different nation -

9 But you are a chosen race, a royal priesthood, a holy nation, a people for his own possession, that you may proclaim  the excellencies of him who called you out of darkness into his marvelous light. 10 Once you were not a people, but now you are God's people; once you had not received mercy, but now you have received mercy.

No geology.

No politics.

Purpose : that you may proclaim the excellencies of him who called you out of darkness into his marvelous light.

No politics in Christian States??

Name one verse in the NT where we (Jesus followers) are called to create a Theocracy.

I'll give you three.

Matt 6.33 But seek first his kingdom and his righteousness, and all these things will be given to you as well.
Matt 21.43 Therefore I tell you that the kingdom of God will be taken away from you and given to a people who will produce its fruit.
1 Tim 2. I urge, then, first of all, that petitions, prayers, intercession and thanksgiving be made for all people— 2 for kings and all those in authority, that we may live peaceful and quiet lives in all godliness and holiness. 3 This is good, and pleases God our Savior, 4 who wants all people to be saved and to come to a knowledge of the truth.

[ProDeo]

Name one verse in the NT where we (Jesus followers) are called to create a Theocracy.

I'll give you three.

Matt 6.33 But seek first his kingdom and his righteousness, and all these things will be given to you as well.
Matt 21.43 Therefore I tell you that the kingdom of God will be taken away from you and given to a people who will produce its fruit.
1 Tim 2. I urge, then, first of all, that petitions, prayers, intercession and thanksgiving be made for all people— 2 for kings and all those in authority, that we may live peaceful and quiet lives in all godliness and holiness. 3 This is good, and pleases God our Savior, 4 who wants all people to be saved and to come to a knowledge of the truth.

No politics mentioned, just individual Christian life.

[IMINXTC]

And I highly expect the discussion to merge with that of US politics as elections draw near. Voting one's conscience is one thing but allowing one's self to be cajoled into a "Theocratic" mindset is quite another.

[Fenris]

There never was a true Israel, the Chosen Nation, because they fell into idolatry and sin.

There's no such thing as "true Israel". It's an invented term. There is only Israel, sometimes good and sometimes bad. You have this warped view of Israel being the worst nation in the world, and it isn't true. Israel's neighbors in the times of the bible, or even the Roman era, behaved far worse. It's just that God has higher expectations of Israel because we should know better. See Amos 3:2. 

The Jewish Bible records that Hebrews fought against each other, and slaughtered each other. Obviously, their stated "beliefs" under the Law were of no consequence, because they followed whatever religion they wanted to follow at the time.

And yet you have this fantasy of a true "Christian theology". Do you know how badly Christians have treated one another? Let alone religious minorities.

All of the nations outside of Israel were "pagans." How convenient! They must've thought that only their God was the true God, and everybody else's God was false?

Um yeah, this is what the bible says actually. So I don't know what you point is.

David didn't wait to fix the mess King Saul made before him. Hezekiah and Josiah didn't wait to clean up the idolatry in the land, and set right in to disestablish paganism and idolatry in an evident theocratic government.

You're not David or Hezekiah. Quite the opinion of yourself you have here.

[Fenris]

I'll give you three.

Matt 6.33 But seek first his kingdom and his righteousness, and all these things will be given to you as well.
Matt 21.43 Therefore I tell you that the kingdom of God will be taken away from you and given to a people who will produce its fruit.
1 Tim 2. I urge, then, first of all, that petitions, prayers, intercession and thanksgiving be made for all people— 2 for kings and all those in authority, that we may live peaceful and quiet lives in all godliness and holiness. 3 This is good, and pleases God our Savior, 4 who wants all people to be saved and to come to a knowledge of the truth.

Sorry bro. I know your own bible better than you do.

John
Jesus said, “My kingdom is not of this world".

and also

Luke
When asked by the Pharisees when the kingdom of God would come, Jesus replied, “The kingdom of God will not come with observable signs. Nor will people say, ‘Look, here it is,’ or ‘There it is.’ For you see, the kingdom of God is in your midst.”

[Athanasius]

On the contrary, there were times in Christian history, when Christians were not paranoid of Jews, that they actually accepted Jews as they were, and really admired them. They, of course, wanted them to convert to Christianity. But they understood why they didn't, and didn't judge them.

So then you're writing things without having thought your ideas through?

You keep talking about your 70 years as if they're a guarantee of anything, so okay, what are your examples? Let's move beyond this mile wide inch deep target you've been hitting.